What is procedure for profiling scammers in scammers section?

[Jack]

I have a question for management with regards to the scammers link.

"What are the requirements to add a scammer to this link?"

I'm not sure and would like some clarification. It's disgusting enough seeing so-called anti-scam sites like Honest Jim's Agencyscams who add good and sincere women as scammers. What a terrible thing to do to some good women. I would hate to see RWD fall into the same sewer hole as Honest Jim.

I was thinking, and maybe I'm wrong this is why I am asking, but I thought if a member of this site was scammed, or thought he was scammed, and he was willing to tell his story, his experience, and he was willing to stand behind his post, that this was an acceptable practice in which to submit or write about a scammer.

I heard this one lady in Moscow (Tatiana) was a scammer. I don't know her, never met her, never heard a second guy claim she was a scammer, but my good friends second cousin's brother-in-law was told by his Uncle Bill that this Tatiana (whose photo of her was in a bikini at the beach) was a scammer. Uncle Bill's sister Elena told him no good woman would send him her photo of her in a bikini and so in her opinion she was a bad girl.

Is that enough information to post Tatiana as a scammer in the RWD scammers section?

[viking]

My two cents on this, having been a victim some years ago.

Unless there is FIRST HAND information, with letters, emails, western union receipts and so forth to back up a claim that a woman is a scammer, then she should not be posted on any scam site. The reason for posting a woman on a scam site is to try and prevent another man from getting ripped off. And even then, the first iteration should be a 'grey' list and only moved to a bone fide 'black' list after a second, completely different person, submits documentation on the same woman. This ensures a man is not being vindicitive for some other reason.

By definition, a scammer is a person (man or woman) who tries to solicit money under false pretenses. If no money exchanges hands, no one was actually scammed, but the intent is there and some other man may not be as smart and fall prey. Maybe there should be a 'slightly grey' list for women who try, but have not really figured out how to get to first base yet.

[Admin]

I have a question for management with regards to the scammers link.

"What are the requirements to add a scammer to this link?"

I'm not sure and would like some clarification. It's disgusting enough seeing so-called anti-scam sites like Honest Jim's Agencyscams who add good and sincere women as scammers. What a terrible thing to do to some good women. I would hate to see RWD fall into the same sewer hole as Honest Jim.

I was thinking, and maybe I'm wrong this is why I am asking, but I thought if a member of this site was scammed, or thought he was scammed, and he was willing to tell his story, his experience, and he was willing to stand behind his post, that this was an acceptable practice in which to submit or write about a scammer.

I heard this one lady in Moscow (Tatiana) was a scammer. I don't know her, never met her, never heard a second guy claim she was a scammer, but my good friends second cousin's brother-in-law was told by his Uncle Bill that this Tatiana (whose photo of her was in a bikini at the beach) was a scammer. Uncle Bill's sister Elena told him no good woman would send him her photo of her in a bikini and so in her opinion she was a bad girl.

Is that enough information to post Tatiana as a scammer in the RWD scammers section?

Jack,

There is no "procedure" per se. You might recall when we first setup a section for scammers, I was concerned about the possibility of false reports, and I included this sticky more than a year ago -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=52.0.

RWD is not, and never will be, a venue which has any sort of investigation or enforcement authority. We are, therefore, unable to do much when someone posts here, except to challenge the veracity of the claim. If someone were to repeatedly post scam reports which were highly-questionable, something might need to be done in that case - but to date, that has not happened.

For my part - if someone comes onto RWD and posts about a scam but lacks a VERY compelling story, my inclination is to not afford it much, if any, credibility.

Ultimately, it will be left to each RWD member to determine whether they believe, or not, anything which is posted here. I hope they will recognize the possibility that some scam reports may not be credible at all.

- Dan

[SANDRO43]

Unless there is FIRST HAND information, with letters, emails, western union receipts and so forth to back up a claim that a woman is a scammer, then she should not be posted on any scam site.

Just a clarification : do you think that the actual transfer of money is required, or may just its request suffice ?

