Tipping in FSU

[ML]

Excellent and useful post Jack.

[Jack]

Thank you ML.    Hopefully it will help some of the newer guys.

[TheTraveler]

great post, jack!

agree with you 100%!

[JayH]

I just came across this --  tipping has been discussed recently in a few threads  .
This post was made by a guy who had a lot of on the ground experience -- and is as appropriate today as when it was made.
I have recently said some fairly similar things in threads-- and mostly agree with this extensive post.


Odds and Ends / Re: Tipping in FSU
« on: January 09, 2013, 02:12:36 PM »

For the benefit of the many new guy's who will be making a trip to the FSU in the soon future I think it is good for you to have some idea as to general tipping procedures.

And like many others all I am doing is expressing my opinion only.

Russia and Ukraine are very similar with regards to tipping. 

For the most part, as in everything I say and write their will always be exceptions, but for the most part Russian and Ukraine people do not tip.  This was one of the many things that surprised me on my first trip almost 19 years ago.

Today little has changed with respect to Russian and Ukraine people tipping.  The very wealthy Russians and Ukrainians will usually tip as they try to acquire some western influences and standards and with many of the wealthy having traveled to the west see this as a typical practice.   But the average Russian and Ukraine citizen does not tip.

Now enter foreigners.

Having been able to know and speak with many ladies over the years who have worked as waitress's I have learned of many of their perceptions as well.  People of different countries have varying reputations as to tipping and many waitress's are keen to wait on foreigners.

Correct or incorrect American's do have a good reputation for tipping.   I know for certain that many waitress's will jump at opportunity to be able to serve an American.  I can assure you that any waitress who has worked more than a few days in a city frequented by foreigners will form a not to good of an opinion of an American who does not tip.  I think it was FP who mentioned something to the effect that when in Rome you do not necessarily do as Romans do.  This is a good example.  Ukraine/Russian people do not tip to people serving their meal.  Unfortunately for any cheap American's who think because Ukraine/Russian people do not tip their servers they can skate by without tipping as well.   Of course you don't have to tip but the cat is out of the bag, has been known for many, many years that American's tip.

Englishmen also have a good reputation for tipping.   And again I know their are and will be exceptions.  Some American's and Englishmen will not tip, especially when they hear or find out tipping is not common in Ukraine or Russia. 

Spaniards, Germen men, Italian men can also be good tippers.   I hear it's a mixed bag, maybe yes, maybe no as far as Frenchmen are perceived.  Again, just some common things said and observed by women who have worked as waitress's.

The amount of tip with me is pretty much the same guidelines I would use in the states.  Good service would be in the 15 to  20% range.   So-so service, 10%.   Bad service 5%.    Outstanding service 20 plus %.

Believe me, I would not want to go back for a second meal at an establishment where I left the waitress no tip.   Even if I did not get the same waitress from the previous visit if that waitress was working there at the time I went back I could only imagine what she might tell my waitress.

Now I'm talking about good, decent restaurants. Not buffets, cafeterias, street vendors or small seasonal operations.  Although their are some exceptions with some small seasonal operations. Underneath my flat in Kiev on Independence Square is a place that makes this wonder dish, similar to a chicken burrito.   Because I frequent this place I will tip here and it is greatly reflected in the service I get, how my food is prepared.

I'll agree that my situation could be somewhat different from most foreigners visiting Ukraine or Russia.  When I find a good place that I like I will visit it often.  I will be recognized by staff year after year at places in Kiev, in Kharkov, in Lugansk, etc.  And it certainly does have it's advantages especially when a place seems full or I only have to wait a few minutes for a table, such as Chateau on Khershatyk.   I enjoy sitting outside in the spring and fall. Many times all tables are taken, or a few are reserved.  I hardly have to wait for an outside table.

Some advice I'll give to any foreigner who is going to spend some time, from several days or a few weeks in the same city.  If you find a place you like, leave a decent tip.  Even in the 10 - 15% range.   You will be pleased with the results.

