Letter Writing, Translating and Forwarding via an Agency

[Gator]

Turboguy made some comments in his Trip Report to Ukraine about the workings of agencies.  This prompted a couple of readers to make some unfounded comments. 

I recently used some of Turbo's agencies.  Rather than burdening his trip report with my opinion, I thought it best to report my observations in a new thread.

I visited three agencies.  I will use the Cindy Agency as an example, yet the other two seem to use the same MO. 

Cindy charges men $4-5 per letter for interpretation and “forwarding”.   How does this work?  At any time one can see 2 - 4 interpreters in the Agency office working the letters sent by the men via email.   The interpreter translates each letter into Russian, calls the woman, reads the letter, notes the woman’s response, and writes the response to the man.  For this effort, the interpreter receives 4 hryvnia ($0.80) per incoming letter.

The $4-5 per letter price does seem like a bargain compared to large, multi-listing agencies.  However, Cindy does not provide a hard copy to the woman.  And although the interpreters seem to be excellent translators, they read the letters over the phone without feeling and as if they are on amphetamine.  So all the carefully crafted words from some hopeless romantic lose some of their intended luster.   

A woman is free to come to the office to read a hard copy of a man’s letter and see his photos.  Yet, these women have such busy schedules that I saw few actually do this.  The important point is that a woman hears each letter and she dictates a response.  There seems to be no churning of false letters. 

In the distant past, AJ said something about the agency perhaps initiating the first letter.  And this could be the case of the Agency playing cupid to get things rolling between new men and women clients whom the agency feels are sincere.  A few women wrote me first and in retrospect these easily could have been a canned intro letter specific to each woman.  However, subsequent letters from all women were clearly original thoughts responding to my questions and comments.  I met two of the women who wrote me first and both are sincere. 

A reader made a comment that the most popular women did not email directly with men because they receive a commission for each letter sent through the agency.  I do not think this is the case.  One great looking woman fluent in English gave me her email addy and said nothing about using the agency.   My opinion - why would a busy woman take the time to email directly (and the problems of computer generated translations especailly when some dumbass fails to spell correctly).  Instead, the agency will call the women and read a properly translated letter. 

I find the $5 per letter a great bargain.  Besides getting to know a woman, if you write at least three letters the agency will schedule meetings with the woman when you arrive.

 

[Dan C.]

Interesting perspective, esp. the cost for the agency vrs. how much the client pays per letter.  Wouldn't the agency have it in its best interests to drag things out and get you to write a few more letters?

Dan C.

[Gator]

Hi Dan,

I do not think the agency does anything purposefully to extend the process.  Instead, any dragging out is due to the indecisiveness of the men clients.

One should use this type of service only after one is committed to take a trip.  Then write a good intro letter to a few women (some agencies have a “first letter free” policy to determine if the woman is interested).  For women who are interested, I contend that 3-4 letters are enough to decide whether a woman is a good prospect to warrant a meeting.   A personal meeting is worth at least 10, perhaps 100 letters.

Is this the best approach?  It is not the most cost-effective.  Add the costs:  3-4 letters at $5 per letter is $15-20 per good prospect.  To that should be added the costs of correspondence with women who failed to become a prospect.  Thus, one could have an average cost of $25-35 per prospect. Alternatively, a man could just show up at the agency with a long list of possibilities extracted from the agency’s inventory of profiles, and the agency will gladly call each woman and endeavor to arrange a meeting (at $15 each).

I met one American man there who wrote no letters and was meeting as many women as possible.  Three different agencies were working the phones and attempting to schedule 5-6 women a day for him (at $15 per meeting).   Women work so he was not able to fill all time slots.  I have never compared that cost with the cost of a tour.

Personally I prefer writing a few letters before meeting a woman.  It gives me some idea of what to expect and it stirs some warm positive feelings in the women. 

[Stirlitz]

However, Cindy does not provide a hard copy to the woman.  And although the interpreters seem to be excellent translators, they read the letters over the phone without feeling and as if they are on amphetamine.  So all the carefully crafted words from some hopeless romantic lose some of their intended luster.  

