Ukrainian Academic transcript

[dbneeley]

1. No American University or company will care if the document is called вкладыш к диплому or a Архивная Справка.  They only look for course name, hours and grades.  So which ever is easiest for former student to obtain; then get that one.

Actually, many look for far more than course name, hours and grades. In many cases, the actual academic program is compared to see if the courses are actually equivalents in content to what is taught in the U.S.

This is true when someone attempts to qualify to practice medicine and who was trained abroad, for example. I understand that various other programs have similar approaches, but I am mostly familiar with medicine since my wife is a physician and we contemplated the possibility of her emigrating at one time, so I looked into it.

David

[ML]

Yes, I know your point David, but I was attempting  to indicate  that where the two documents had the same (limited) info that I specified, then the American end wouldn't care which document they received.

[mies]

Mies, thanks for your input.

Let me try to state my ideas in shorter form.

1. No American University or company will care if the document is called вкладыш к диплому or a Архивная Справка.  They only look for course name, hours and grades.  So which ever is easiest for former student to obtain; then get that one.

2. No American University or company expects to get an original document.  They know that all documents they receive will come off the copy machine of the former university.

sure, I understood what you were saying from the beginning, and I agree with your viewpoint. What both Lily (I will take a liberty to assume it) and myself were doing - we were providing information via Wayne for his step-daughter. Since she is relatively inexperienced in these matters, we felt it was important to explain to her the differences between various documents, so that she knows which documents to request from her university.

[Wayne]

I have seen the little grade book. It would be terrible to lose it!  But what if the Professor puts one grade into the little book--an another on the paper turned into the department?  Which would have the final say?

In our case, we are interested in transferring courses to the new university. As I was told, they would be evaluated on a course by course level.  For example, a certain number of credits are required in Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Math, etc.  Some courses could be transferred as electives.

A pre-med BA or BS degree does NOT require a certain major.  Only a certain number of credits in each science, etc. The major can be anything.  I looked at the only three Universities in Michigan with medical schools. (Yes, we call them schools!) About 30% or students who are accepted have degrees in Biology. There are a larges number of majors, all with lower percents of students being accepted.  The overall GPA is extremely important!

If for example, you are a Biology major.  This major will require about two times as many Biology credits as are required for the medical school acceptance. The science classes will be more difficult for most people. If you can take easier classes, you will likely get higher grades, assuming the same amount of work.  Also, science classes have lab sections which can take a very large amount of extra time.

So you need to think about a lot of different things!  I see also that the various types of FSU documents contain the same information.

Also, legalization of documents might not be necessary for use in USA. Can anyone touch on this point?

[mies]

Wayne, I will not give you specific advices, because I have not personally done this (never applied nor been accepted to a medical school in US, though have applied and was accepted to ukrainian medical school). But I would advise you clarifying the following:

1) will a medical (graduate?) school accept her/consider her application as valid if she submits her BSc degree from medical school in Ukraine? without completing a BSc degree in USA.

2) Does her medical school in Ukraine issue a BSc degree after 4 years of education?

3) normally, schools are more willing to transfer credits for minor courses, or electives, and less willing to transfer credits for major courses. Many schools in USA specifically say they do not transfer major core courses.
If she will go to BSc program in Biology in USA -  the biology/chemistry disciplines will be her core/major courses, and not electives. If she applies to a different program - she may transfer her biology/chemistry/physics courses as electives, but it may make her chances weaker during application to medical school.

In any case - she will not be able to transfer all the courses from her program in Ukraine. She will need to take at least the core courses. How many semesters is this going to be? 3? 4? more? and that is the "best case" scenario.


What I am thinking here - you should not become fixated on credits transfer, and you definitely should explore various options. Applying to US medical school with BSc, or even MSc degree from Ukrainian medical school - could be one of these options.

P.S. and yes, I do know that you call them schools: medical school, law school, school of engineering etc. DUH?!  
P.P.S. our (FSU) professors never make a mistake of putting different grade into the "grade book" and the "grade sheet".

[mies]

If for example, you are a Biology major.  This major will require about two times as many Biology credits as are required for the medical school acceptance. The science classes will be more difficult for most people. If you can take easier classes, you will likely get higher grades, assuming the same amount of work.  Also, science classes have lab sections which can take a very large amount of extra time.

