Dating AW (kisses, sex, qualities)

[Boethius]

Maher despises all religion.

As religions go, I do object to the cult like atmosphere of LDS. 

I knew a young gay man who told his LDS Church Elders (at their prodding, not his), living 600 miles from him, that he would not live his life as a lie.  Their "Christian" response was to hold a ceremony for him.  He attended, out of respect for his parents.  At the ceremony, he was, in essence, ex communicated.  His birth was wiped from LDS records, as was his baptism.  To them, officially, he no longer, and never, existed.

[Gator]

I knew a young gay man who told his LDS Church Elders (at their prodding, not his), living 600 miles from him, that he would not live his life as a lie.  Their "Christian" response was to hold a ceremony for him.  He attended, out of respect for his parents.  At the ceremony, he was, in essence, ex communicated.  His birth was wiped from LDS records, as was his baptism.  To them, officially, he no longer, and never, existed.

I have heard other such accounts.  I do not know why LDS is against gays so vehemently.  You would think the church would recognize it as it would free more women for the straight men.   

 
Maher is amusing.  He was joking about how Catholics (maybe it was LDS) protested gay marriages so much just to be sure that there were no gays at a wedding other than the priest providing the service.   

[alex330]

I knew a young gay man who told his LDS Church Elders (at their prodding, not his), living 600 miles from him, that he would not live his life as a lie.  Their "Christian" response was to hold a ceremony for him.  He attended, out of respect for his parents.  At the ceremony, he was, in essence, ex communicated.  His birth was wiped from LDS records, as was his baptism.  To them, officially, he no longer, and never, existed.

This must have been many years ago. It is extremely difficult to be excommunicated from the LDS church.
They even baptize dead people from other religions and keep their records on file.

They would have never "wiped" his records. The LDS church has the most extensive set of geneaology records in the world. They are currently working on Russian and Ukrainian records from before WWII.

[TheTraveler]

I read a book about Mitt Romney's biography last night, decided to go to the LDS church on Sunday.

you decided that 'handsome billionaire' is your type?  lol. can't blame you for that!

[Boethius]

This must have been many years ago. It is extremely difficult to be excommunicated from the LDS church.
They even baptize dead people from other religions and keep their records on file.

They would have never "wiped" his records. The LDS church has the most extensive set of geneaology records in the world. They are currently working on Russian and Ukrainian records from before WWII.

It was years ago, and I know the LDS Church has extensive genealogical records.  But his records as a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints were destroyed.   It doesn't mean the record of his birth doesn't exist elsewhere.

[Boethius]

BTW, I don't know about Russia, but the Church of LDS already has extensive genealogical records in Ukraine, going back to the 19th century.  But, they are not yet fully complete.
 
In Western Ukraine, most churches also have extensive records, many of which are archived in L'viv.

[ECOCKS]

Hmm, nothing wrong with mainstream LDS, it's the splinter groups that cause the bulk of the concern.

When people join freely and those who wish to leave are allowed to do so, ii have no concern with their ideology or practices.

I know a few Ukrainian gals who married or are dating LDS members and they seem happy enough.

Whatever floats your boat!

[Boethius]

The Church of LDS, though, does shun those who leave, and puts pressure on their family members.
 
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/start_here.html
 
(I got that link from a colleague who left the Church of LDS in mid life.  He was  an LDS bishop at the time.  He writes for that site).
 
PS - I agree, though, however one decides to live his/her life is his/her own business.

[alex330]

BTW, I don't know about Russia, but the Church of LDS already has extensive genealogical records in Ukraine, going back to the 19th century.  But, they are not yet fully complete.

My wife was asked to translate Ukrainian records for the church. Many are in poor condition and some use an older form of Cyrillic she says?

I know a few Ukrainian gals who married or are dating LDS members and they seem happy enough.

There are many RW married to LDS guys out in Utah. It seems to be a good mix of cultures and they are mostly happy.

The Church of LDS, though, does shun those who leave, and puts pressure on their family members.
 
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/start_here.html
 
(I got that link from a colleague who left the Church of LDS in mid life.  He was  an LDS bishop at the time.  He writes for that site).

Not sure about that. Like every religion it has faults, and I am sure every case is different. There is A LOT of misinformation and bitter people. It is an imperfect religion like all others.

I am what they call a "Jack Mormon". I left the church as did many of my brothers years ago and we have never been shunned.