Personally, I reported the girl referred to in another thread when I received this : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2566.msg48884#msg48884, and felt it was reason enough. When I recently discovered she is ALSO a hooker, I felt all the more justified.

If one had to wait until money was echanged, then one would also have to wait for proof that money was used for purposes other than the intended ones, etc. Take also in consideration the "loss-of-face" factor that may prevent people from ever confessing publicly that they have been made total fools of .

[Turboguy]

I think it would be hard to say positivly that someone is a scammer unless you send money and she disappears.  After all she really could be sick or have a sick child or need dental work, not be able to afford to e-mail or have had a car wreck.   She could even actually have a visa for America and be looking for someone to show her around.  I have seen scenarios that were very close to what the scammers say when they want money that were on the up and up. 

[SANDRO43]

I think it would be hard to say positivly that someone is a scammer unless you send money and she disappears.

OK, TG, maybe we can redefine that as : an early request for money from someone you hardly know and cannot trust.

After all she really could be sick or have a sick child or need dental work, not be able to afford to e-mail or have had a car wreck. She could even actually have a visa for America and be looking for someone to show her around.  I have seen scenarios that were very close to what the scammers say when they want money that were on the up and up.

The sickness/accident scenarios are favourites, along with visa/tickets and Internet/translations. Already having a visa and asking money from a potential USA-tour guide sounds rather unusual to me. But probably you have more experience in this area than I have.

[Turboguy]

I have had lots of gals I hardly knew ask me for money.  Some were likely scammers some I really don't think were.   There is a belief among some people there that Americans are all millionares so I think with some of the really poor ones when they have a real problem they figure we would be willing to help them even though we don't know them very well becasue here money grows on trees.   If they really have a problem and ask one of us for help even though they don't really know us that well it does not make them a scammer.  It might make them stupid.  Of course if we send the money to them we are even more stupid.

Just as one example.  There was a gal I wrote a few years ago who just got along financially.  She seemed like a nice gal but not that pretty.  She wrote me about 10 letters begging me to help her because she had her front tooth knocked out.  From looking at her before photos and from what I know about FSU dentistry, I really think she was on the up and up.  I think she struggled to keep food on the table and was devistated by loosing the front tooth.  I think she was also worried I would come and visit her and she would loose me because I did not like the way she looked with the missing tooth.  I never sent her any money but I did believe her. 

I had another gal from southern Ukraine write 15 letters begging for a water filter.   I happen to have one here new in a box that probably cost $ 20.00.  (It was a gift to me).  I don't think she was a scammer.  She comes from an area with horrible water and evidently can't afford one.  I had planned to send it to her but never got around to it.  I don't see that gal as a scammer either.  Asking for money is not scamming.  Asking for money under false pretenses is scamming.

[ConnerVT]

I don't see that gal as a scammer either.  Asking for money is not scamming.  Asking for money under false pretenses is scamming.

People whom you do not know, that ask you for money, are not scammers.  They are beggars.

In any case, it is semantics.  If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

The Administration answered the original question.

[Jack]

Hey Dan,

Hope all is well with you.

I went over the link you included above. With regards to ......"Also be prepared to defend your claims of scamming activity.".....   I would like to ask, or write questions to, the person or persons who claimed they were scammed by Sensuality.  Who would that person, or persons be?

[Bruno]

I would like to ask, or write questions to, the person or persons who claimed they were scammed by Sensuality.  Who would that person, or persons be?

The person who have post sensuality like a scammer have not make it on RWD but on a other site... Soo, contact yourself the owner of these other site for more information...

[Jack]

Bruno, why would a person who post's such a report about a woman on another site have to, or be prepared to, defend his claims on this site if he never posted his report on this site?

Dan has said that any person who post's a scam report on the RWD should be prepared to defend his claim. If this "person" did not post this report on this site, and therefore is not bound by RWD guidelines to be prepared to defend his claim, then why is his post on this site?

And Bruno I don't know, maybe you do, is there more than this one person's report on this woman? Are you aware of a second or third individual who has reported her as a scammer, or are you only aware of this one "person" report?

