Should all marriages be 50/50

[mies]

Now, here is something that is rather perplexing. The MIL of the first guy is totally on his side. He brought his son to UA and he stayed with MIL. When daughter brought her son, she stayed with a friend because the mother would not permit her to stay in her house. My wife says the embarrassment is too much for her (MIL) to bear.

You are talking of a 26yo woman as of a toy-dog, a min-pin or chihuahua. Mother made her marry, mother did not approve her divorce, mother does not let her stay in her house. Mother this, mother that. Could you for a moment consider possibility that this young woman cannot forgive her mother for taking away/ruining her youth and marrying her to older guy? Why wouldn't you consider the possibility that her mother is manipulative and unpleasant woman, and that her daughter does not want to see her or stay with her?
Normal mothers are always on the side of their children, and if the child feels unhappy in marriage - a good mother will and should always support her child's divorce decision. The fact that her mother puts her personal plans before her daughter's happiness tells me much about the distribution of roles in their family, and the whole story of 18yo being married to a 36yo guy.


By the way, mother not letting her daughter stay in their common house, and depriving her daughter of rightful inheritance tells me tons of her mother's character too.
The way real estate was distributed in USSR - families received apartment from state, the size of apartment depended on the number of people in the family. So, let's say family with kids would get a bigger apartment than family without kids. To protect kids' rights, their official "residency" location is the same as their parents, as they get their first passport their residency remains the same. All people who are listed "resident" in the apartment can decide on the apartment's use and fate, and can live there, and cannot be forced out of it. The apartment were privatized after USSR dissolved, but the logic is still the same. Young woman probably lost her residency in her mom's apartment at the moment when she obtained US citizenship. Or maybe her mom processed the documents getting her off the documents, using convenient fact that she got rid of her daughter by sending her to USA to live with the guy twice her daughter's age.

It's like, imagine, Muzh, that you are again 18, live with your father, and the house you live in is owned jointly by you and your father. Then your father tells you "dear son, why don't you go to work in New York, I found a nice job there for you." You, being respectful son, follow advice, move to New York, work same job for 7 years, but the job is lousy and wears you off, so you quit and get another job. Then when you decide to visit your dad, - he tells you "you can't stay in this house, because you quit the job I wanted you to do. You have disappointed me and lost your share in this house."  On what grounds did he (in this super-hypothetical situation) deprived you of your property, Muzh?

[Muzh]

Mies, you are a sharp cookie. Please understand that I'm not taking any sides. I'm just telling you what happened. You are 100% accurate about her mother being manipulative. Even my friend, the ex, says that.


I will add that my friend harbors no hatred or ill will at his ex at all. He has mentioned that he would like to help her as much as he can. I can tell you that she is a very confused young woman right now.



That is why I stated I was perplexed at the MIL's reaction.


That mother's will always take the side of their daughters is an understatement. I can write pages of instances like this where that MIL knows for a fact the daughter is making an injustice and still side with her daughter. From personal experience.

[mies]

I understand that you are not taking sides, Muzh. My point is that maybe her Mom has at least 2 more motives, other than "shame" to force her daughter out of their common house, and maybe a third possibility exists - when daughter is not on speaking terms with her mom because she's had enough of her mom's manipulations.

To tell the truth, in Russia or Ukraine few people would care if the young woman gets divorced, there is no peer pressure on her mom, nothing to be "ashamed of." In my opinion, the "shame" story is completely made up.

Normally we operate under assumption that parents act in the best interest of their young children. But not all parents are good, and there could be great discrepancy in the definition of the "best interest" by some parents, their children, and general public.

[Boethius]

I will add that my friend harbors no hatred or ill will at his ex at all. He has mentioned that he would like to help her as much as he can. I can tell you that she is a very confused young woman right now.

Didn't he take custody of the children?  And he isn't paying her alimony, either, is he? 

[Muzh]

Didn't he take custody of the children?  And he isn't paying her alimony, either, is he?

He has physical custody of his son even though he has offered for her to spend equal time with her son and she is doing just that. Also, he is paying her alimony for two years but was not mandated by court. He wants her to get on her feet so she can be a good mother to his son.

[mies]

He has physical custody of his son even though he has offered for her to spend equal time with her son and she is doing just that. Also, he is paying her alimony for two years but was not mandated by court. He wants her to get on her feet so she can be a good mother to his son.

you mean to THEIR son, right?
Sure, he doesn't have any hard feelings for her, only suddenly it is "his son" and she is a "bad mother." How interesting. 

Is there any information about alimony amount?
 

[Muzh]

His son, her son, their son; it depends who is talking.


Divulging alimony amount to a non-family member or lawyer? This is America. This things are not talked about in public.  IOW, I have no clue.

[mies]

His son, her son, their son; it depends who is talking.


