Russian/Ukranian women - views on sex before marriage?

[2tallbill]

I would be careful about how or if if is brought up before meeting, with some girls such talk could be an early sign to her that you are a sex tourist. She may go into hitting you for buying her stuff on arrival especially if she doesn't like you all that much. Even humourous talk on sex may start her thinking the wrong way.

I have excellent interpersonal skills. I understand what works for me, might not work for
someone with low level social skills. I also have the ability to make girls laugh, that also
helps them lower their barriers to communication. Sure, they have fears, but not of me,
and not for long.

I can read a woman's face, her body language etc. Sometimes I read it wrong and thought
a woman meant for me to come hither (she is only human) when she did not. 

You get better at things with experience.

[2tallbill]

A kiss is not something you explain about or ask permission.

A kiss is something you do.

I agree enough that it's written in my signature of every post I make.

[2tallbill]

I don't really agree with this. To me the speed of the sexual relationship is all up to the woman. Some women would rather take it more slowly. There is a very fine line however between your bored friend category and moving forward. My limited knowledge of Russian/Ukrainian women is this. If she's traveling Europe, especially on her own dime, she's not interested in being friends.
I'm not sure who's paying for these trips. If the poster is paying and we are in this situation I agree with ML, if the lady is paying her own way, then I am inlined to follow her lead.

A serious FSUW wants a man to seduce her and to win her heart. She doesn't want to do
the seducing. She will flirt and encourage a man while he is pursuing her. BUT she wants him
to make the move. If you don't make the move she will believe that you are not interested
in her.

Kiss the girl !!
Make the move !!

If she isn't ready or isn't interested she knows how to communicate that.
It's far better to try too soon rather than too late.

[krimster2]

kiss?
I'd go straight for "naked bania" after the third date!

and pretend ya didn't know that ya hafta get COMPLETELY NAKED for the sauna
and try to not act "too pervy", cuz that shows 'immaturity' when she makes eye contact with you

and if you incels don't know what it's like to sit naked in a sauna with a beautful woman you just met
well that's unfortunate...

[ML]

A serious FSUW wants a man to seduce her and to win her heart. She doesn't want to do the seducing. She will flirt and encourage a man while he is pursuing her. BUT she wants him
to make the move.

Not always my experience.

I had several high class, highly educated FSU gals take the lead in initiating sex.  I wouldn't say they tried to seduce me . . . they just went right for it.  As I understand it . . . seduction is a series of acts over some time period to achieve an end.  So when they just go for it . . . I don't consider that seduction.

Likewise, I don't consider that I ever tried to seduce any woman . . . again, in terms of a series of acts over some time period directed toward  achieving sex.

Just try to have a good time with them and things usually develop naturally . . . or not.

I would estimate that sex occurred with about a third of the FSU gals that I met.

A few on first date, a few on second date, a lot on third date and there were even a few where sex didn't occur until 4th or 5th date. 

For those latter cases, I didn't follow the rule to dump them for perceived lack of interest, because there were extenuating circumstances.  e.g. we were both exhausted, one of us became ill, one of us had important meetings occur, etc.

[2tallbill]

Not always my experience.

I had several high class, highly educated FSU gals take the lead in initiating sex.  I wouldn't say they tried to seduce me . . . they just went right for it.  As I understand it . . . seduction is a series of acts over some time period to achieve an end.  So when they just go for it . . . I don't consider that seduction.

Likewise, I don't consider that I ever tried to seduce any woman . . . again, in terms of a series of acts over some time period directed toward  achieving sex.

Just try to have a good time with them and things usually develop naturally . . . or not.

I would estimate that sex occurred with about a third of the FSU gals that I met.

A few on first date, a few on second date, a lot on third date and there were even a few where sex didn't occur until 4th or 5th date. 

For those latter cases, I didn't follow the rule to dump them for perceived lack of interest, because there were extenuating circumstances.  e.g. we were both exhausted, one of us became ill, one of us had important meetings occur, etc.

Different men have different goals. Men who are pursuing women with the specific goal of
finding a wife with a woman seeking a husband approach these things differently. I don't
think that was your goal in those days and I don't think you told women that it was. As a
result they/you had different expectations.

I rarely would have met a girl on a meet many trip if I was exhausted. I would have been
disappointed if a woman agreed to meet with me ill or exhausted. There would not have
been a second date.

My posts/advice are not meant for people who are casually dating. I did a ton of casual
dating in the USA before my first marriage. My advice is written primarily for those who
need to maximize the short time they spend in the FSU.

[2tallbill]

Hi guys,

I wanted to post my story here and get people's thoughts.  I have been corresponding with a lovely Ukrainian lady for a year and a half, and made visits to her in Kiev, several times over the course of 2011.  (I am in my late 30s and she is in her mid 20s).

