Yulia might go ??

[lordtiberius]

Doesn't matter what you *think* just who has power by you own logic mind you

[lordtiberius]

The evidence was online
The evidence was secret.

She's guilty as hell

[GQBlues]

Doesn't matter what you *think* just who has power by you own logic mind you

???
 
Now that's what I classify as an injustice. There's got to be a law against that, no?

[SANDRO43]

However, the process for jury trials, or the legislative framework to provide for them, is yet to be established by legislation, and no Ukrainian government ever tackled the task, until Yanukovych, who introduced legislation about 15 months ago.

Which IINM logically means that such request - at the time of her trial - was inadmissible because the procedure was not in the Ukrainian books yet .

Fellows, isn't it rather pointless to discuss detailed judicial matters that are not within our grasp/knowledge/experience ? I for one must confess that I'm out of my depth .

[lonedrake]

You are comfortable with keeping her in prison on bogus charges and no evidence.  I am not.

 So what are you going to do about it?  What are your plans?

[SANDRO43]

So what are you going to do about it?  What are your plans?

A number of possibilities :

1. Digging one or more tunnels, as they did in Stalag Luft III at Sagan in Lower Silesia in 1944:

2. Having a friendly Air Force bomb the prison open, as in Operation Jericho (Amiens prison in German-occupied France, attacked by RAF Mosquitoes on 18 February 1944):

[lordtiberius]

Advocacy, contributions to laudable pro-democracy groups, some activism but not a lot, it is a different country.  But engagement is huge.  Just listening to native Ukrainians talk about their country is a lot.  Supporting candidates and politicians who are neoconservative would be a good start as well.

[lonedrake]

Advocacy, contributions to laudable pro-democracy groups, some activism but not a lot

I can respect that.Thank you.

[BillyB]

 
 

Now all of the sudden you're debating clear on the other side of the fence crying mistrial, injustice, whatever, etc...

Where did I cry mistrial and injustice? I don't care about this topic. I only joined in because I see people using the trial to point out Yulia is guilty and saying there was a jury that convicted her which is not correct. Most rational people and nations are not impressed with the trial in more ways than just a missing jury and thus it shouldn't be used to point out that Yulia is guilty.
 
My wife and MIL liked Yulia when she first ran for office but now they view her as no different than the rest of Ukrainian politicians. The big issue here is that Ukraine gets a black eye for the way they handled the case. It hurts their chances to get into the European Union and the way the west views them.
 
 

Which IINM logically means that such request - at the time of her trial - was inadmissible because the procedure was not in the Ukrainian books yet .

Sandro, this is very simple. Ukraine's constitution guarantees jury trials. Doesn't matter if the procedure is in the Ukrainian books yet, the language of guaranteed jury trial in the constitution is clear and almost all Ukrainians on trial are getting their jury trial without the same trouble Yulia went through. Now Yulia goes to trial and the judge can't figure out how to get her a jury because the procedure is not in the books? Funny.

[lordtiberius]

The average American has a lot of influence one on one with regular folks.  Most people tend to associate America with the positive things we have done.  I am sure you know this.  But just listening is good.  I learn every time I chat with a local friend I am still fb friends with.  A buddy of mine is Russian and Ukrainian.  He is a lawyer in Kiev and one of his friends poated a picture of Klitchko.  During the elections a correspondent of mine, she lived in Eastern Ukraine but voted for Bloc Tymosheko.  I think free trade and being able to travel more in the EU is good for Ukriane.  I am a Euroskeptic by nature nut hats off to the EU if they can get Julia released.  Just the progress they made this far is a diplomatic coup.

[Ranetka]

The average American has a lot of influence one on one with regular folks.  Most people tend to associate America with the positive things we have done.

You mean politically? Like what?

[Shadow]

If trial by jury is needed to be fair, then there is not a single fair trial in Holland.
Now where is your proof of her innocence in order to validate the claim.

[GQBlues]

 
Where did I cry mistrial and injustice?...

Where?!? Easy. See reply #70. Unless you make empty arguments without an ounce of conviction.
 

...I don't care about this topic. I only joined in because I see people using the trial to point out Yulia is guilty and saying there was a jury that convicted her which is not correct....

Different states have different judicial system. Just because you aren't aware of that particular system that doen't make it unjust or wrong. A trial was conducted and she was convicted by the jury of her peers.
 

...Most rational people and nations are not impressed with the trial in more ways than just a missing jury and thus it shouldn't be used to point out that Yulia is guilty....