[Boethius]

My wife was asked to translate Ukrainian records for the church. Many are in
poor condition and some use an older form of Cyrillic she says?

Could be OCS (Old Church Slavonic).  In Western Ukraine, some of the records are in Ukrainian, but using Latin, rather than Cyrillic, script.  It depends on the region, and the year.

I left the church as did many of my brothers years ago and we have never been
shunned.

That's good, but I know others who have had different experiences.
 
They gay man I mentioned has a sister living across the country.  She moved in her twenties, left the church.  She is a lesbian, but no one in the family but him knows.  As she is away from the community they grew up in (which has a fairly significant LDS presence), she lives her life, and, when she does visit, is not shunned.  The man I mentioned, though, still is, so much so, he rarely visits his parents, preferring to have them visit him.
 
The colleague who left in middle age was also shunned, and met with open hostility, probably because he initially wrote a lot online and was very critical of LDS beliefs.  He still has one sibling who refuses to speak to him.  But, he lives in a large city, so it's not a big issue for him.

FTR, I've also worked with a number of LDS church members who are active and happy in their faith.   
 
 


 

[Kuna]

Kuna, a very interesting opinion about the psychology of dating, sex and marriage.   The experience of my long years raises a couple of questions.  I recognize that I am old and hence old fashioned, but consider two points please.

Quote from: Kuna on 10 May 2012, 22:47:05
<blockquote>If the PERFECT girl meets the PERFECT BLOKE when he is in his *playing around* phase there is little she can do to get him to STOP the playing around (even if it only playing around with her).  </blockquote>

Please........ as if this never happened to you or any of your friends.    More than a hormonal reaction.  More than a second hand emotion.
 

Phil, I have a simplistic view of that "relationship cycle" basically because I think we (men) are simple... I'm sure women have MUCH more "planned for us".   

I've seen many occasions where men (including me) are in *playing around* phases and look like they are settling down.  I'm sure some of those do stay settled but I think that has little to do with the quality of the woman or her actions.  I've had some really standout female friends fail to capture the hearts of suitors who should have fallen for them head over heals - but didn't...  but from personal experience I think many of us are still *playing around* - even if it's just with one person for a while.

I have an ex I call my "Four Year Fling"...  she knew in the beginning she was a fling (I called her that - she thought it was "cute") because she lasted more than a month.  I can tell you this actually (though I can't tell you ALL)...  I remember telling a very close friend I was ending it with my FYF (F-ife not wife) on Day 26 when she was coming to my house for dinner...  On the Monday when I saw my friend he said, "How'd it go?"  I had to tell him I didn't end it because the sex was too good.

The relationship was OK... the sex was unbelievable... but I hadn't settled down... I was still playing around (in many ways). It ended after four years when she was demanding I settled down but I wasn't ready... it took a little while longer for me to get to that point in my life.

Perhaps there are still guys out there that don't enter a playing around phase at all.... they may be the ones that find the girl of their dreams and settle down before their loved ones might expect them to...  but I am certain the two phases exist for many of us and women can't bring us out of the playing around phase (but can push men OUT of the settling down phase).


BTW...  my advice to female friends is to try to work out whether a guy is in *playing around stage* by not having sex immediately.  A guy who wants to settle down will wait... men who are wanting to play around won't wait - there are more women to conquer.

The benefit of a woman not having sex early is:

1. She won't waste her attention on someone who's not REALLY interested in something permanent;
2. She'll be able to identify men who REALLY are interested, and;
3. Men will find it very easy to identify the woman he wants to settle down with when they meet such a woman.

Sexual Liberation has robbed women (and men) of this foresight.

 

Don't know about this either.    Sounds like a bus scroll - unless it reads "Settling Down"  the bus will never go to the Wedding Chapel.   
 
BTW, where is the love?  Or is it, who needs love;  just be grateful that you found someone willing to settle down with you.  It sounds like hanging a "Wife Vacancy" sign around one's neck.   
 
Maybe you are right, but is it right when we have a 50% divorce rate?  Ignore that last one as I believe courting and divorce are independent in most cases.

Gator, there is no love when men are playing around. 

I think those that are playing around that *settle* just because they are tired probably make up a fair proportion of broken marriages...

As for the "wife vacancy" sign or being "grateful someone is willing to settle down with you"... I don't think that's the case.  When someone is ready to settle down they will (or should) change their behaviour and start to think a little more before they act.  Obviously some don't... but we should hope most will.  Hopefully they'll find someone else who is serious... not just playing around.

