Trial of anti-Putin figure Alex Navalny ends

[lordtiberius]

Dear Sir,

As you usual, I read your posts with apt interest.  It seems like whenever one studies Russia not only is a mastery of the Russian language and culture prerequisite, but a healthy competence in playing chess with more than four opponents simultaneously helps as well.

If my questions sound cliche, please forgive not only the ignorance but a calcified cultural reluctance to debate the issues of Russian Foreign Policy.  I have been alive 40 years - 20 of these years we were at a state of de facto war with a form of Russia and the 10 years that followed have been a relaxation but not a lasting peace befitting of Metternich but only a slightly better version of the North Korean cease fire.  Disagree?

Can Russia integrate itself into the West?  Can the West integrate itself into a Russian polity?  Can we ever move into a state where we are not in a semi-adversarial relationship?

The animus between Russia and Germany, and Germany symbolizing the West is well known and visceral in the Russian imagination.  But outside the years 1941 to 1945 and the Teutonic invasions defended by Alexey Nevsky, Germany is not really a threat to Russia but a partner most notably in disassembling Poland.

Can one be pro-Poland and still be pro-Russian?

The real enemy historically of Russia is not Germany or the US but England who was the only Western Power that could compete with its superpower status.  The Crimean War, the Russo-Japanese War, the Post-Russian Revolution interventions, Afghanistan, Iranian intrigues and countless little wars in between spell tension between Moscow and London account for the anti-Western animus, am I wrong?

Dosteovseky and his literary disciples who may esteem Western political ideas have a cultural aversion to the West in favor of a Russian identity, no?

Can the West really reconcile itself with a strong Russia democratic or autocratic?

You mention Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Tartarstan as possible break away states - all of whom are in the Islamic albeit Persian sphere of influence - though I think the anti-Russ money is coming from Saudi Arabia.  Does it benefit the West to ally itself to Islamic Terrorism as it did in Kosovo and is it is doing in Syria?

If Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Tartarstan were to break away, does their break away benefit the West?

Is there really such a thing is a moderate Muslim?  I mean isn't a moderate Muslim someone who wants to delay your murder until tomorrow?

Will Russian always be a major arms dealer?

Why is it that the United States is willing to trade with China who persecutes Christians but does not have a robust trade with Christian Russia?

I believe a Syrian proxy war will benefit the unpopular regimes in Iran, Russia and the United States, but for democrats in all three countries, does a Syrian Proxy War make sense?

Putin is propped up Russian oil prices?  What if oil prices fall below $ 90 a barrel?  What if they fall as low as sub $ 20 a barrel?

In the old Cold War days, the Virgin of Fatima exhorted us to 'Pray for the conversion of Russia.'  Do we still need to maintain those prayers?  Is there something more we can do for Russian democrats and our co-religionists besides prayer?

Navalny, I think Putin miscalculated for the reasons you stated, this I believe is his Francis Urquart-Tom Makepeace moment.  I don't think Putin will be assassinated but he will rot in jail if he does not seek exile somewhere else.  It is not like he can invade Gaul like his Roman predecessor.  Thoughts?

Thank you again

[Muzh]

So where did you copy all this from?

If by any chance you were serious, the answer to most of your questions is no.

[lordtiberius]

So where did you copy all this from?

If by any chance you were serious, the answer to most of your questions is no.

which ones specifically

[Anotherkiwi]

Is there really such a thing is a moderate Muslim?  I mean isn't a moderate Muslim someone who wants to delay your murder until tomorrow?

Sure, and a moderate Christian is one who is happy to kill all Muslims NOW.  Haven't we had enough of this crap over the past few months? 
 
NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS, or is that a statement which is just too hard for the American mind to believe?  Look back over your history - a hundred times more of your war dead were killed by other Christians (including your Civil War) than by Muslims in any form of war or civil unrest (including 9/11).

[mendeleyev]

As you usual, I read your posts with apt interest.  It seems like whenever one studies Russia not only is a mastery of the Russian language and culture prerequisite, but a healthy competence in playing chess with more than four opponents simultaneously helps as well.

If my questions sound cliche, please forgive not only the ignorance but a calcified cultural reluctance to debate the issues of Russian Foreign Policy.  I have been alive 40 years - 20 of these years we were at a state of de facto war with a form of Russia and the 10 years that followed have been a relaxation but not a lasting peace befitting of Metternich but only a slightly better version of the North Korean cease fire.  Disagree?