A woman is free to come to the office to read a hard copy of a man’s letter and see his photos.  Yet, these women have such busy schedules that I saw few actually do this. 

In my experience, it is very hard to get women write responses. So, this sounds real. If you print out letters and get them to women they will pile them in the drawer and hardly ever write more than a couple of lines. This way, they have to respond.

[Jumper]

In the distant past, AJ said something about the agency perhaps initiating the first letter.  And this could be the case of the Agency playing cupid to get things rolling between new men and women clients whom the agency feels are sincere.  A few women wrote me first and in retrospect these easily could have been a canned intro letter specific to each woman.  However, subsequent letters from all women were clearly original thoughts responding to my questions and comments.  I met two of the women who wrote me first and both are sincere. 

Gator-  this reply is directed "at " you at all , so doint take it that way ok? its more just for information purposes to those interested.


maybe the above words were  a bit out of context?
 i never stated Cindy  did this, or this was even thier MO?
 and have no experience with letter writing thru Cindy,
 to have any first hand experience to draw from.

Having been a defender of that Agency ,
i think you are remembering my reply to some direct complaint-
and my reply  wasnt a denial or justification..
it's not not my place to do so in the agencies stead-
nor do i have any experience to state one way or another..
 
it was  simply a hypothetical reason why agencies in ukraine , in general,
might do "this or that".
and how i felt a vast majority operate, and thats such a tiny tip of the iseberg ..

Anyway to clear things up -
, I did not  meet my wife thru Cindy, nor write any letters ,
but the owners,  were wonderful in helping out on so many things after we had met, and became good friends who i felt had a place of honor at our wedding in Dneper.To this day years later they are still good friends and are welcome to my house anytime!

 I have been in thier office many times, and feel men, actually traveling to Ukraine, with intents of going thru a introduction  agency to meet
great prospects, should give this agency a try.
I think they are as honest as you will find, the have many sincere rW and handle logistics well.(as well as can be expected in dealing with people, and all the expectations and emotions of this process, and variuos personalities.. and i mean there ARE some *personalities* out there..lol )



As far as initial letters to get some interest being sent out,
 or anything else,, it may or may not be done.

but gasp!
I would say its common practice in ukriane,
and despite the flames, fist pounding and moral high ground taken by many on such business ethics subjects.
truth is you are in a different world, if you do NOT want to open your eyes, be realistic to common business practices  amoungst virtually ALL the businesses
and unforunantly yes- grade on the appropriate curve,
then all the carp written here,  would never open anyones eyes anyway.

 
I feel like when i defend any agency,, its just doing them harm.
and to be honest its frustrating.
because too large a percentage of the readers have no real life experience in the FSU, and without that have unrealistic perceptions from one cultural perspective to another.

Being shocked some FSU agency, or most,  might write ghost initial emails is a perfect example.
A ukranian would think- what? of course they do.. what are you thinking? why not? what harm in attempting to get a little business stirred up and hook two people up..
and " that's clever- i wish i had thought of that*

A westerner would think , those scalwags! keel haul um!

if that particular pill is too hard to swallow, guys should maybe stay home.. its not a horse pill ! more a tic tac. 



anyway it reminds of Jack Nicholson in a few good men- 
- i always want to scream in these variuos debates on biz ethics in the FSU-
"the truth? you can't HANDLE the truth!!! "

it is the matrix, if guys can't  handle the silly little things like
*email cup shuffle* , (as horrible as they might find it)
, they sure as hell dont want to take the blue pill and find out what the matrix really holds. LOL

because they never really dig far enough into any of it to get real meaningful answers..

Understanably, they just get some confirmation of something "unethical" at one place, and pass the info along,
and start using another agency..
where they may, or may not ever uncover anything , so think there perception is "true"  , but is it?

IMHO, they diffenently need to spend a year in country,, take the blue pill, then worry about such things.

if they cant do that ,
then liker the rest of us - blunder thru the best you can..
afterall  it isnt that difficult to weed out a real letter ,or real contact info.
Your new bride , if a real RW truly interested in marriage,
will afterall  expect you to be a clever man!
 and certainly smart enough to wed thru an agency shinanigans with ease.
 