Divulging alimony amount to a non-family member or lawyer? This is America. This things are not talked about in public.  IOW, I have no clue.

He can give her a 100 a month and boast that he pays her alimony so that she can be a good mother to HIS son. I spend 100/mo on cat food and litter.

If he indeed said the words about "she can be a good mother to my son" I do not think he is honest, kindhearted, nice, and supportive as he claims to be. I do not believe him.

Also, if she doesn't have solid income, and was not able to get good education/job due to the fact that she was raising their child, and they've been married for 7 years (not 2 or 3), is it very common that the court tells husband should not pay any alimony to his ex-wife? I am not familiar with this side of US society, and hopefully will never be, but it made me really curious. Because in Europe laws seem to be very different and much more favorable for women.

[Muzh]

Mies, I don't want to make the same mistake by making a lot of assumptions.


I can tell you one thing. I know this guy well. We've been co-workers for quite a few years. They were at our house many times and we went to theirs many times. 


It came as a total sock when we heard she moved out. Everyone was in shock. THEN, we found out that she was associated with this not-so-nice Ukrainian engineer, a classic day 731 bride and she has boasted about it.


What happened between those two is a matter of speculation but, you don't have to be a psychic to know what happened.


In NY you don't have to pay alimony in no-fault cases. What amount of money he is giving her I don't know bt I'll speculate that $100 a month would be extremely low based on this guy's disposition.


Let's face it, not all AM wo marry UW are these penny pinching, greedy bastards.


This I know for a fact, he calls himself the black sheep of the family because he did not go into financing as his brothers did and he is NOT into amassing a fortune.


The tragedy here is that this poor girl was NOT ready for any kind of marriage, even worse, one from a different culture. She did what her mother told her to do. I understand that while she lived in her village her mother would always demean her in any way she could. Because of this she never had any kind of relationship with any guy. And she found an older (choose you adjective here) in this Ukrainian engineer that filled her head with stuff she thought she could do, stuff that you do when you are single, childless and unattached.


THIS is the problem with these short-term, long distance relationships.


BTW, and her words, her son was not giving her any satisfaction. You explain that to me.

[mies]

Mies, I don't want to make the same mistake by making a lot of assumptions.

I also do not want to make assumptions. However I do believe that when a marriage fails, both people have contributed to this outcome, one way or another. I do not think that the "marriage" should be akin to prison. It can be fun, and ideally - it is fun. Marriage is what the two make out of it. Problems can start when there is a imbalance of power, and different expectations and wishes. The person who has more power builds marriage the way s/he sees it, whereas the dreams of the other person are neglected. If you close the water boiler tight, and start heating it slowly (or not so slowly), sooner or later steam will find its way out. If you bend metal or plastic spoon too much - it will break. The fact that husband (and his friends) thought things were great and did not see the breakup coming might as well mean that he did not know what was going on in his wife's heart/soul, and did not give an effort to listen to her and learn. Maybe he thought it wasn't necessary, maybe he thought all was perfect because it was going according to his plan and he was receiving in marriage everything he wanted.

***

A story of loyal worker and his boss.

Imagine a boss who has a worker; the worker is excellent, does his job faster and better than anyone else. His salary is quite modest. Sometimes the worker complains that the workload is too big, sometimes he has to work weekends, and he can use occasional day off. The boss believes it isn't necessary, the worker is very loyal and boss is sure the worker will not quit. Why is he sure? Because this worker was hired when he was nobody, and the boss believes the worker is grateful and emotionally attached to his firm, because boss gave him nice office and comfortable office chair, and even put a microwave, fridge, and tea/coffee at the kitchen that this worker can use for free, he also gives him giftcard to attend a gym once in a while (the worker does not have time to go to gym because of large workload, but still a nice gesture from the boss). The worker is grateful and emotionally attached to the firm. Then one day he gets a call from recruiting firm. They promise him promotion, double or triple his current salary, and more generous vacation time. The worker is loyal to his current boss, but he cannot speak openly "I got a better offer, would you promote me?" because this would offend his boss and the boss is too bossy for an open dialogue. So the worker asks for raise, he asks for vacation, he wants at least to have his weekends. But boss is happy, he does not see any problem coming. Most importantly, he does not think that the worker will quit, he is sure in his own power and knows the worker has no power. And then one day: a big surprise.   
Moral: was the worker disloyal, or was the boss blind/deaf?

Your two stories Muzh actually are very relevant to Billy's plan. He thinks that he found a perfect clay to produce the marriage of his dreams. I am doubtful about success of his plan because A does not look like perfect clay to me, and because B isn't the type of person who can make a clay out of human being and then make it back a human being, but new and transformed. His hopes and dreams are too evident, and this is why it is so easy to manipulate him, whereas he thinks that he is the Decider.