Thank you. I should take calcium pills more often but try to eat a banana a day. 

Let the old Cold War go. How can we start a new one if folks are still clinging to the old war?

Can Russia integrate itself into the West?  Can the West integrate itself into a Russian polity?  Can we ever move into a state where we are not in a semi-adversarial relationship?

No, nor should it. The West is bankrupt. Russia doesn't deserve to die yet.

Plus, as the "Third Rome" we need Russia to push back America's murdeous wars on minority Christians populations in predominately Muslim countries.

The animus between Russia and Germany, and Germany symbolizing the West is well known and visceral in the Russian imagination.  But outside the years 1941 to 1945 and the Teutonic invasions defended by Alexey Nevsky, Germany is not really a threat to Russia but a partner most notably in disassembling Poland.

Correct. The Russians and Germans actually get on well these days other than the occasional finger wagging on human rights. Plus one has heating oil and the other doesn't--they need each other.

Can one be pro-Poland and still be pro-Russian?

No. Too much violent and oppressive history.

Unlike the Germans who are forgetful, the Poles will never forget. Nor forgive.

The real enemy historically of Russia is not Germany or the US but England who was the only Western Power that could compete with its superpower status.  The Crimean War, the Russo-Japanese War, the Post-Russian Revolution interventions, Afghanistan, Iranian intrigues and countless little wars in between spell tension between Moscow and London account for the anti-Western animus, am I wrong?

Wrong.

When it comes to war, the UK is the 51st state. Okay, as Obama claims to have visited all 57, make UK the 58th. We also take our northern provinces along on wars just in case we need French interpreters.

Dosteovseky and his literary disciples who may esteem Western political ideas have a cultural aversion to the West in favor of a Russian identity, no?

All Russians prefer a Russian identity.

Do you recall the "Mighty Five" in Russian classical music? Multiply that across writing, art, science, theatre, etc.

Can the West really reconcile itself with a strong Russia democratic or autocratic?

Not unless it is forced to adapt.

You mention Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Tartarstan as possible break away states - all of whom are in the Islamic albeit Persian sphere of influence - though I think the anti-Russ money is coming from Saudi Arabia.  Does it benefit the West to ally itself to Islamic Terrorism as it did in Kosovo and is it is doing in Syria?

No. America is guilty of mass murder in Kosovo/Serbia. We defended the wrong side and Russia should have bombed the hell out of us at the time but they were still recovering in that period. Too bad, because what we started in Kosovo is now going on in Macedonia with the Islamic rebels we trained and the weapons we seem to so freely distribute. And in Syria.

If Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Tartarstan were to break away, does their break away benefit the West?

It would benefit no one. Chechnya, Ingushetia and Dagestan would immediate begin to terrorize Russia, Georgia and others in the near abroad. Radical Muslims may squat and wipe shit with one hand while shaking your's with their other hand, but personal hygiene aside, they truly believe in the right to kill you and anyone else who doesn't convert. It is about taking over nations.

Is there really such a thing is a moderate Muslim?  I mean isn't a moderate Muslim someone who wants to delay your murder until tomorrow?

No. Ultimately a moderate Muslim is someone who hasn't read all the way thru the Quran or is in denial on what they've read.

Will Russian always be a major arms dealer?

She will likely never reach the status of the USA but can try.

Why is it that the United States is willing to trade with China who persecutes Christians but does not have a robust trade with Christian Russia?

Because the Chinese lend us money. All the Russians have is women.

I believe a Syrian proxy war will benefit the unpopular regimes in Iran, Russia and the United States, but for democrats in all three countries, does a Syrian Proxy War make sense?

A war will benefit nobody. Every week there are arrivals in Russia of those who've been forced out of Syria by the civil war. We should pray that the minority Christian population survives. They were doing okay until the Islamic rebels began to kill and rape. The USA is again on the wrong side of this war. I want to scream and pull out my non-existent hair because of the Obama administrations stupidity on this issue. Tar and feather folk like John McCain too. They should be boiled in oil--arming these rebels is nothing short of murder at our hands.

Putin is propped up Russian oil prices?  What if oil prices fall below $ 90 a barrel?  What if they fall as low as sub $ 20 a barrel?

Then all countries, not just Russia, will have a different set of problems on their hands.

In the old Cold War days, the Virgin of Fatima exhorted us to 'Pray for the conversion of Russia.'  Do we still need to maintain those prayers?  Is there something more we can do for Russian democrats and our co-religionists besides prayer?