[Admin]

Bruno, why would a person who post's such a report about a woman on another site have to, or be prepared to, defend his claims on this site if he never posted his report on this site?

Dan has said that any person who post's a scam report on the RWD should be prepared to defend his claim. If this "person" did not post this report on this site, and therefore is not bound by RWD guidelines to be prepared to defend his claim, then why is his post on this site?

And Bruno I don't know, maybe you do, is there more than this one person's report on this woman? Are you aware of a second or third individual who has reported her as a scammer, or are you only aware of this one "person" report?

Jack,

I am not sure what you are trying to get at.

The record of what transpired is clearly described on the open board and available for all to review.

I personally do not think Marina is a scammer - but others are entitled to their own opinions based on what has been written here.

Elsewhere, someone made a report that Marina is a scammer. THAT is the venue where these things should be addressed - at least, in terms of the specific claims against Marina.

Here at RWD, we should, IMO, debate and maybe prepare a set of 'standards' for what constitutes scamming behavior - and what assurances should be expected from ANY website who claims to publish a "blacklist".

- Dan

[Maverick Mikey]

Surely the should be some eveidence before slinging mud?

[Admin]

Surely the should be some eveidence before slinging mud?

RWD is NOT a court. We have no possibility to evaluate the veracity of "evidence" - and we have no enforcement authority.

This whole debate strikes me as a big tadoo over nothing. We cannot, and never will, have the ability to weigh any "evidence" presented. We do not, and never will, have enforcement authority to act on anything brought into the forum.

All we can do is provide a platform for people to report their experiences. It is up to each RWD member to take away from what ensues, the information that is of value to them.

There really isn't anything else we can do at RWD.

- Dan

[Jack]

Dan, I agree.

Right now this woman is in the scammers section accused of being a scammer.  Who here, what member of RWD reported her as a scammer?  I'm not 100% sure because I have not taken the time to read the entire thread, maybe there is a member, but from what I gather someone reported her on another board or site.

Dan this is exactly how Honest Jim has got three very good women on his site as scammers. He also took information from another board or site. I have asked him to please furnish me any information he has about these three good women and of course he does not respond, even after I furnished him with information about these three women showing, proving they were good women. But they are, or were a few weeks ago, still on his site as scammers. How disgusting. And because the three women are all Ukraine women the Russian authorities we have talked with aren't so interested in pursuing our charges against Honest Jim.

I would hope that the RWD would be known as a more accurate and reliable site than Honest Jim's site and by us doing what we have done to this woman, were not.  Who has she scammed?  Let's see, one guy was engaged to her and he say's she was writing other men!  I think there was one guy on RWD who was doing a K-1, bringing a woman over and during the K-1 he was still writing, talking to other women. So he would be a scammer as well? 

I know of many cases where guys just stopped the K-1 in the middle of the process. For a woman to be writing other men while she was engaged, if this did indeed happen, does NOT make her a scammer. I made the same mistake early during my own pursuit. I thought I was going to marry Svetlana Burtseva and told the other interested ladies I had made my choice. When Svetlana and I decided to stop the K-1 process I called up some of the ladies I was previously interested in, and who I had told I was going to marry another woman and that I had changed my mind, and I would like to see them again. Politely and not so politely I was told where to shove it. No Russian woman wants to be the second choice and after this I learned do not end potential relationships with other ladies until the fiancée is in America.

I think the woman has no business being on the RWD scammers link unless someone, and I would think a member of RWD, came forward and made such a report on her. If this is not happening or does not happen, then how and why is she listed as a scammer?

She should not be based on the information I have heard.   And as I understand it, were to take the words of one man that she is a scammer. Maybe he was the scammer.

[Admin]

Jack,

I split and moved the topic so that it was NOT in the Announcements section - so I guess *I* am the one who reported Marina as a scammer in that the reason this topic about her is in the Scammers section is due to my action.

Also - there is NO COMPARISON between whatever is published on Jim's List - and what is published here. The venues are organized for completely different purposes.