Rational people and nations?!? Whodat? The US? Russia? France? Germany? LOL. Surely you jest, no?
For starters, no rational nation/leader would phone tap other leaders' telephone and listen in on their conversations, especially those they consider to be allies. How's that for rationality?
 
 

[BillyB]

 

If trial by jury is needed to be fair, then there is not a single fair trial in Holland.

It's really simple. Holland's Ukraine's Constitution guarantees people can have a jury at their trial. If the law isn't complete as if the procedures to make that happen aren't clear, the lawmakers can have an emergency session to make it complete.
 
 
In America there are many trials that don't have a jury either. Divorce trials most likely don't have juries but people still have the right to request a jury.

 
I can accept Holland having trials without juries. It's their law created by lawmakers who were voted in by the people in valid elections. In the past I've stated I'm okay with military trials without juries for war criminals because the law in America accepts that and a few people gave me heat for it. Some of those people are now okay with the trial Yulia got. I guess when you don't like someone, it's becomes okay to violate the Constitution.

 
The biggest lessoned learned from this trial is not whether or not Yulia is guilty, it's don't Fukc with or challenge the current party in power.
 

 

See reply #70.

 
When people state a fact that doesn't align with your opinion that Yulia had a fair trial with a jury, you accuse them of crying?
 
 

A trial was conducted and she was convicted by the jury of her peers.
 

 
To have a reasonable debate, we need to debate based on facts. Let's stop making stuff up. She was convicted by a judge who refused her a jury.

[GQBlues]

...When people state a fact that doesn't align with your opinion that Yulia had a fair trial with a jury, you accuse them of crying?
 
To have a reasonable debate, we need to debate based on facts. Let's stop making stuff up. She was convicted by a judge who refused her a jury.

As soon as you pull that silly foot out of your mouth, make certain you don't bite the big toe off...LOL! Our exchanges in this thread will forever remain as they are posted.

[lordtiberius]

I guess its too much for some people to communicate with some humanity, without snark or insults.  It violates their supreme conception of themselves.  It is their way but an effete attempt at importance.  Its a blessing such people do not breed.  One generation of social pollution is enough.

Its too bad the marriage seer is sans comment.

Billy, I hope the Vilnius agreement can bring growth to the Ukrainian economy.  As you know it lags behind other regional states such as Turkey and Romania.  Pethaps that's Yulia's fault too.  It would be nice if Yanukovych's successor was western educated like King Abdullah of Jordan.

[Shadow]

I guess its too much for some people to communicate with some humanity, without snark or insults.  It violates their supreme conception of themselves.  It is their way but an effete attempt at importance.  Its a blessing such people do not breed.  One generation of social pollution is enough.

Its too bad the marriage seer is sans comment.

Billy, I hope the Vilnius agreement can bring growth to the Ukrainian economy.  As you know it lags behind other regional states such as Turkey and Romania.  Pethaps that's Yulia's fault too.  It would be nice if Yanukovych's successor was western educated like King Abdullah of Jordan.

I guess it is the fault of every politician in Ukraine who decided their own wealth was more important as their country. Up to you if you wish to add Saint Yulia to that cateogry.

[lordtiberius]

The fact.is Shadow that every rich man in CIS and former Warsaw  Pact countries were apart of the nomenclatura.  Even Mendy and the marriagr ser concede that.  Should the law be used as an arbitrary weapon so that the oilgarchs can wage war on each other ne tolerated  in the int.l community?  I say no.  You make it a crime to have an opinion on the matter but you are quite free with your opinions on America.  You have no problem with Russia and other nations wxerting influence on other nations yet when the West does it, iys like urinating in the Oracle of Delphi.  Get a grip!  Is it too much to ask some intellectual consistency or is yout america hatred govern all your activities.  Lets not forget the poisoning of Yushenko.  Did Yanokovych bring that to justice?

[SANDRO43]

It's really simple. Holland's Ukraine's Constitution guarantees people can have a jury at their trial. If the law isn't complete as if the procedures to make that happen aren't clear, the lawmakers can have an emergency session to make it complete.

Apparently, the specific urgency escaped them, for whatever right or evil reason .

In an ideal world, that might have happened but again, why should Ukraine be different from other parts of the world, where the interests of those in power are much better safeguarded than others'? I made an Italian example about Berlusconi, but I bet I could make similar examples for the USA, had I time to research for them. Just to cite a few notorious movie examples, do you remember these?

 
2000, 2001

Again, you seem obsessed by a point of view that reminds me of your absolute conviction about the existence Saddam's WMDs a few years ago, which would have justified Bush Junior's 2nd war in Iraq .