Russia is this month celebrating 1025 years of Christianity and the West is praying for her "conversion." Precious.

We can encourage the rule of law. Russia has a constitution, a mighty fine one if you ask me. Co-authored by Anatoly Sobchak (father of the blonde smokin'hottie, Kseniya, who is a member of the opposition while still a Putin family friend). Mr. Putin and Mr. Medvedev studied and worked under the brilliant Sobchak who was a genuine democrat before his time.

If the authorities would begin to apply the rule of law justly, to all sides, the opposition would shrink to an insignificant minority of commies and ultra nationalists. Those kinds of folk will always be lurking in the shadows, but the vast majority of the country yearns for a normal and fair life.

Equal justice and equal opportunity would make Putin a hero. It will make somebody a hero if he doesn't wake up and smell the tea leaves.

[mendeleyev]

LT, thanks for that long but serious set of questions. I appreciated them because it lends the opportunity to help our fellow Americans to think and not just follow/swallow like sheep.

[lordtiberius]

Sure, and a moderate Christian is one who is happy to kill all Muslims NOW.  Haven't we had enough of this crap over the past few months? 
 
NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS, or is that a statement which is just too hard for the American mind to believe?  Look back over your history - a hundred times more of your war dead were killed by other Christians (including your Civil War) than by Muslims in any form of war or civil unrest (including 9/11).

 

You can always count on a kiwi for a joke.



 As for me, I'd rather live next to the radical Muslims than the moderate ones. 


They are more honest.  They simplify things.

How's that nuclear free New Zealand working out for you?

[Muzh]

which ones specifically

When you stop being a clown, I will discuss them with you.

[lordtiberius]

When you stop being a clown, I will discuss them with you.

I can always count on a cop out when I call you out

[lordtiberius]

Sir,

I am glad we agree on a few things such as the intent and value of moderate Muslims.  How weak is Putin?  How strong is Navalny?  Will the opposition coalesce around him?  What does the opposition stand for besides being against Vladimir?  What is next in the chess game between Putin and his enemies?

Question about the Russian constitution, how do the oblast relate to the Russian Central Government?  Thank you.

[mendeleyev]

How weak is Putin?

A leader is only as strong when his people are willing to follow him. He is weak when the use of force is necessary to maintain order.

How strong is Navalny?

The country is just getting to know him. Setting him free to run for mayor isn't going to get him in the mayor's office, but is good for his name/brand recognition.

Will the opposition coalesce around him?

 

Not that I can see in great enough numbers to make a difference. The other candidates also recognize that they're not going to be elected either, but each is building a base and platform for future elections. Thus I doubt if anyone drops out.

What does the opposition stand for besides being against Vladimir?

We in the West often misunderstand the intentions of the opposition. Two years ago everyone was thinking this to be another Arab Spring but that didn't materialize.

However the opposition now operates a "shadow government" across party lines. They are practicing on how to work together, draft legislation, run cities, etc.

The opposition seems to have taken a measured and patient route, waiting for the right opportunities to be heard. On some weekends across Russia you can encounter opposition groups who are not there to demonstrate, but rather to teach voters their rights and help them evaluate options in the future.

What is next in the chess game between Putin and his enemies?

We'll have to see what happens after the mayoral election.

Question about the Russian constitution, how do the oblasts relate to the Russian Central Government?

An Oblast is much the same as a state or province. Oblasts are broken into smaller raions (counties, regions, etc). There are 46 Oblasts in Russia. Some, like the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, are self-governing to a great degree. There is a list of the Oblasts here.

Russia is a Federation and there is a treaty between Republics and Subjects that accompanies the Constitution. The working model is top down, the top being Moscow and down being everywhere else. The Republics use the same model with their own Governor or President, their own regional Parliament (Duma), etc.

Policing is top town with Moscow ultimately in control of all police forces across the country. Education and health care are top down as well.



Constitution:

Article 3   
1. The bearer of sovereignty and the only source of power in the Russian Federation shall be its multinational people.   
2. The people shall exercise their power directly, and also through the bodies of state power and local self-government.   
3. The supreme direct expression of the power of the people shall be referenda and free elections.   
4. No one may usurp power in the Russian Federation. Seizure of power or usurping state authority shall be prosecuted under federal law.