I think you are misinterpreting the motives for the science courses requirements. It's not as much about GPA per se. And it's not about time spent in lab or studying. If doing things right - any discipline will need great investment of time to master it: be it philosophy, sociology, or art. It just takes the different set of individual skills and predisposition. I, for example, was always good in natural sciences, including bio-medical. On the contrary, mastering cultural studies or law was much tougher task for me, and required more effort.

The science courses are needed because doctor needs to understand how body works to be able to cure it. For this - the knowledge of biology and chemistry are essential. Some physics - too. It's all intertwined together. If a student spent 4 years studying Roman history, and then comes to class and has to do spectrum chromatography, or identify the tissue type based on look of cells in the microscope (those are randomly taken examples, and may not apply to a specific medical school) - (s)he will definitely feel lost.
 
So the science requirement is not there just to show how hard-working the student is, but to prove that the student is well-equipped for medical school. I'm sure professors don't want to see their students fail the class/program.

[GalinaF]

Hi Wayne, my daughter (Sasha) studied journalism at St. Petersburg State University for 2.5 years (= 5 semesters), and then she was accepted as a transfer student at NYU. She had about 62 credits transferred towards her BA degree from NYU, so it took her two years to get her American degree. As it happened 6 years (time flies!) ago, some details might have slipped my mind. Anyway, what we did:

-   Sasha went to Assistant Dean of her department and clarified the number of hours per course she had taken. Then, she made a list in Russian of all these courses with total number of hours and her grades per semester and got it signed and stamped at the main office (деканат.) I don’t remember how she called that list in Russian. It could be «Академическая справка».

-   When I got a copy of that list, I looked through a number of websites trying to find similar courses taught in American universities. I translated the names of Sasha’s courses as close as possible to the names of real American courses and sent it back to my daughter. We called that list/paper “Transcript”.

-   My daughter changed some of my translations and brought both papers (in Russian and in English) to Department of English (кафедра английского языка) where somebody signed our translation and put an embossed stamp on it.

-   Actually, my daughter made a few copies of these papers. She had about five (?) papers in Russian signed and stamped and five (?) translations signed and stamped. Then, she put five sets of these papers in five envelopes, wrote down the address of her university, sealed them, and put stamps on the flap/the line of seal at the main office. She took three (?) envelopes to the US and left the others with her friends. In case her American school(s) would require her Russian university to send her transcripts directly to them, she was going to ask her friends to mail the envelope(s) from St. Petersburg as if it had been sent by the university. Honestly, I do not remember now whether her friends had to do that or not, but I remember that they had to obtain a letter of recommendation from her university teacher on an official form and mail it to NYU directly.

It took my daughter about 5 days (?) to complete that paperwork, and I don’t think that she paid anybody anything. I’m sure that she had a party with her friends though, but she would have it anyway (leaving them any papers or not leaving papers…)

Sasha took a few introductory journalism courses back in St. Petersburg and some of them were transferred, but she had to talk to somebody at Department of Journalism (NYU) and explain what exactly she had studied in Russia. We were lucky that nobody required any written descriptions of the courses she had taken. Also, she took three placement exams (expository writing, college math, and foreign language), and she tested out of these classes.

I can email you a copy of Sasha’s transcript. Just send me a PM with your email address.

[GalinaF]

... I would still advise you to find out with the university which courses they will agree to transfer credits, and which - not....

In case of NYU, they didn’t provide any information about what courses they would transfer before the applicant was actually admitted. But as far as I remember, there was a “threshold” – the maximum number of credits that could be counted towards a NYU degree. I think it was 64 (??) credits.

[GalinaF]

... Another question:  What about scholarships for Ukrainian students transfering here?  I see MSU and U of M have some programs.

We filled a FAFSA form online, and my daughter received a good scholarship from NYU, which was not enough to cover all the costs, but still it was money that we don’t have to pay back. But your step-daughter should receive her Green Card to be eligible to receive any financial aid through FAFSA.

[Wayne]

Thanks everyone!  What Galina had to say is probably closer to our situation. The university here requires at least 120 credits for a B.A. or B.S. degree. The last 60 credits need to be earned at this university, so the goal is to transfer about 60 credits.  Daugher will have completed four semesters by the time they come over, so that should equal about 60 credits.  I have as list of all the subjects from the University in Ukraine.

We are considering a major in Liberal Studies. This would have the most choices in various subjects, so all or almost all of the classes taken in Ukraine should transfer. The core classes that must be taken for this major are not so many credits. They can all be taken at the university center in our home town, so Daughter can live with us for the first two years instead of staying in a residence hall or apartment.