Initial meetings
We meet on ElenasModels in late 2010/early 2011, and she quickly moves the conversation to her personal email.  She finds me on Skype and starts messaging me, and we start sending each other a few photos.  Things went really well, we have a lot in common, we can talk for hours, and things like that.  After a few months or writing in early 2011, we started talking about meeting.  She is a saleswoman for a Ukrainian medical supplies company, so sometimes her job takes her to various cities in Europe.  We talked about meeting in Rome, but she said that she had to be in Spain for a project so I said that was okay and I would come to Kiev to see her.  So another date in summer 2011 I met her, and met her again in late 2011.  To summarise, our dates went very well, we talked a lot, had a good time.  When we kissed goodnight, she would only kiss me on the cheek at this time.  I met her again in late 2011 in Kiev, and we had a good time again, we did a lot of fun things together and she introduced me to her friends at the end of the trip.  Again, when we kissed goodnight, it was on the cheek but on the last night, it was on the edge of the mouth.

So in 2012, we talked about our next meeting, and I definitely wanted to be with her in February for Valentine's Day.  She was traveling to Switzerland and Germany, so she suggested meeting in Germany since she was visiting her best girl friend there.  I travel over there, and I meet her and her friend, but her friend is nice enough to leave us alone for most of the trip.  We look into each others eyes a lot (we always do this from here on out), we kiss on the edge of the mouth a few times, not just when saying goodbye but also as a spur of the moment things.  At the end of this trip, we are kissing each other on the lips, and holding hands.

Traveling together
We talk about the next meeting, and she suggests that since she has a multiple entry visa for Western Europe, we take a trip together.  So we talk about places neither of us have been to, but want to visit so we decide on a long weekend in Norway together in April.  So I plan for the trip, and put everything on my expense (including her plane ticket from Kiev to Oslo), meet her and we have a good time.  Since this would be the first time we are sleeping together in the same bed, I go into this with the hope about "getting lucky", but I decide I'm not going to try anything as I do not want to look too aggressive about sex, and I want her to feel comfortable around me.  We sleep in the same bed, kissing each other goodnight and she plays with my hair in the morning, and she gives me a back rub since my allergies are bothering me at the time.  However, we do not have sex, I do not make a move and although she sleeps in her lingerie and takes her bra off for comfort reasons, she sleeps face down and wraps a towel around her whenever she goes out of bed so she doesn't show me anything.  The rest of the trip goes like this, we have a great time together, kissing on the lips (no tongue, I tried once but she didn't play along) sleeping in each others underwear with each other (we hold each other but in order to sleep we just go on our sides of the bed.  I tried to hold her around her stomach area but she asked me not to do that since her stomach was sensitive).  But we still walk around Oslo holding hands, we look at each other warmly a lot, and the overall vibe is good.

The end of this trip goes well, and we talk about our next trip.  She mentions that she can get a week off work on May 2012 so we talk about places to visit.  She recommends Switzerland, since I have never been there and she has traveled there before with her mom and for work.  So we spend a full week together, but this is a more aggressive trip since we are driving around a lot and only spending a few days in each city.  We are still kissing and long looks into each others eyes, and this time holding hands, but when going to bed she wears a nightie this time.  Furthermore, when showering and getting dressed, she brings all her clothes into the bathroom and and I do not see her in her lingerie this time, she always emerges from the shower fully clothed.  Because this trip is going to so many places, we are usually tired when going to bed but everytime before we go to bed she holds me for a few minutes and kisses me several times goodnight.  I did not make a move on this Switzerland trip, since I was tired from the trip schedule and plus I did not want to jeopardize the relationship by coming on too strong.  So we ended the trip by kissing each other repeatedly, I smile and ask if I can call her "my girlfriend", she smiles and laughs sweetly.  She says, "That's a new word for me" and kisses me several times.  She then teaches me the Russian word for girlfriend.  We look back at each other when we part ways on separate planes, and I think the trip ends on a good note, part of me wonders if it's a bad sign about the fact that we have not been intimate yet.

Summary of where we are now
Since then, we have been emailing each other as usual, and talking about visiting her in Kiev this August.  We email pictures to each other, and just a few days ago, she emailed me a picture of her in a bikini for the first time.  Keep in mind that every other picture she has sent to me before this week, she is dressed normally.  Also, she dresses very conservatively and does not show too much leg, cleavage or anything like that. 