Article 5  1. The Russian Federation consists of republics, territories, regions, cities of federal importance, an autonomous region and autonomous areas - equal subjects of the Russian Federation.2. A republic (State) shall have its own constitution and legislation. A territory, region, city of federal importance, autonomous region, and autonomous area shall have its charter and legislation.


Article 12
In the Russian Federation local self-government shall be recognised and guaranteed. Local self-government shall be independent within the limits of its authority. The bodies of local self-government shall not be part of the system of state authorities.


Article 13 (where Mr. Putin believes he can exercise authority over opposition groups)
5. The creation and activities of public associations whose aims and actions are aimed at a forced change of the fundamental principles of the constitutional system and at violating the integrity of the Russian Federation, at undermining its security, at setting up armed units, and at instigating social, racial, national and religious strife shall be prohibited.


Article 29
1. Everyone shall be guaranteed the freedom of ideas and speech. 2. Propaganda or agitation instigating social, racial, national or religious hatred and strife shall not be allowed. The propaganda of social, racial, national, religious or linguistic supremacy shall be banned. 3. No one may be forced to express his views and convictions or to reject them. 4. Everyone shall have the right to freely look for, receive, transmit, produce and distribute information by any legal means. The list of data comprising state secrets shall be determined by a federal law. 5. The freedom of mass communication shall be guaranteed. Censorship shall be banned.
(Mendeleyev note: #2 above is arbitrary at best with the government getting to decide what is propaganda or agitation.)



Article 31
Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to assemble peacefully, without weapons, hold rallies, meetings and demonstrations, marches and pickets.
(Mendeleyev note: in reality, they are required to submit requests via a permit system, reasonable on its face but often manipulated by the government.)


Article 322.
Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to elect and be elected to state bodies of power and local self-government bodies, and also to participate in referenda.
 3. Citizens recognised by court as legally unfit, as well as citizens kept in places of confinement under a court sentence, shall be deprived of the right to elect and be elected. (Navalny)

[Anotherkiwi]

 

You can always count on a kiwi for a joke.

Huh?  Have a look at this table before you shove your foot even further into your mouth.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

625,000 people died in your Civil War, and you consider that a joke?  My numbers in the earlier post were way on the conservative side - total US deaths in the "War on Terror" to date are "only" 6,717, and a LOT of those are deaths by accident (e.g. helicopter crashes) or friendly fire.  I'm not belittling those casualties, because I realise the heartbreak caused back home by every one of those deaths, nor the effort that other US troops have made in Afghanistan and Iraq, but that number is just a drop in the bucket of overall deaths in war (over 1.3 million). 

As for me, I'd rather live next to the radical Muslims than the moderate ones.  They are more honest.  They simplify things.

Somehow I doubt that you would even be able to notice the difference.

How's that nuclear free New Zealand working out for you?

Wonderfully well.  No Three Mile Island, no Chernobyl, no nuclear-powered warships having their reactors go all funny when they sink, no guns (no...sorry, somebody did get shot a few months ago) - maybe you should come here and see it for yourself.  We do actually let Americans in - and we're equally happy to show you what a wonderful country YOU could have if you gave peace a chance! 

[lordtiberius]

You are derailing this thread which is very disrespectful to our friend Mendeleyev who has gracious given his time to lift the blight of ignorance from us all.

Unless you want to talk about Putin or Navalny, I have no interest in continuing this convo on this thread.

Thanks

[mendeleyev]

Latest poll numbers this morning show Navalny with 15% of potential votes for mayor. If this goes over 20% seeing that there are several weeks left to the September election, folks in the Kremlin will be ordering extra cases of Preparation H.

Sobyanin (current mayor) needs more than 50% to avoid a runoff and his numbers were at 53% this morning.

If this gets genuinely close, and I don't foresee that personally, the election will be more rigged than normal and that will bring the opposition back out on the streets.

[Anotherkiwi]

You are derailing this thread which is very disrespectful to our friend Mendeleyev who has gracious given his time to lift the blight of ignorance from us all.

Unless you want to talk about Putin or Navalny, I have no interest in continuing this convo on this thread.

Thanks

No, lordtiberius, you derailed it yourself with your initial inflammatory comment of "I mean isn't a moderate Muslim someone who wants to delay your murder until tomorrow?"  What on earth has that to do with Putin v Navalny?
 
I've appreciated mendeleyev's wisdom for quite some time now - I don't appreciate stupid comments from insulated/isolated redneck Americans who know next to nothing about the rest of the world.

