Is life for average people getting better or worse in the FSU

[SANDRO43]

So, USSR was not so bad... but so qsystem cannot survive for ever in a closed country...

IIRC, many blamed the USSR economic collapse on their many years of trying to "keep up with the Joneses" (disproportionate military spending).

[Turboguy]

Bruno,

I will agree with you that there are more people living in the street now.    I do think I see a lot less of it than I did when I first went 10 years ago. 

In 1952 my little rinky dink town in the middle of nowhere had three TV channels.   In 1996 when I made my first trip to Moscow there were three TV channels.   By that time I had 200 and now Moscow has 100 or so. 

I agree that Moscow and Russia in general has great mass transit.  As far as cars being unnecessary, the number of cars in Moscow are at least 10 times what there was at the fall of the USSR, maybe more.   If they are not necessary, then why are there so many more. 

I will agree an army uniform can be sexy.  the first time I saw ads for gals from the FSU it was accompanied by a disclaimer.    The disclaimer said "not to be turned off by the fact that Russian women did not look pretty.   The girls there don't wear make up and are trained not to smile for photos" (the bun hair do was common too).  It went on to say "that many are really very attractive despite the photos."

The footwear in those days looked like work boots.  They had mostly grey drab pants that did not fit well and long drab wool coats.   

Newspaper would have been an improvement to some of the toilet paper I saw on my first trip.

You mentioned the most untrue thing in my last post was the comment about feminism and sex.   We have had some discussions here on this and I have to think I am right.  I have heard a lot of stories from the gals.   Many times even now, sexual favors are a requirement to keep your job.   My # 1 gal now tells me she dresses very drab at work so she won't attract the attention of powerful men.   If things like that were not true, why would she tell me that.  In America even a hint that you tied a promotion or a job to sexual favors would land you in prison.  I am not going to say it never happens here but no one is going to do it on a big scale and get away with it.

[DKMM]

Since Bruno brought it up I thought I would help clarify the main difference between communism and socialism.  Communism requires state ownership of property other than personal property.   That led to a class of state managers and bureaucrats that controled economic decisions rather than the workers (true Marxism). 

That seemingly small difference spread into the largest of differences over a 70 year period and is the reason we can go over there and get attention from girls.

Sandro, you are correct, the USSR fell (I have a minor degree in Russian language and history btw) because it went broke 1st and foremost.  The GDP in the 1980s was half of what it was in the 1950s.  As for why they went broke, see my 1st paragraph.  It didn't help that collective farming does not work without adequate incentives and military spending was out of control. 

[Jet]

In 1952 my little rinky dink town in the middle of nowhere had three TV channels.   In 1996 when I made my first trip to Moscow there were three TV channels.   By that time I had 200 and now Moscow has 100 or so.

In 1986 when I left PA for FL my little rinky dink town had:
ABC
CBS
NBC
PBS
and 1 UHF station
We were 30 miles NW of the Philadelphia city limits (not exactly the middle of nowhere). Two towns over they had cable & about 60 channels, but my home town didn't.
I'm not buying it as a good example of how life is better here (hell even with the 300+ channels I now have, there are still times where there isn't anything worth watching.)

It went on to say "that many are really very attractive despite the photos."

The footwear in those days looked like work boots.  They had mostly grey drab pants that did not fit well and long drab wool coats.

*shrugs* dunno man, my wife has albums and albums of her Mom, Aunts, & Grandmothers in dresses and high heels, all looking no less attractive than Amercan ladies of their time.

You sure you're not recalling the old Wendy's Svimvear.............Eveningvear commercials?

Newspaper would have been an improvement to some of the toilet paper I saw on my first trip.

I noticed this stuff even in 2002 alongside the newer, softer, gentler to the tender western @ss, variety and I actually asked why anyone would still buy the old stuff. I was told that the difference is not really worth spending extra money on.  :noidea:

You mentioned the most untrue thing in my last post was the comment about feminism and sex.   We have had some discussions here on this and I have to think I am right.  I have heard a lot of stories from the gals.   Many times even now, sexual favors are a requirement to keep your job.   My # 1 gal now tells me she dresses very drab at work so she won't attract the attention of powerful men.   If things like that were not true, why would she tell me that.  In America even a hint that you tied a promotion or a job to sexual favors would land you in prison.  I am not going to say it never happens here but no one is going to do it on a big scale and get away with it.

From what I've heard (and it is second or third hand info so don't shoot me) this is far more prolific in Moscow than the provinces, and that there is such an influx from the smaller outlieing regions, it makes it easy for the managers in Moscow to get away with it. If the village girl doesn't comply, there'll be another along who will, shortly. If she does comply, she gets to keep the job until it's time for her next raise, then she'll be replaced. It seems the Moscuvite managers have learned how to leverage the promise of a better life much like the sex tourists do...

[Turboguy]

In 1986 when I left PA for FL my little rinky dink town had:
ABC
CBS
NBC
PBS

Wow, I thought I was in a rinky dink town.
*shrugs* dunno man, my wife has albums and albums of her Mom, Aunts, & Grandmothers in dresses and high heels, all looking no less attractive than Amercan ladies of their time.

You sure you're not recalling the old Wendy's Svimvear.............Eveningvear commercials?

No, Cherry Blossoms Catalog from about 1993 or so.  The photos matched what they said.