As long as Daughter can transfer at least 30 credits, she will be considered a "transfer student" and would be elgible for certain scholarships based on G.P.A. I see that Sasha (Galina's Daughter) did receive a scholarship. Daughter will have a green card shortly after they enter the country. A six month residencey is required for the in-state tutition rate.

Another consideration, since Daughter is a Ukrainian citizen, and the official language is Ukrainian, I don't see why not the Russian language classes could be considered for the foreigh language requirement? However, Daughter will have to take the English classes that are required for any B.A. or B.S. degree.
Most universities here have tests you can take to get credit for certain first year classes.

[ML]

A few points which may or may not be relevant to your situation Wayne.

First, even if she needs only 60 more to reach 120 to graduate, it may in fact take more than 60.  That is because there may be more than 60 that are of required courses which she will not have even after she transfers in several credits.

Second, in some states, a child or spouse immediately gets in state tuition rates if the other spouse already qualifies for in state tuition.

Third, in some states a student who starts taking classes while classified as out of state can NEVER qualify for in state status as long as they are students.

The six months you mention (can be a year or two in some states) requires that NO CLASSES be taken during that time period.

[dbneeley]

Third, in some states a student who starts taking classes while classified as out of state can NEVER qualify for in state status as long as they are students.

The six months you mention (can be a year or two in some states) requires that NO CLASSES be taken during that time period.

ML made some very good points. In some schools, though, those who are working at the school may receive in-state tuition regardless of their residence status--and some university jobs also offer free tuition as part of their compensation.

Thus, it may also be worth looking into whether the young lady can be some sort of teaching assistant in a Russian language program while she finishes her undergrad degree.

David

[Wayne]

I printed out the 6 or 7 pages about the residency requirements and will read them again. Both Wife and Daughter will need to take driver training first and get their license. The college is about 18 to 20 miles away. They will both need to practive driving, so that will take a while.

There are some scholarships that depend upon a certain high level GPA. I think she will qualify for a lower tutition rate based on this. The two years or so to complete the B.S won't be any problem. However, the medical school tutition, fees and books will be quite high.  It says 85% of medical students receive so form of student aid, loans, etc.

[dbneeley]

There are some scholarships that depend upon a certain high level GPA. I think she will qualify for a lower tutition rate based on this. The two years or so to complete the B.S won't be any problem. However, the medical school tutition, fees and books will be quite high.  It says 85% of medical students receive so form of student aid, loans, etc.

Wayne, I have known medical students in the U.S. who accumulated student loans of over a quarter million dollars--some even more than that!

One alternative might be a military scholarship if she can qualify for one. That would mean, I think, a four year commitment for active military service after graduation--during which she would qualify for her internship and quite likely a specialty, if I understand correctly. I am not sure about the situation for females in the Medical Corps of the various services, but it might be worth speaking with a recruiter about. In little if any more time than she would be spending in advanced training anyway, she may be able to be debt free by going that route. Otherwise, she could wind up with many years of slaving away to pay off student loans.

Of the services, were I going in as a physician I'd probably opt for the Navy in her case, although the Air Force doesn't have service in so many advanced bases near the war zones, unless I am mistaken. (The Navy provides medical support for the Marine Corps, so they have medical facilities in any war area where there are Marines. However, their other medical facilities are generally in some really gorgeous places around the world.)

There are also some programs where medical students get grants in return for agreeing to work in "underserved" communities after graduation--usually smaller towns and cities. Again, it is possible to avoid heavy indebtedness in that way if it has any appeal.

[Wayne]

We will have to wait until they get here and see what happens. Daughter will need to have excellent grades in order to get accepted to medical school here.

I saw some interesting facts:

LEADING THE NATION
MSU leads in study abroad and in number of international students.


    MSU ranks in the top 10 for both study abroad participation and international student enrollment, according to Open Doors 2010, the annual report by the Institute of International Education.  For the sixth year in a row, MSU ranked No. 1 for study abroad participation among public universities. During the 2008-09 academic year, the most recent year for which data are available, 2,610 MSU students studied abroad. Nearly one in three MSU undergraduates has studied abroad.  In addition, for the 2009-10 academic year, international students represented 11 percent of MSU’s population. With 5,358 international students, MSU ranks eighth overall in international student enrollment.  According to Open Doors, international students invest more than $600 million in the Michigan economy.