I mean come on! the most common of things, the phone,
 is the easiest thing to confirm wether a girl has some interest in  you, got your letter, knows who you even are , etc..
even if the RW has poor english..
it  is not  expensive to arrange a US based third party interpreter on the line with you..


granted  my perspective is tainted by experience , (positive experience by the way)
but is  what i feel is facing simple reality of the situation in THAT culture.

Basically in my mind-
why all the hoopla when the mine field is NOT that hard to navigate. 

bottom line:
if i wasnt confident going in that i could weed thru a few silly games,
and recognize reality of how things "are" then work arounmd or thru it..
i sure as helll wouldnt tackle bringing a woman into my life from another culture..




 

[SANDRO43]

I would say its common practice in ukriane,
and despite the flames, fist pounding and moral high ground taken by many on such business ethics subjects.

Very enlightening AJ, now we know how we should regard first letters received from Ukrainian agencies. It could be argued that newsletters showing new profiles are an alternative way of catching WM's attention, albeit less financially rewarding .

truth is you are in a different world, if you do NOT want to open your eyes, be realistic to common business practices amoungst virtually ALL the businesses

Similarly to spam in many ways, IMHO. Do you also say "Oh well, common business practice" when you find your mailbox overflowing with it ?

[Gator]

AJ,

You make many excellent points.  I agree with all.

Particularly:

-  Cindy is a safe agency (my experience is from having used their services and your experience is from friendship – both valid perspectives).

-  It is necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff, and it is not difficult. 

I apologize for my failing memory taking your comments out of context (I think it was 2 years ago on another board when you posted such).  Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Gator]

Sandro,

A mailbox overflowing with letters is not the same as letters from 2 – 4 women over a couple of weeks.  The former is absurd unless one is a highly educated stud muffin.  The latter could be the case of an agency knowing its sincere women and trying to help them find a man – which is part of their mission.

A woman I met through another agency told me she knew and trusted the agency management and had given them pre-approval to send her standard intro letter to men that they deemed worthy.  She reads the responses from the men and then decides whether to correspond, writing her own material after that.

The main point - do not write letters for months and months.  Identify some women with mutual interest, and go meet them.  It is not rocket science.

[SANDRO43]

A mailbox overflowing with letters is not the same as letters from 2 – 4 women over a couple of weeks.  The former is absurd unless one is a highly educated stud muffin.  The latter could be the case of an agency knowing its sincere women and trying to help them find a man – which is part of their mission.

Gator, I get 2–4 letters every day from YEVA4U, and I KNOW that most, if not all, of them are Agency-initiated, with or without the involved FSUW's knowledge. Of course, one has to pay to read them. I also discovered that many, if not all, the FSUW I chatted with (of course not for free) were YEVA4U staff.

My point is that labelling this form of "helpful assistance" as harmless or solicitous practice may be true in a few cases, but misleading in most other. 

[BillyB]

A mailbox overflowing with letters is not the same as letters from 2 – 4 women over a couple of weeks.  The former is absurd unless one is a highly educated stud muffin. 

I must be a highly educated stud muffin on Army of Brides. They've sent me an average of 8 letters a day but I'm down to 4 a day now. The funny thing is I didn't post a profile there. Army of brides must have people putting up women's profiles at other agencies and stealing men's info off their introductory letter and getting them into their system. I estimate over 2000 women including every 18 year old girl there, has written me since my profile was put up.

[Voyageur]

BillyB,

Don't feel so special  .....a new lady at Confidential Connections writes to me every other day, even after I sent approximately 700 emails requesting deletion of any of my data over the last 2 years. I have resigned myself to understanding that the only way to end this stream of cr@p is to yield up my long-time email addy..

[Gator]

Of course, one has to pay to read them.

From the Kherson Girls webpage, “We are one of the few agencies that allow you to get and open your letters from the ladies for free. This is our way of showing our clients that there is no money motivating the agency to get the ladies to write false intro letters.”

Cindy Agency also does not charge for letters from women.  The $5 fee for a man’s letter includes response from woman.