When it comes to tipping other professions, such as a taxi driver, many times it will depend on the situations.   For the most part one does not tip a taxi driver but if my fee was 28 grivnas and I give the driver 30 grivnas I do not stick around for the 2 grivnas even for a driver I know I'll probably never see or use again.   On occasion I'll run across a taxi driver that is cool, speaks decent English, I like him.  I'll ask for his phone number.  And I'll give him a tip.   It can never hurt a guy to have the phone numbers for two, three, four, good taxi drivers in any city.  And in these cases I'll tip these drivers.

In one sense I feel sorry for most foreign guy's and their experience with taxi drivers.    I now have the experience to know about what a fair should cost to go from the west side to Khershaytk, from Freedom Square to Hotel Mir,  from train station to Deriboska,  from Red Square to Hotel Cosmos, etc.   One of the few Russian words I know is  Sko'ka.   Or  "How much".    Most taxi drivers are going to stick it to foreigners.   If the taxi driver tell's me 90 grivnas and I know the fair should be 30-35 grivnas I will say  nyet.  I will then say 30 grivnas and let him counter back. If he comes back at 35 or 40 grivnas I get in,  otherwise I will walk away and stop another taxi.   Many times after I have begun walking away the taxi driver will say   "ok,  40  grivnas"  and I'll agree.  But it takes time and experience to know this and this is why I say in a sense I feel sorry for foreign men who are stopping a taxi on their own.  Your going to be taken advantage of, just a matter of how much.

It is always best if you are with a Ukr/Rus woman at the time you need a taxi to let the woman stop the taxi. You step back, step away from this lady.  And do not let taxi driver hear you speaking English until your woman has got the price to go where you would like.   Once in taxi or after you have got to where you are going ask the lady what the taxi cost so you will have an idea of cost should you find yourself in similar position and your not with a woman.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15463.50

[msmob]

for the most part Russian and Ukraine people do not tip.  This was one of the many things that surprised me on my first trip almost 19 years ago.

As someone else who still travels the FSU extensively - I disagree .. tipping habits have and are changing - as more and more FSU folk travel abroad - many DO tip good service.

Do as you want to do - don't be bound by what you think others say they do would be my suggestion ..

[JayH]

As someone else who still travels the FSU extensively - I disagree .. tipping habits have and are changing - as more and more FSU folk travel abroad - many DO tip good service.

Do as you want to do - don't be bound by what you think others say they do would be my suggestion ..

Moby-- dare I say it-- it is not me saying that  --but the original post /Please attribute it correctly.

Now-fwiw -I did say   " -- and mostly agree with this extensive post."  without feeling the need to pick to pieces parts that I may have  disagreed with.
The original post is only a page back !!

[drsecu]

I asked a multiple Ukrainians this on my recent trip and was told they never tip when paying with a card but may leave extra change when paying cash.  The biggest reason for this is the service is so bad they may not want to wait for the change.  I tipped but in generally smaller amounts.  The waiters or waitresses that I liked and spoke english to me I tipped up to 25%.  The girls do not like to see you tip, I got some bad looks, I put the money down quick and left after the first few.  I recall tipping the guy that wrapped my luggage as I left 10 hryvnia (he charged 50 for the service, I gave him 60) and the girl shaked her head and said I shouldn't do that.   He did a great job, in the USA the tape would have cost more than his $1.90 fee, I lost a wheel and he put a ton of of it over that section, its like a $.35 tip.

[rw_recruiter]

The waiters or waitresses that I liked and spoke english to me I tipped up to 25%.  The girls do not like to see you tip, I got some bad looks, I put the money down quick and left after the first few. 

I ended up tipping more heavily at the restaurants and lounges we were at as well. Especially if we stayed much longer or the bill was not very high.

Anya did get angry at me the last day when I tried to tip the Uber driver 50 Hrivna. He waited for us at the flower shop and made 2-3 additional stops, I felt bad for the guy. She snatched the bill from me as I was handing it to him and made me give him a 20 instead... oh well.