[lordtiberius]

Latest poll numbers this morning show Navalny with 15% of potential votes for mayor. If this goes over 20% seeing that there are several weeks left to the September election, folks in the Kremlin will be ordering extra cases of Preparation H.

Sobyanin (current mayor) needs more than 50% to avoid a runoff and his numbers were at 53% this morning.

If this gets genuinely close, and I don't foresee that personally, the election will be more rigged than normal and that will bring the opposition back out on the streets.

So the best thing for Putin to do is stop worrying about Navalny and WIN an election.  If he is a student of the greatest democratic professor, then he would be wise to apply what he learned.  My friend Nina Petrovna



would suffer through my Russian an hour a week for 3 months.  We talked politics often and she said she liked Putin, not because he was some grand dictator but because he was strong - not a homo like the dog eater who likes stimulus.

How many other people share Nina's point of view?

Personally I agree with Nina.  Putin is a real man, if the people elect someone like Navalny, will it be a return to the free wheeling rudderless days of Yeltsin - a man I admire, but a man seen by Russians as not good for the country

[Misha]

Putin is a real man, if the people elect someone like Navalny, will it be a return to the free wheeling rudderless days of Yeltsin - a man I admire, but a man seen by Russians as not good for the country

Putin had the good fortune to have the price of crude oil go from $8 IIRC to close to $150 a barrel. The latest attempt to show Putin's manliness is a bit sad with the alleged 20+ kg fish he is said to have caught...

[mendeleyev]

Looking at her photo, she is a Putin voter. Her age and her experience in the Soviet Union makes him her best choice. She trusts him to safeguard her pension, discounted or free public transport, subsidies on utilities, etc. She is a natural Putin voter.

The question of real man/strong man versus weak man is a straw man. That type of argument leads to only one "correct" solution--the strong man. It is however an incorrect assumption.

The strong men in she and her family's experience have been Stalin, Brezhnev and Putin.

The weak men have been Tsar Nikolas, Nikita Khrushchev, Yuri Andropov, Konstantin Chernenko, Mikhail Gorbachev, and Boris Yeltsin.

Andropov and Chernenko had been tough guys previously but both entered leadership of the CCCP late in life. Andropov died fifteen months after taking office and was succeeded by Chernenko who died thirteen months later.

She is likely a very nice lady but the younger generation of Russians surrounding her would argue that she is wrong, albeit she has her reasons. Lets look at those:

- Each "strong" man was preceded by a period of great instability. Lenin was a great public speaker but too undisciplined, too unhealthy, and too unfocused. He could lead a revolution but not a country and that is why he was poisoned. So the revolution was successful but in many ways the country was floundering.

- Stalin came in and murdered enough people to gain firm control. Your friend doesn't like the murdering part of that history but she fondly remembers Stalin as a man who brought stability and then won the greatest of all wars. He really didn't win the war and by his stupidity almost lost it were it not for a man named Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov who saved his ass. Like all good dictators, Stalin took the credit and sidelined Zhukov.

- After Lenin, the next "weak" man was Nikita Khrushchev who accomplished great improvements in housing and standard of living, something he'll never get enough credit for doing. Under Stalin the country had been mired in the third world but Khrushchev was viewed as weak because he blinked during the Cuban missile crisis. The fact that he sent the first satellite into space, presided over construction that provided thousands of homes, and built the Berlin Wall was not enough to overcome his image as crude and poorly educated. Which frankly, he was crude and came across as poorly educated.

Khrushchev was followed by a "strong man" in Leonid Brezhnev. Brezhnev was boring, ineffective at most economic programs he tried, and was full of himself. But like Stalin he knew how to send someone off to the Gulags if necessary. He brutally murdered those who led the "Prague Spring" attempted revolution and from that formulated what became known as the  Brezhnev Doctrine.  Never mind that he began the process of bankrupting the country with his military buildup and the fact that he had to beg Jimmy Carter for grain, older Russians look at his photos and all those medals (many self-awarded) and in their elderly stupor believe that he was a strong leader.

- The Brezhnev period was followed by two men so old that they couldn't tie their own shoelaces. During the Andropov and Chernenko period, twenty-eight months between them both, Western journalists used to drive to work in Moscow early each morning and swing by Red Square. The Soviets were so tight lipped when leaders died that it wasn't always front page news but huge banners across from Red Square heralded the photo and name of the current leader. When a person died, the banner was taken down until a new leader was announced. If the banner was up, nobody had died. If the banner was down, time to do a quick check with sources before cabling off a news bulletin to New York or some foreign capital.