I cannot explain to you words of this young woman. I don't know if she said those words to you directly, or her husband told you she said them. I don't know the context, the rest of the dialogue, what she did the day and month before she said it, how old was her son at that time, and so on. I also cannot explain it because i do not have children. I do not understand how a child can be "satisfaction". A love and joy? definitely. Satisfaction? hmm. I also do not understand and pity people who in modern society have nothing in life, not because they could not, but because they are lazy and dumb, and the only thing they have is their children, so they choose to be proud and satisfied of themselves because they produced a child, and now they can teach others how to live and be a good member of society.

[Muzh]

More assumptions. The boss story you have written is very true and I have no arguments. However, you seem to go by the fallacy that the woman is the delicate flower and the man is the brute who has the power.


You'd be surprised that for centuries some of these delicate flowers had total control over the supposedly wielders of power.


In this case in specific, you could be absolutely correct. There is also a 50% chance you are wrong.

[mies]

More assumptions. The boss story you have written is very true and I have no arguments. However, you seem to go by the fallacy that the woman is the delicate flower and the man is the brute who has the power.

You'd be surprised that for centuries some of these delicate flowers had total control over the supposedly wielders of power.

In this case in specific, you could be absolutely correct. There is also a 50% chance you are wrong.

True I am not saying this is the case of your friend.
But answer me this question: have those "delicate flowers" who over centuries manipulate their husbands ever left their husbands to become "lost and confused"?

It is normal for a person to use power when he can. He can do it with the best intentions: because he thinks, and rightfully so, that his wife is new in foreign country, does not speak local language fluently, is too young and does not know how life runs, does not understand finances, does not know how the marriage works and what is needed for marriage to work, and so on.

Even if his wife was manipulating him, and he was unsuspecting, it is also partly his fault - for being too weak 

[Muzh]

True I am not saying this is the case of your friend.
But answer me this question: have those "delicate flowers" who over centuries manipulate their husbands ever left their husbands to become "lost and confused"?

Did I say they were dumb?   

[Boethius]

Weren't both of the cases you described, Muzh, those of young girls (18 or 19) marrying middle aged guys?  And then starting families very soon?
 
It would seem to me, based on this and your descriptions, that these men were primarily concerned with their own well being/happiness.  A man who would want the best for his wife would have sent a woman that young to upgrade her education, to learn a little about life.  He wouldn't be impregnating her and turning her, for all intents and purposes, into a housewife.
 
 

[Muzh]

Weren't both of the cases you described, Muzh, those of young girls (18 or 19) marrying middle aged guys?  And then starting families very soon?
 
It would seem to me, based on this and your descriptions, that these men were primarily concerned with their own well being/happiness.  A man who would want the best for his wife would have sent a woman that young to upgrade her education, to learn a little about life.  He wouldn't be impregnating her and turning her, for all intents and purposes, into a housewife.

Oh boy, it seems that I'll have to get into a lot of details which I didn't want to do.


Let's talk briefly about the girl mentioned above. She had her basic education in UA when she arrived here. Her husband asked her if she wanted to go to school. Keep in mind that my friend is part of the reserves and he would spend six months at the airforce base because of the war on terror. She would go to the city where the AFB was and she would stay with her inlaws which lived outside the AFB and he would come home everyday. Eventually, she went to school (at his urging) and tried to get an Associate degree in some technical field in medicine; which is what she wanted. I have no idea if she finished it. Just to be clear he did encouraged her and even asked my wife to talk to her.


The other lady you mentioned already had the equivalent of an MBA and her husband was trying to get her degree validated. She was 22 at the time she got here.


BTW, both were fluent in English; you could not tell the usual Russian sexy accent most guys here rave about.


Yes, both men were middle-aged; on was 38 and the other one was 42.

It would seem to me, based on this and your descriptions, that these men were primarily concerned with their own well being/happiness.

Have I done a horrible job in describing these incidents? I don't think I ever hinted at this. I'll have to go back and re-read what I wrote.

[Boethius]

Have I done a horrible job in describing these incidents? I don't think I ever hinted at this. I'll have to go back and re-read what I wrote.

It is more likely the way I read it, rather than your descriptions.
 
I think in most cases, where a much older man marries a very young woman (under 25, with say, a 15 to 20 year age difference), marital bliss will be fleeting.   Of course there are exceptions, but they're rare.  What individuals usually want, at such different stages in their lives, is very different, and that becomes more apparent with time.   

[BC]

Of course there are exceptions, but they're rare.  What individuals usually want, at such different stages in their lives, is very different, and that becomes more apparent with time.

I guess one could say 'It grows on you'.

"The hair that was on top started growing out of your nose and ears."
-Peg Bundy / Married with Children

The series is on crackle.com

[mies]

Oh boy, it seems that I'll have to get into a lot of details which I didn't want to do.