[Nat]

The reason why your girls get angry with that is that, first of all, all the staff get paid for their work (unlike in the USA, where they live off the tips they get), so tips are more like a pleasant bonus for servers, not their main source of money. So why would you tip excessively?
Second, you raise expectations with such unwise tipping. For example, taxi drivers. Ukrainians usually don't tip taxi drivers, but can occasionally round up the fare, for example, 100uah instead of 96uah. A taxi driver's wage is the money you've paid minus 10% to the dispatcher. Sometimes it's a bit more or a bit less, I'm giving you the average rate. So actually you're paying them directly minus the mediator's fee. And what happens when you tip? During first encounter they are just happy to see a tourist and give a lift to one, because it's kinda unusual and fun and you have to find a way to communicate. After the first tipping they start expecting tourists to always tip. After way too generous tips they start being angry with those who don't tip generously. And it gradually spoils them, and now they aren't interested in talking to you anymore, they view you as a money bag who has way too much money
To cut the story short - speaking of servers, don't tip more than 10-15% and tip ONLY if their service was really great. If the service was just fine but you're itching to tip, don't tip more than 5-10% EVER. If the service was bad, never even think of tipping. Don't spoil people! )))
Taxi drivers, hotel maids, people who open doors for you are usually not tipped. If somebody brings your luggage up, you don't tip, you pay for this service

[Boethius]

The reason why your girls get angry with that is that, first of all, all the staff get paid for their work (unlike in the USA, where they live off the tips they get),

Wait staff do earn a salary in the US, in addition to tips.

[msmob]

Moby-- dare I say it-- it is not me saying that  --but the original post /Please attribute it correctly.

Dare away ..! But - please put a disclaimer in your contributions - if you are going to distance yourself from the opinions you chose to use...

It is bloody difficult to work out where your opinion stops  / starts ...  such is your lack of quotation grammar ..  Perhaps leave your scribes in normal text and colour you chosen examples in all instances ?

[2tallbill]

Wait staff do earn a salary in the US, in addition to tips.

They almost always get a minimum hourly wage. They get zero paid days off,
they don't get sick days. If they are too sick to work then they stay home and
don't get paid. Most are part time since employers don't want to pay for their
health insurance.

A Salary is a fixed regular payment, typically paid on a monthly or biweekly basis but
often expressed as an annual sum, made by an employer to an employee, especially
a professional or white-collar worker. Source dictionary.com

[rw_recruiter]

Wait staff do earn a salary in the US, in addition to tips.

It varies by State. Here in Florida they make less than minimum wage and hourly versus salary. And restaurants keep employees under 40 hours so no benefits for most waitstaff.

The lower than minimum wage pay is never seen as it goes towards taxes. But wait staff can under-declare cash tips to the IRS which helps in some ways.

[rw_recruiter]

They almost always never get a minimum hourly wage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States

Unless I misunderstood you and you meant minimum as in below the standard hourly?

[Nat]

Wait staff do earn a salary in the US, in addition to tips.

Why is it such and insult not to tip in the US unlike other countries? Maybe because of that:
http://www.quora.com/Why-do-American-waiters-expect-a-tip-In-the-UK-you-dont-have-to-give-a-tip-and-in-most-restaurants-a-tip-isn%E2%80%99t-even-customary

"In the USA the waiting staff do not get a living wage. For them, tips isn't a thank you for excellent service, it's their salary. People in the USA (and hopefully visitors) tip accordingly."

Why do you always need to contradict?

[GQBlues]

...To cut the story short - speaking of servers, don't tip more than 10-15% and tip ONLY if they service was really great. If the service was just fine but you're itching to tip, don't tip more than 5-10% EVER. If the service was bad, never even think of tipping. Don't spoil people! ))) [/size]Taxi drivers, hotel maids, people who open doors for you are usually not tipped. If somebody brings your luggage up, you don't tip, you pay for this service

I'm polar opposite to this. I tip generously >20-25%. Sometimes even more. Whether here at home or my travels. I tip anyone who rendered services to me, whether the woman in a kiosk, taxi driver, porter, etc...In my travel, there already was an expectation of what my expense will be, roughly. So it matters little to me what they exchange rate is, I purchase and tip directly relative to the service or goods I receive for the same thing at home.