Also, I get the feeling that she is very conservative about sexual matters because:
1) She is religious, she prays every night before going to bed, and when visiting Europe, whenever we go into a cathedral, she kneels down, does the sign of the Cross three times, and prays.  Although I believe in God, I do not practice a religion.  She told me that she came to God when we was in college and fell really sick, a friend gave her a Bible and she started reading it and instantly felt better.  Since then, she says, she has really made the most out of life.
2) She takes a conservative and moralistic worldview in matters.  She will have a few drinks of alcohol, but she takes a dim view of marijuana and other drugs.  When we were in Switzerland, my friends who live there told me stories of women from the poorer Eurozone countries coming into Switzerland to do escort jobs.  She just shook her head and said, "It's amazing what one can do if one has no moral standards."
3) She laughs at all of my jokes, but just once I mentioned an off color joke about an American tourist in France who inadvertently used the French equivalent of the F-word, and she said, "I don't find that funny."

My American guy friends do not trust her
However, my guy friends in the US do not trust her.  They know we met on ElenasModels, they googled EM and showed me a bunch of links to scams on EM (I think that EM itself is legitimate, but there are scammers who try to use it) and my friends think that she is using me for free trips, and the fact we haven't had sex yet is worrying.  My friends tell me to have a discussion of her about her view on sex, and if she gives me some BS, dump her.  However, she may be waiting until marriage or wanting to know me really really well before taking that step.  My guy friends are like "You've known her for a year and a half!" but this is not like the USA M-F relationship where you are living in the same city.

My friends think she is using me for free trips, since she emailed me a picture of her in a bikini for the first time recently, and they said that is weird, because she is a prude in bed and it is like she is rubbing my nose in the fact we haven't had sex yet.  They point out that in the same email that she sent the first bikini photo, it was a reply to my email about sponsoring her on a visa to visit me in the US, so they say that it was just an encouragement to get her to pay for the next trip.  And my friends don't think that she is really saving herself for marriage or waiting to have sex because the temptation is too great, and nobody saves themselves for marriage in these times.

However, she has made no direct attempt to scam me so far because:
1) She has never asked me to send her money nor buy her anything.  When she goes shopping, she buys everything herself.
2) Although I pay for everything on our dates and when we travel, I pay for the travel expenses, she gives me gifts, like a box of chocolates, or men's cologne, and heart shaped soap.  In our trip to Switzerland, she even bought my friend who let us stay at his place wine and chocolates as a thank you gift, even though I didn't ask her to do so, since my friend had refused an offer of a gift from me when we talked to each other
3) She doesn't insist on buying expensive things, and won't complain if we end up eating at less expensive restaurants occasionally.

Conclusion
So what do you guys think?  I read an article about FSU women linked from RWD, and it says that women waiting until marriage for sex is not common in the FSU, and if you hear that, you should run as its usually a scam.  However, this woman is really special, we connect in so many ways, we have similar personalities, and I genuinely enjoy spending time with her.  If she is using me for free trips, then end it but if she is being honest and genuine, then I really want to see if this develops into something really serious and marriage (we have talked about marriage and we both want a family).  My American guy friends have told me to flat out ask her about our relationship and how she feels about a sexual relationship between us - if she gives me some BS or "waiting until marriage" then end it.  However, I do not want to be this direct, and I certainly do not want to look like I am just trying to "get laid".  I am looking for a wife, not an escort.  Then again, I need to know she wants to be with me for me, not the fact that I am paying for a few trips a year.  How should I bring up the subject of intimacy with this girl?  If she wants to wait, I will respect her even more for that if she is being honest and genuine.

Thanks a lot!

When I visited a woman wovo I told her to wear panties that would look good hanging from the
lamp. You should know how butt cheeks quivers during her orgasms. If she was a religious girl,
you should have known this before you got on a plane. Maybe she doesn't like sex? Russian
women have mouths, tongues and know how to speak, peck on keyboards and send text
messages. 

WHY DON'T YOU COMMUNICATE WITH HER??#!!

I am embarrassed for you.

[Daveman]

I remember this one.  Our hero spent nearly two years galivanting with this lady on multiple trips only to be dumped for Roverdimir in the end. 

[ML]

I remember this one.  Our hero spent nearly two years galivanting with this lady on multiple trips only to be dumped for Roverdimir in the end.

Yes, I remember this story also.

And in Dear Abby just recently a guy tells story of gal he dated for years and years since junior high or some such.
They agreed from beginning there would be no sex for various reasons.

Then he went off to college and she banged the first guy that came along.

Goes to the premise that many (most ?) gals go for sexually aggressive guys . . . or at least for those who show some 'normal' male behavior.

Now, at my advanced age, I could sleep for a couple of nights in same bed with a new woman without sex . . . but by third night . . .

I couldn't do this in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.

[2tallbill]

Now, at my advanced age, I could sleep for a couple of nights in same bed with a new woman without sex . . . but by third night . . .

I couldn't do this in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.

I could do it too if she was fat, smelled bad or was related to me.