- When the two old farts faded off to that great Socialist hell in the sky, Chernenko had urged that at his death Gorbachev be named, and so it came to pass.

- Gorbachev is not as weak as everyone thought--Kremlin archives suggest that he ordered the KAL 007 shooting which killed American Congressman Larry McDonald. Andropov was in power at the time but so drugged and out of it that Gorbachev and others really ran the country day to day. Despite any faults, one must give Gorbachev credit because he had the courage to begin the policy of openness. He started a revolution that he might have managed had it not been for the coup attempt. That allowed Yeltsin to step in as "hero" of the hour.

One could easily argue that Gorbachev had no choice in his proposed reforms--the country was bankrupt financially and the system of socialism had collapsed upon itself. Older Russians like your friend (and my mother in law) see him as weak because he let their beloved Soviet Union slip away.

- Younger Russians view Gorbachev as weak for the opposite reasons--he could not hold onto power and complete the reforms that had begun. Those are many of the same reforms the opposition yearns for today.

- Enter Boris Yeltsin. He and Bill Clinton were soul mates. They loved to drink, listen to jazz and grope women. Clinton however wasn't an alcoholic and he was a centrist politician. Yeltsin was just a fun loving drunk who handed over power to Vladimir Putin in a secret deal for immunity for all that he and his family had stolen from state resources. He got a nice presidential residence out of the deal too, a tradition now passed on to this day.

- As you can see, by the time V.V. Putin came to power, it was time to place another "strong" man on the roller coaster known as Russia. Things got off to a rough start with the second war in Chechnya, the Moscow theatre bombing, and Beslan, but after a few years Putin had consolidated his control. Things began to stabilize and you might not like the amount of your pension or the fact that some of your relatives were back in jail, but the roller coaster had stopped. For awhile.

LT, the idea that Russians like a "strong" leader is a largely myth.

In reality, when given a vote, Russians have chosen Yeltsin (weak), Putin (strong), Medvedev (moderate), and again Putin (strong) but one could easily have doubts about the validity of the last election given the massive voter fraud. Putin would have won the vote in a runoff, maybe, but the Communists gave him a run for his money--its just that the Election Commission was in Mr. Putin's pocket.

So from a batting average, you have weak-strong-moderate-strong. About 50-50, which if you look at Soviet history is just about right. I didn't include Soviet leaders in this poll because voting then was a formality and had nothing to do with winners and losers. The people didn't choose Tsars either but even under the Romanov dynasty the country careened up and down, from one roller coaster moment to another depending on who was in power at the time.

The fact of the matter is because of a long history of not choosing their own leaders, the Russian people are sort of lazy when it comes to politics. That is changing however and today in Russia you have not just rich versus poor, but old versus young. The old just want stability but the young want to have a life. Stop ten old Russians on the street and ask, then ten younger Russians and what I've written will be right a majority almost every time.

Some might read this and proclaim "my gf doesn't care about politics" therefore so much for your theory. Give me thirty minutes, with you present, with your girlfriend and ten of her friends and I'll shock you with the conclusions. She truly isn't interested in debating politics with you but given choices of what kind of life she and her children would like, except for the few communists I hear the same answers every time.

If you look at the most Western countries, citizen involvement is key to governance. People are passionate about government--just peek in on the UK Parliament sometime. Debate is heated, vigorous and serious.

Russians have always had someone else do the weighty stuff and they've just hoped to be allowed to hold a job and not hear boots of the Cheka coming up the stairway in the middle of the night. This is changing and whether or not Putin lasts two terms, change is coming because the demographics are changing.

[mendeleyev]

Putin had the good fortune to have the price of crude oil go from $8 IIRC to close to $150 a barrel. The latest attempt to show Putin's manliness is a bit sad with the alleged 20+ kg fish he is said to have caught...

Exactly, and shooting a Tiger, diving for sunken treasure in the Volga, etc, etc, etc.

[mendeleyev]

Not to be outdone, Belarus dictator Lukashenko claims to have caught 3 fish this week, one supposedly 57 kilograms.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/belarussian-president-boasts-of-bigger-fish-than-putins/483927.html

[Muzh]

You are derailing this thread which is very disrespectful to our friend Mendeleyev who has gracious given his time to lift the blight of ignorance from us all.

Unless you want to talk about Putin or Navalny, I have no interest in continuing this convo on this thread.