The only time I ran afoul was when I was in Banska Bystrica, Slovakia. I was at a bar with 10 other folks. Friends. Their currency at the time was still 'koruna'. Since they were mostly university students, I offered to pay for everyone's drinks. 11 people and a round of drinks cost me $14-15 (whatever the local exchange rate of that was. Don't remember exactly). So I was giving the equivalence of $20 and telling the server to keep the rest for her tip. 2 more rounds later, the manager tells one of my friend we need leave. Apparently, the server took offense that I was making her feel like a peasant, complained to the manager.

Strange feeling having to apologize for being 'generous'.

Tipping generously here locally earns one a huge advantage. Especially if you frequent any establishment often.

[Boethius]

Why is it such and insult not to tip in the US unlike other countries? Maybe because of that:
http://www.quora.com/Why-do-American-waiters-expect-a-tip-In-the-UK-you-dont-have-to-give-a-tip-and-in-most-restaurants-a-tip-isn%E2%80%99t-even-customary

"In the USA the waiting staff do not get a living wage. For them, tips isn't a thank you for excellent service, it's their salary. People in the USA (and hopefully visitors) tip accordingly."

Why do you always need to contradict?

Wouldn't the forum be boring if we all agreed?

In both Canada and the US, tipping is the norm.  Waiters generally make minimum wage, in some states (not anywhere in Canada, where by law, they must be paid minimum wage), less, so the balance of service is made up through tips.

In most European countries, a gratuity is added automatically to the bill.  The UK is uneven in this regard.

Most restaurants here pool tips, so that a percentage of tips go to kitchen staff as well. 

They almost always get a minimum hourly wage. They get zero paid days off,
they don't get sick days.

It depends on the state.  Some states have legislated a minimum number of sick days.  California just passed their law.

[Boethius]

Tipping generously here locally earns one a huge advantage. Especially if you frequent any establishment often.

Yup.  I always tip 25% at the restaurants we go to often (though we don't go out much now - it was our typical Friday night with the kids).

[jone]

I'm polar opposite to this. I tip generously >20-25%. Sometimes even more. Whether here at home or my travels. I tip anyone who rendered services to me, whether the woman in a kiosk, taxi driver, porter, etc...In my travel, there already was an expectation of what my expense will be, roughly. So it matters little to me what they exchange rate is, I purchase and tip directly relative to the service or goods I receive for the same thing at home.

The only time I ran afoul was when I was in Banska Bystrica, Slovakia. I was at a bar with 10 other folks. Friends. Their currency at the time was still 'koruna'. Since they were mostly university students, I offered to pay for everyone's drinks. 11 people and a round of drinks cost me $14-15 (whatever the local exchange rate of that was. Don't remember exactly). So I was giving the equivalence of $20 and telling the server to keep the rest for her tip. 2 more rounds later, the manager tells one of my friend we need leave. Apparently, the server took offense that I was making her feel like a peasant, complained to the manager.

Strange feeling having to apologize for being 'generous'.

Tipping generously here locally earns one a huge advantage. Especially if you frequent any establishment often.

I have had that happen before.  I like to tip as well.  Had a drink ticket for $12.50 yesterday.  Gave the gal a twenty.  When she was obviously confused and brought back change, I indicated to her that it was all hers.  She thought I was out of line and refused the tip, totally.  And that is here in LA (downtown LA at a watering hole).

I didn't think anything of it until you just brought it up.  She was actually offended that I would tip too much.

[JayH]

I ended up tipping more heavily at the restaurants and lounges we were at as well. Especially if we stayed much longer or the bill was not very high.