FWIW.. I think MOST women *play around* differently than men...  and even the ones that want to play around like men do inevitably fail because intimacy created love in a woman... it just creates egos in men.

Anyway... my "out there" theories are useless to me now...  I've finally settled down.   

[Gator]

Kuna, thanks for responding.  I do not disagree with you: I am not sure of all of your points. 

Phil, I have a simplistic view of that "relationship cycle" basically because I think we (men) are simple... I'm sure women have MUCH more "planned for us".   

I certainly agree with a statement that women are complicated.  While they do indeed have "more planned for us," I sometimes question the logic of their planning.

FWIW.. I think MOST women *play around* differently than men...  and even the ones that want to play around like men do inevitably fail because intimacy created love in a woman... it just creates egos in men.

You may describe the masses, yet I know exceptions in both sexes exist. 

Anyway... my "out there" theories are useless to me now...  I've finally settled down.   

And I imagine a constant and profound  happiness that you never thought possible  The attentive wife.... the kids.....the house....the mortgage......the two cars....Saturdays at swim events and recitals.....the complete disaster in some men's eyes.   Yet in my eyes it was heaven.  BTW it continues.  Almost all my friends my age are grandfathers.  A whole new blissful chapter. 

[vwrw]

Kuna, I think your theory on kisses, sex, and marriages has many valid points. I absolutely agree with your observation that people who are ready to settle down are inclined to compromise, and they feel that  compromises are reasonable and worthwhile; whereas, those who are not ready to settle down they don't compromise. They just move on.

The only three points I have difficulty to reconcile with my experience and observations are

1)   When a man is open to *settling down* and he meets a women/girl who is ready to *settle down* then BINGO - it happens... there is no need for a decision – it {marriage, my guess} just happens.

2)   A guy who wants to settle down will wait {for sex to occur in distant future}... men who are wanting to play around won't wait - there are more women to conquer.

3)   Women that want to play around like men do inevitably fail because {physical?} intimacy created love in a woman.

I would like to highlight the importance of chemistry in the first point.  Examples  abound where both parties  to a relationship are ready to settle down, but they do not do it with each other because they do not have chemistry or it is not strong enough to make the marriage between them happen. Therefore, I would say when two people who are ready to settle down have chemistry, there is no need for a decision – marriage just happens.

The second is only true for men who are playing around for quantity. They want to get sex with ease and do not want to burden themselves with challenges.  There is another type of guys. Their ego is not satisfied with easy victories. They will court a lady as long as it takes to woo her. Yet, when she is conquered, they will move on, feeling no regret about the time and efforts they devoted to her during the courtship.

Physical  intimacy makes women more tolerant toward their men’ deficiencies and more neglectful to their misconducts. They become less critical of everything their men do and say, at least for a while. They may catch up after the sex spell fades. However, the tolerance and  the neglectfulness  are not the same as love.

[Lily]

 
 
BTW...  my advice to female friends is to try to work out whether a guy is in *playing around stage* by not having sex immediately.  A guy who wants to settle down will wait... men who are wanting to play around won't wait - there are more women to conquer.

The benefit of a woman not having sex early is:

1. She won't waste her attention on someone who's not REALLY interested in something permanent;
2. She'll be able to identify men who REALLY are interested, and;
3. Men will find it very easy to identify the woman he wants to settle down with when they meet such a woman.

Sexual Liberation has robbed women (and men) of this foresight.

 
Gator, there is no love when men are playing around. 

 

Kuna, it is very kind of you to offer some advice for us women. 
You mentioned having sex immediately. How immediately would it mean? 4th or 5th date in a couple of weeks - would that be qualified as ''immediately'' or not?
What would be your take on the opinion that if the man is only interested in sex with the woman, it does not matter when the sex occurs? If the man sees the woman as a sex-only, he may want to wait for a really extended period of time in order to finally get into her panties...but as soon as he initially did not envisioned her as his life companion, he would not want go any further than sex?
Also, what would you advise to a woman friend who would ask you how to understand whether her male friend actually sees her as a valid wife prospect?
 

[SANDRO43]

How immediately would it mean? 4th or 5th date in a couple of weeks - would that be qualified as ''immediately'' or not?

A question that would have made this man drool with self-satisfaction :

[Shostakovich]

What an asinine question - there is a moment for the first kiss and it's different from women-women.