Thanks

Please go wipe your nose. Got some brown on the tip of it.

[lordtiberius]

What you have said about Nina is right on.

Re: Gorby, Killing Congressman Larry MacDonald does not make a man tough.  We came close to nuclear war over that little incident.  Has Russia ever apologized?

Say what you want about Yeltsin.  He used his personal power to stop the military coup.  He was democratically elected and he open up the government to the people.  And Yeltsin died after he left the Presidency.  So much for that pension.  It is funny how so many people die mysteriously after they leave office.  No wonder Putin wants to hold on to office.

That said, we want the same things.  We want Russia to be democratic, free and prosperous.  It is an important country.  But I am coming to the conclusion that there can really never be peace between our two nations as the issues are too complex, the suspicion, geography and history conspire against such an arrangement.  We also have no leverage.  If Russia sold us Siberian Timber, steel or coal, we would have a chance.  But we have too many communists in the American Democratic party that will never let that happen.

[mendeleyev]

Re: Gorby, Killing Congressman Larry MacDonald does not make a man tough.  We came close to nuclear war over that little incident.  Has Russia ever apologized?

Yeltsin apologized first to South Korea in handing over the airplane little black box and later to US President G. H. W. Bush.

Say what you want about Yeltsin.  He used his personal power to stop the military coup.  He was democratically elected and he open up the government to the people.  And Yeltsin died after he left the Presidency.  So much for that pension.  It is funny how so many people die mysteriously after they leave office.  No wonder Putin wants to hold on to office.

There was much to respect about Yeltsin. Did you know that his family almost starved in 1932 after the state took the entire harvest of the collective farms where his parents laboured in the Sverdlovsk region?  His father was falsely accused during the Stalin terror and was sentenced to the Gulags.

Gorbachev and Yeltsin had been partners in planning to reform Russia and Gorbachev brought him to Moscow and made him Party head of the city, tantamount to the office of mayor. They had a falling out over the pace of the reforms and Gorbachev fired Yeltsin who responded by attempting suicide and he almost died. The fact that he would later rescue Gorbachev during the coup is nothing short of amazing.

Nevertheless he had serious faults as well and those were sometimes very costly to the Russian people.

That said, we want the same things.  We want Russia to be democratic, free and prosperous.  It is an important country.

This view we share.

But I am coming to the conclusion that there can really never be peace between our two nations as the issues are too complex, the suspicion, geography and history conspire against such an arrangement. We also have no leverage.  If Russia sold us Siberian Timber, steel or coal, we would have a chance. 

We don't need "leverage" over Russia. We need to respect and count Russia as a partner whenever possible.

Historically, we owe Russia a debt of gratitude in the war for independence from England. Catherine the Great informed the British that she supported American independence, that her ships would continue to trade with the colonies and if the British Navy blockade interfered with Russian ships that there would be a price to pay. The Brits asked Catherine for financial help in the war and not only did she make public an official declaration of neutrality but wrote King George a strong letter condemning the actions she saw as having brought on the war.

Just this month we celebrated the anniversary of the establishment in 1812 of Fort Ross, now known as Fort Ross State Historic Park in California. Russia had laid claim to parts of what is now Northern California.
 
Historically we have a lot in common and most certainly do need to get over the suspicion.

[lordtiberius]

I spoke to a Russian national who is a member of an ethnic minority in Ufa, Russia.  The young man corresponded with me in English over VK.  He says economic bad times are ahead in Russia.  The imprisonment of Navalny and Pussy Riot the lack of action from the people discourage him.  His words were "one man in the field."   He said not even the rising price of gas will help.  He says the government is inflating the Ruble.

This is only anecdotal evidence but it does signal the reach of Navalny's popularity and his legitimacy among the young people.

[lordtiberius]

Great topic, Larry.

- The court refused Navalny's defense request for an official audit to determine what was stolen, when and by whom. Prosecutors said an audit wasn't necessary to determine guilt and would be too time consuming.

- The Investigative Committee admitted at the start of the trial that the Navalny case was given priority because of his constant tormenting of the country's authorities.

- Navalny was accused of stealing in 2009 more timber than the company had the capacity to produce that year.

- Navalny's defense team was denied the right to call defense witnesses.

- Navalny's defense team was denied the right to cross-examine government witnesses.

- The government's star witness was a former company manager who had been fired for stealing and his sentence was suspended in exchange for his testimony.