Let's talk briefly about the girl mentioned above. She had her basic education in UA when she arrived here. Her husband asked her if she wanted to go to school. Keep in mind that my friend is part of the reserves and he would spend six months at the airforce base because of the war on terror. She would go to the city where the AFB was and she would stay with her inlaws which lived outside the AFB and he would come home everyday.

so in addition to learning to please her husband she had to adjust and learn to please his parents too. Instead of one husband she had three foreign adults "helping her adjust" in the new country and instruct her into her "good wife" function.
Muzh, I have wonderful inlaws, and I love them as much as my own parents. But I would not want to live with them. Living with my parents I personally view as one of the worst nightmares possible. I know that not all people think this way, but in all honesty, there is more than one thing in this marriage that was not quite healthy, not only the huge age difference, too young age of wife, too early impregnated, etc etc. 
Would any man here be interested in relocating to Ukraine and living with his wife's inlaws? While his wife comes home in the evening to eat dinner, sleep together, and leave in the morning? I am also wondering how much time he spent with his child during 6 mo/year at the AFB? Is he still on same schedule today? How does it work out with having custody over child and being a good father? Or is the boy staying with inlaws while daddy has to work?

I will explain why I am asking. I know a russian girl here who married young, to a U.S. Army man only few years her senior. They were very much in love in the beginning, and still are. If not for their strong feelings, she wanted to leave on several occasions, and no other men were involved whatsoever. The main reason was that they had a child, and husband was never a real help because of his work schedule. Wife could not get her college degree for quite awhile, because she had to take care of child and household. If you add to this situation a pressure of living together with inlaws, a husband being twice her age, and no strong feelings from the beginning - the whole deal being arranged by "smart mom" - very few women would be able to endure that. Plus, my Russian friend moved to USA when she was 14, so she finished high school in USA, and was already a bit adjusted to life here, had her parents here. While your friend's wife was here all alone among foreigners.

[tfcrew]

Should all marriages be 50/50?
Actually, I think it has to be 100% from both.
Giving only 50% is doomed to failure.

[Faux Pas]

Should all marriages be 50/50?
Actually, I think it has to be 100% from both.
Giving only 50% is doomed to failure.

Perhaps I should explain the topic. This was a split from another topic where it seriously forked then, made two lefts and a right. The discussion du jour at the time of the split led me to that title. Long story short, the title was off the cuff and may or may not actually be the topic. 

[BC]

Isn't much of the 'draw' regarding foreign women, aside from looks, a desire for a certain amount of subservience?

Some men do enjoy playing King.

Even the 'White Knight' usually counts on a bit of indebtedness to gain favor.

The hair on my neck rises when I hear words like 'respect', 'teach', 'mold' etc when referring to a potential partner.

They may get along just fine for a while, but it will wear off at a certain point and then the trouble starts.  People are not static beings. 

[Muzh]

so in addition to learning to please her husband she had to adjust and learn to please his parents too. Instead of one husband she had three foreign adults "helping her adjust" in the new country and instruct her into her "good wife" function.

Mies, you are one tough cookie.


Mea culpa for not being more specific but I mentioned I didn't want to go into too many details.


Let's say most of your assumptions are off.


His parents are very liberal so they teaching her to be the "little woman" or the "good wife" would be a reach.


His stationing at the AFB was for two years and that was after she was here for about 3 years.
His son is going to kindergarten this year so that makes him 6. She came here about 9 years ago.


Point is, sometimes the husband is not necessarily the monster we hear about. His mistake was marrying a woman that young. It happened to me too with an AW.


Those are the risks you take when you get married. If you want a sure thing, buy GE stocks.

[mies]

...

Muzh, thank you for giving more details. I did not imply that a man or his parents are monsters. But I still think it is unhealthy for a fresh family to be living with parents. In this particular situation - there are both good side and a bad side to it. A good side is that a foreign woman does not feel lonely and has more people to take care of her, her social circle is automatically larger than 1 husband. The bad side is that she has very little "personal space" because there are too many people she has to share her house with, and even the house isn't really "hers," it's the house of other people who kindly allowed her to stay there for 2-3 years. 

I am not blaming her husband, and definitely not blaming his parents. I'm sure they meant the best, and also i'm sure the inlaws were great help to young mother and a kid. But the circumstances weren't too easy to deal with. I never lived with my parents longer than 2 weeks at a time since I turned 17. But i heard many stories back in Ukraine and Russia, when adult married people were complaining how hard it was for them to live with in-laws in early years of their marriage, and how that experience nearly ruined the marriage. In some cases the problem was too small apartment, in other cases - they lived in houses and space was not a problem, but still they weren't happy. Maybe in USA customs are different.