Anya did get angry at me the last day when I tried to tip the Uber driver 50 Hrivna. He waited for us at the flower shop and made 2-3 additional stops, I felt bad for the guy. She snatched the bill from me as I was handing it to him and made me give him a 20 instead... oh well.

Funny --I made comment on much the same thing in recent discussion over tipping -- that the amount gets reviewed !!

[JayH]

The reason why your girls get angry with that is that, first of all, all the staff get paid for their work (unlike in the USA, where they live off the tips they get), so tips are more like a pleasant bonus for servers, not their main source of money. So why would you tip excessively?
Second, you raise expectations with such unwise tipping. For example, taxi drivers. Ukrainians usually don't tip taxi drivers, but can occasionally round up the fare, for example, 100uah instead of 96uah. A taxi driver's wage is the money you've paid minus 10% to the dispatcher. Sometimes it's a bit more or a bit less, I'm giving you the average rate. So actually you're paying them directly minus the mediator's fee. And what happens when you tip? During first encounter they are just happy to see a tourist and give a lift to one, because it's kinda unusual and fun and you have to find a way to communicate. After the first tipping they start expecting tourists to always tip. After way too generous tips they start being angry with those who don't tip generously. And it gradually spoils them, and now they aren't interested in talking to you anymore, they view you as a money bag who has way too much money
To cut the story short - speaking of servers, don't tip more than 10-15% and tip ONLY if their service was really great. If the service was just fine but you're itching to tip, don't tip more than 5-10% EVER. If the service was bad, never even think of tipping. Don't spoil people! )))
Taxi drivers, hotel maids, people who open doors for you are usually not tipped. If somebody brings your luggage up, you don't tip, you pay for this service

I highlighted a point -- that is not always correct .Staff are often very underpaid and rely on tips to make it worthwhile.
Business take the opportunity to exploit employees based on the concept of the opportunity they are getting --to earn more via tips.

[JayH]

I asked a multiple Ukrainians this on my recent trip and was told they never tip when paying with a card but may leave extra change when paying cash.  The biggest reason for this is the service is so bad they may not want to wait for the change.  I tipped but in generally smaller amounts.  The waiters or waitresses that I liked and spoke english to me I tipped up to 25%.  The girls do not like to see you tip, I got some bad looks, I put the money down quick and left after the first few.  I recall tipping the guy that wrapped my luggage as I left 10 hryvnia (he charged 50 for the service, I gave him 60) and the girl shaked her head and said I shouldn't do that.   He did a great job, in the USA the tape would have cost more than his $1.90 fee, I lost a wheel and he put a ton of of it over that section, its like a $.35 tip.

If you had read my recent posts in 2 threads where the tipping question arose you would have seen my advice--

if paying by card -do not include the tip but leave in cash directly to the wait staff as possible --- why? -- because owners/manager etc can hijack tip without wait  staff ever knowing you left it.
Different establishments  can treat tips differently--eg some places the practice many be to pool tips and split between all staff .If that is the case -I still prefer to direct  tip and let them sort it out.
I think it is thoroughly unreasonable to only tip on the basis they spoke English to you -- that is not a factor in good service -- the service should be judged on performance -- not as if you are in the Raj !!

[JayH]

Strange feeling having to apologize for being 'generous'.

That is a definite real possibility  and a very good reason not to go over the top with size  of tip.
While the amount itself may not be large in itself --the tip needs to stay in proportion of the local standards.
Funnily enough -- girls checking the size of tips has already been mentioned a few times in the recent posts here in thread--and I commented on it a few weeks ago.

An exception I can think of is where ( eg example of Uber driver above) a driver has done something exceptional . A most useful thing you can do if in a city for any time --or planning on returning --is to make a driver your own -- so you call him at any time-- he comes-he is there on time waiting for you etc.   Cars cost,his time is valuable --paying him a premium will make your life so much easier.

[Nat]

Wouldn't the forum be boring if we all agreed?

Well... you've got a point here!