Not only should this make a man feel comfortable about the sincerity of the letter, this saves money.  For example, some reputable multi-listing services such as A Foreign Affair and Angelica charge for letters in both directions plus an initial contact fee for each woman.    Translation can cost $10 per page.  Of course, the large listing agencies give you access to thousands of women from all over the FSU, while a local agency is limited to their pond.

[Jumper]

SONDRO-

Similarly to spam in many ways, IMHO. Do you also say "Oh well, common business practice" when you find your mailbox overflowing with it ?

umm well yes i do , and just delette it.. lol
just like all the junk mail i get in my mailbox , i just throw it away..

Seriuosly, i understand the practice can be abused.

army of brides , i'm sure every girl therre is in love with me along with CC and any number of others "back in the day" lol


shoot I can list any number of agencies that as soon as you sign up it becomes obviuos , and from their business model it nmakes it thier way of life..

and i guess thats my point,  yes its a bad practice by any agency, yes its common place for the majority.

yes a guy shiould not be real happy about it,
but he should face the reality..
pay enough attention to recognize a poor biz miodel or the fact he has a ton of canned spam..

or not vebnture into this, because that is indeed the very tip of the ice berg , if he cant handle navigating those waters,,
which yes can be a lttle tricky-
 
he isnt ready to captian a ship with any RW.
IMHO.

so while i completely understand guys being upset about how many agencies work,
i find it a bit unsettling if they get really whacked out about it..
as it shows a lack of understanding in the root of the culture .. and of how FSU biz works, particularly this biz.

heck guys, thats the EASY part.
and its fauirkly easy to navigate thru..
so in the realuity odf the situation there is no need to get too upset about it..
thats all i'm trying to say.

i guess a   "sad but true" philosphy?

[Admin]

SONDRO-

umm well yes i do , and just delette it.. lol
just like all the junk mail i get in my mailbox , i just throw it away..

Seriuosly, i understand the practice can be abused.

army of brides , i'm sure every girl therre is in love with me along with CC and any number of others "back in the day" lol


shoot I can list any number of agencies that as soon as you sign up it becomes obviuos , and from their business model it nmakes it thier way of life..

and i guess thats my point,  yes its a bad practice by any agency, yes its common place for the majority.

yes a guy shiould not be real happy about it,
but he should face the reality..
pay enough attention to recognize a poor biz miodel or the fact he has a ton of canned spam..

or not vebnture into this, because that is indeed the very tip of the ice berg , if he cant handle navigating those waters,,
which yes can be a lttle tricky-
 
he isnt ready to captian a ship with any RW.
IMHO.

so while i completely understand guys being upset about how many agencies work,
i find it a bit unsettling if they get really whacked out about it..
as it shows a lack of understanding in the root of the culture .. and of how FSU biz works, particularly this biz.

heck guys, thats the EASY part.
and its fauirkly easy to navigate thru..
so in the realuity odf the situation there is no need to get too upset about it..
thats all i'm trying to say.

i guess a   "sad but true" philosphy?

AJ,

Out of curiousity, are you able to articulate the elements of the agencies with a "bad business model" - and/or those with a good one?

It might prove interesting for others to see the things you (and others) consider to be important elements for a "good" agency versus those for a "bad" one. Might be a shorter list if you start with the "good" agency...

- Dan

[Gator]

Rather than describe operating parameters of “good agencies”,   I offer three guidelines for the correspondence phase:

1.   Do not respond to unsolicited letters if:   a) you must pay to read unsolicited letters, or b) the number of unsolicited letters is large, or c) the women are younger and more beautiful than those who write you from Freepersonals.ru or Brides.ru.

2.   Write only a few letters (at most 4) to a woman.  Any more than that is wasting time and money.  Thus, when commencing correspondence, a man should be committed to make a trip within 2-3 months.    Longer correspondence may elevate your expectations so high that you can not think objectively when you meet her. 

3.   Call the woman.  Choose an agency that will allow the woman to provide her phone number after 2-3 letters.  If the woman does not speak English very well, use an independent interpreter.  I used Elena Hendrickson in Oregon who not only provides excellent translation but has good insight about compatibility. 

If you follow the above, you will not waste money on correspondence.   Even doing the above, a GGG or GTG may have hooked you, but that is another matter entirely.