- Dan

[Jack]

Dan, I was writing my response to your previous to last post when I wrote above I agree.

I agree with your post where you say we need to form some guidlines. I do not agree with your last post.

[Admin]

Dan, I was writing my response to your previous to last post when I wrote above I agree.

I agree with your post where you say we need to form some guidlines. I do not agree with your last post.

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.

When Sensuality first posted, it was in the "Married" section.

I wished her a Happy Birthday when her birthday came around and I made my post in the Announcements section.

The topic turned into one of our feeding frenzies which had a lull, and then re-started. When it re-started, I decided the feeding frenzy did not belong in the Announcements section, hence, I moved it to the Scammers section since it had elements of scamming allegations.

So quite clearly, it was ME that is responsible for Marina's name being brought up in the context of the RWD Scammers sections. That seems irrefutable.

Similary, you referenced Jim's List which has a completely different objective than what we have here at RWD. I should think you could not disagree with that.

So I am not sure what you disagree with.

[Jack]

Dan, what I agree with,.....



Here at RWD, we should, IMO, debate and maybe prepare a set of 'standards' for what constitutes scamming behavior

to be entirely fair to everyone and insure there are no false allegations of scamming activity without sufficient evidence.

Also be prepared to defend your claims of scamming activity. While I feel that identification of scammers is a worthwhile service to readers of the board, I am also sensitive to the possibility that some people might interpret innocent behaviors as scamming activity directed at them.

if someone comes onto RWD and posts about a scam but lacks a VERY compelling story, my inclination is to not afford it much, if any, credibility.

provide a platform for people to report their experiences.




What I disagree with,...........


There really isn't anything else we can do at RWD.

There is no "procedure" per se.

unable to do much when someone posts here, except to challenge the veracity of the claim.

Elsewhere, someone made a report that Marina is a scammer.

THAT is the venue where these things should be addressed - at least, in terms of the specific claims against Marina.







And of course the next questions might be with regards as to what I disagree with and what might be a recommendation and or solution(s).



......"There really isn't anything else we can do at RWD.".....

Sure there is. Do not allow any post of proclamed scammer by anyone who is not willing or able to answer any questions about the scam they are reporting.



......"There is no "procedure" per se."......


Then create and set some standards. Ask for input from the members and set some standards. One of such would not allow second hand scam reports from other sources, sites, discussion boards. If scam is posted on RWD, then someone who has registered on RWD is the one to post of such a scam or scammer.



......"unable to do much when someone posts here, except to challenge the veracity of the claim."......


Unable to do much?  How about not allowing any post of a woman scammer to even be posted unless the person posting said woman scammer is able to address questions about the scam and scammer.


......"Elsewhere, someone made a report that Marina is a scammer. THAT is the venue where these things should be addressed - at least, in terms of the specific claims against Marina.".....



Elsewhere!  Elsewhere someone made a report about Marina? Then let that report remain elsewhere unless the reporting party wants to make such a report on RWD. We should NOT be addressing the validity of a proclaimed scammer from a site Elsewhere because such report from Elsewhere should not even be allowed to be posted on RWD.



Dan my thought is unless there is someone out there willing to post there experience with this woman as a scammer, and be able to address any questions about his proclaimed scam, RWD has no business listing this woman as a scammer in the RWD scammers link section.

[Admin]

Jack,

I am not going to turn RWD into a scammer blacklist. Much like RWD is NOT an agency or introduction venue, neither is it a blacklist. RWD was established as a communication and community-building venue.

I am not going to do much more than I have already done in terms of setting policy on the Scammers section. I think the policy is sufficient to enable RWD members to judge for themselves whether a reported scammer is real or not.

If you, or anyone else, thinks we need to change things - particularly when I don't see the need - maybe run a poll and see what the other members feel. I can be persuaded - but for now, I have stated when I think is the correct position.

- Dan

[Jack]

Dan I have spoke my peace, I have spent to much time on this issue today and need to get back to work. With the greatest of respect we will just respectfully disagree.