[Boethius]

I made an Italian example about Berlusconi, but I bet I could make similar examples for the USA, had I time to research for them.

There's a whole book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/With-Liberty-Justice-Some-Equality/dp/1250013836

[GQBlues]

That's a good book, Boe...unfortunately, press time had it ending late 2009....

But the one cronyism that really got to me re. corporate heads shaping our judicial system, and received little if any media coverage, is the significance during and behind the persecution of Sen. Ted Stevens in 2008 and how much that event, likely solely, changed the socio-political landscape in America today.

"...Mr. Stevens, Republican of Alaska, was charged during the Bush administration with failing to report that an oil services firm had remodeled his house. He was convicted just before the 2008 election and lost his seat — briefly giving Democrats a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, which enabled them to pass the health care law.


The case, however, started to fall apart after it emerged that prosecutors had failed to turn over information, like conflicting statements by witnesses, that might have helped Mr. Stevens at his trial. Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., then new to the job, asked the judge to throw out the conviction, and both the court and the department began investigations.


Mr. Stevens died in a 2010 plane crash.

 
Many of the department’s findings appeared to dovetail with a report by the court-appointed special prosecutor, which was made public in March. Both reports portrayed a rushed and poorly supervised preparation for the trial, criticizing Mr. Bottini and Mr. Goeke while withholding judgment about a third prosecutor, Nicholas Marsh, because he committed suicide...."



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/25/us/politics/2-prosecutors-in-case-of-senator-ted-stevens-are-suspended.html?_r=0

[lordtiberius]

I don't think Tymoshenko will return from exile to storm the barricade.  I don't think she is Nelson Mandela, the Lady of Burma or Golda Meir.  Though she has a following locally, she like Gorbachev is more popular in the West.  I see her living comfortably in the West raising money for herself and presumably for her pet causes.  She isn't Satan like some people make her out to be, but a spoiled child of privilege a vestige of the old regime - just as Yanokovych is.  As for her being a criminal, Navalny's accusers allege he stole just as much as Tymoshenko and his sentence was suspended.

It is been more than 60 years since Stalin's death and even after Solzenitsyn warned the Soveit people's to reject Stalin and de-Stalinize, even in the West, Stalin has his supporters.  Make no mistake this "trial" Tymoshenko got has more in common with the political trials of Yeschov & Trotsky than it does Blago, Jefferson or even the Lewinsky affair.  And Ukraine wonders why western entrepreneurs and investors.

A contributor to this forum slandered Yushenko again in Stalinist style wiyh mo evidence.  You know what I remember about my trip, all the post Soviet  monuments and streets renamed afyer Ukr

[lordtiberius]

 after Ukrainian patriots.  The man almost died for his beliefs and some people have the unmitigated gall to dub him a crook.

Uktaine's best days are ahead and they are with the West.

[lordtiberius]

I spoke with my friend the young lawyer last night about Tymoshenko.  He said he didn't care for her and felt the legislative effort to free her in the Rada was wrong.  He upheld the principle of equality under the law.  This effort in his opinion serves only the oligarchs.  He sees the accompanying diplomatic effort as supporting the rule of oligarchs.  This disturbs him.  Among the English speaking Ukrainians a book written by a former MI6 agent called the Commitye of the 300 is making the rounds.  Its main thesis is that an int'l clique is ruling the world.

I asked him about the EU association agreement and free trade.  He doubted it would havs any impact bc of the weakneas in the EU economy.  He further postulated that whatever Ukraine decides will be wrong because the ruling class is immoral and indifferent and hateful to regular people.

I asked him about Klichko.  He had a wait and see attitude.  He hayes all politicians but respected him for at least being a champion.  He disparaged the opposition leader and loathes the Ukrainian ultra nationalist party leader.

He asked me about Obamacare.

My friend's comment as well as BillyB.s anecdotal evidence verifiea that the young people have little regard for Tymoshenko who in their opinion squandered mandate to govern.  Her release will not threaten the current regime.  If Regions does not release her, it will be based on vindicativeness on the part of Yanokovych, a suspicion on those benefitting in the current status quo and a diplomatic coup for Russian influence.  Yanokovych's real threat is from Klichko who declared he will be a candidate for President in 2015.  Gnaeus Pompey said to the dictator Sulla that ppl adore the rising sun than the aetting sun.  These next few months will determine if this contender is a credible leader or a fading celebrity.

[lordtiberius]

I have an unconfirmed report from Kiev that Tymoshenko is in Germany.  The source is an American academic.