- Navalny's co-defendant, Pyotr Ofitserov, turned down an offer of a suspended sentence if he would testify against Navalny.

- Defense lawyers for Navalny's co-defendant, who received a four year sentence on the same day as Navalny was sentenced, offered banking records and other proofs that the man lived a simple life in an older Moscow suburban apartment with no irregular bank transactions but the court ruled that such evidence was not a factor in the case.


Here is what we reported in the Mendeleyev Journal:

It was obvious from the start that the Navalny case was politically motivated and yesterday the Leninsky District court in Kirov sentenced Alexei Navalny to five years in prison for allegedly stealing timber from a company in which Navalny had been a director.

The tip-off that a prison sentence was about to be handed down came the day before yesterday when Moscow Mayor (acting) Sergei Sobyanin certified Navalny's candidacy for the Moscow mayoral election, saying that the city had made the certification a priority in order to show fairness to Navalny. Now that he has been convicted and sentenced his candidacy for mayor is no longer valid.



Navalny on his way from Moscow to Kirov for sentencing.

When pressed prosecutors office spokesman Vladimir Markin denied that the trail was political but admitted that the Navalny case had received priority status because Navalny's political activities amounted to "teasing" the authorities.

We might point out that the prosecution's star witness was the former timber manager who had been fired for stealing. It was near comical in that the government charged Navalny with stealing more timber in 2009 than the company had the capacity to produce annually.

Perhaps the biggest signal for this being a bogus trial was that the theft charges took place without an audit. An official audit would certainly shed light on who stole what and how much was stolen. One of Navalny's defense strategies was to request that a government audit be conducted however prosecutors argued that an audit wasn't necessary to determine guilt and would be too time consuming. The court ruled in favour of the prosecutor, something almost guaranteed in Russian courts.


Navalny (left) in Kirov courtroom at the defense table.

In addition to denying the request for a state audit, Judge Blinov barred the defense from calling 13 witnesses and did not allow the defense to cross-examine prosecution witnesses. A second co-defendant, Vyacheslav Opalev, opted to testify against Navalny and received a suspended sentence. During the trial Opalev appeared to give contradictory evidence but defense lawyers were not allowed to cross-examine him.

Navalny's co-defendant Pyotr Ofitserov was sentenced to four years in prison. Ofitserov had been promised a suspended sentence if he testified against Navalny but he refused. Defense attorneys showed the court that Ofitserov lived a simple life in a Moscow suburb with no records of banking transactions that would accompany hundreds of thousands of dollars customary with stealing large amounts of timber but to no avail. Unlike Navalny, Mr. Ofitserov has not been active in political opposition.

Reaction from Russian activists was swift: Former Soviet president Mikhail S. Gorbachev reacted by saying that the Navalny case was further “proof that we do not have independent courts” and that “using the courts against political opponents is unacceptable.”


Navalny with his wife Yulia at a political rally last year.

Mikhail Khodorkovsky, jailed former Yukos Oil CEO labeled the verdict “predictable and inevitable because for Russia there is nothing unusual in the state convicting political opponents on criminal charges — from the times of Stalin's terror to the days of Khrushchev and Brezhnev." Khodorkovsky also wrote, "our judicial-legal system has diligently portrayed opponents of the regime as ordinary criminals, allowing the heads of state to hypocritically make statements about the absence of political prisoners.”

One of the most damning to the reactions was from long-time Putin ally and now former Treasury Minister Alexei Kudrin who commented on Twitter that “The verdict seems less like a punishment and more like it is aimed at isolating him from society and from the election process.” 

Just released polls show that the continued arrests of opposition rally leaders is having a chilling effect on the Russian public. In a Levada Centre poll released yesterday just 11 percent of those questioned said they would take part in future political rallies.

Popular Moscow Echo radio host Sergei Parkhomenko announced that he was surprised by the verdict because Navalny's imprisonment would cause Russian citizens to lose faith in the electoral process.

Outspoken crime novelist Boris Akunin, also a political opposition leader, echoed similar sentiments, saying that the conviction meant the end of real elections. “Lifetime deprivation of elections — this is what the verdict means not only for Navalny but for all who thought it was possible to change this system through elections.” Mr. Akunin wrote that “as long as the Putin regime is alive, there will not be elections. The answer to the question ‘to be, or not to be’ that is to boycott or not boycott, has been answered."

 

What did bureaucrats and managers tasked to brief Brezhnev call him?  Comrade General Secretary?