I noticed this stuff even in 2002 alongside the newer, softer, gentler to the tender western @ss, variety and I actually asked why anyone would still buy the old stuff. I was told that the difference is not really worth spending extra money on.  :noidea:

I guess it is thier Assss.   I will bet Preparation H could have done well there. 
From what I've heard (and it is second or third hand info so don't shoot me) this is far more prolific in Moscow than the provinces, and that there is such an influx from the smaller outlieing regions, it makes it easy for the managers in Moscow to get away with it. If the village girl doesn't comply, there'll be another along who will, shortly. If she does comply, she gets to keep the job until it's time for her next raise, then she'll be replaced. It seems the Moscuvite managers have learned how to leverage the promise of a better life much like the sex tourists do...

The first I ever heard about it was from a gal from Kharkov who now lives in NH.   Her official job was interepreter and she got to travel to some places like Italy.   Of course she was expected to do lots more than interpret for the clients and if she didn't she would be out of her job. 

[andrewfi]

TG ~ re-read your reply to me and note something very important! All of the top items you listed were about 'things'. There are and always have been ways of living that are much less focussed upon things. This is a very significantly US centric way of lokng at living standards. Not that we not all have personal possesions but you have bought into a type of life.

Now, there are others who do not live that type of life and did not in recent past. Speaking as one who is about to give away his TV due to lack of use, I see no benefit in having a huge multichannel tv system, still less in paying a significant part of my income to pay for it.
Is my standard of living impacted by the brand of toilet paper I use? Chances are my arse is cleaner for NOT using US toilet paper. There is a difference!

As to human rights, this is for most people, including most of your country men, simply a non-issue. We don't give two figs if somebody outside of family gets in trouble for breaking some law or other.

We do care about not working to hard, about hving time to spend with family and friends, to enjoy...

whoops Lena has arrived,

I go

[jb]

Andrew,

Much of what you say is true.  However, and it's a big, big, however, the yardstick in this thread is about what improvements are taking place in the FSU, not about how big my TV might be.  And I will shamelessly tell you, we watch quite a lot of TV here at our house.  Cable TV with 100 channels and rarely anything worth watching, but we like movies here and I'm a news junkie.

But getting more to the point, while human rights issues are not a big ticket here, it is HUGE there.  I have not ever had any of my relatives imprisoned for any reason, but many families in the FSU cannot say the same of their families.  My wife's own paternal grandfather spent time in a Siberian re-education facility during Stalinist times.  It was very detrimental to the fiber of family life in past times.  I believe freedom from that kind of stress has to be the most significant improvement in how things are getting better in Russia.

And I would never underestimate the materialist nature of a Russian.  I've never seen any culture more into keeping up with the Jones and plain old one upsmanship.  Every Russian I've ever met will spend his or her last ruble if they think it will impress others or make themselves look better than the neighbors.

That's just the nature of the beast.

[andrewfi]

There are extremes everywhere. But many regret the quality of life that was available to them hitherto even as they trot off to +/- to buy the new toys and pick me up in their new BMW. The game has changed so if one is to succeed one has to run in order to simply stand still.

As to the human rights thing, it realy isn't big. If it were then the regard in which Stalin is held would not be possible, the attitude toward authority would not be as it is. And, simply, as in most places, it really does not matter now, nor did it in previous times.

Anyhow, it is impossible to suggest that, in material terms at least, life for the 'avreage Russian' is not now better than it was before. But then would be true of Americans, Britons etc. Afghans, Chechens and Iraqis are among the few that might genuinely feel that their lives were worse now than 15 -20 years ago.

[jb]

As to the human rights thing, it realy isn't big.

It's strange that you can so quickly dismiss such a major issue as human rights in past times.  Maybe it isn't big from your point of view because you didn't live through it.  And it may not have been a big issue to the families of the "worker" class in a factory somewhere in central Russia building tractors on a "5 Year Ecomonic Plan".  But to the Intelligencia class, the  teachers in the University, the managers of those factories, etc., it was necessary to toe the party line.  Or else...  There were no human rights except those rights granted by the Communist Party, step out of line and you'd find yourself bunghole deep in Siberian snow.

It was something that dictated the difference between shopping at the communist party store for goods only available with hard currency, or standing in lines around the block hoping to find a pair of shoes that *almost " fit.  My wife did both as a young adult and she would be the first to lecture you on how things are getting better in the FSU.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion of the "then and now", however I think your perspective may not be the same as a Russian who lived through it.

[Michelangelo]

It's strange that you can so quickly dismiss such a major issue as human rights in past times. 

Or else...  There were no human rights except those rights granted by the Communist Party, step out of line and you'd find yourself bunghole deep in Siberian snow.

I agree, JB.  Human rights are a big issue.  Things are better in the FSU now.

But the Communist Party is alive and well in China and still up to such crap.  I was there last year and had to bite my tongue several times.

They moved (relocated) a whole city against the pleas of the people last year.  And when I got home, I learned they had gunned down 35 people who tried to protest a power plant.  But all that news was shut down by the Party and the vast majority of Chinese knew nothing about it.

Are the people in the old USSR better off today?  You bet they are.  They have freedom of speech and movement now.

BTW-Bruno was also on target with his comments about "closed societies" and how they are doomed to fail.  China knows this and it's why they opened up a few years ago with world trade.  But as knowledge of the west comes in, the communists are being pushed by her people like never before.  I hope they have a similar implosion.

[DKMM]

JB,

I was a bit worried that the ladies would be materialistic, but I think that depends on the individual.  Is there a big difference between AW and RW's in general feelings on keeping up with the Jones's?

Come to think of it, the girls did seem to be pre-occupied with what people drove and such.  To the point of obsession.  I wanted to tell them that's for insecure people but its probably a cultural difference...  I guess some will write me off for not trying to flaunt wealth but that's to my benefit in the end.

[Albert]

JB,

I was a bit worried that the ladies would be materialistic, but I think that depends on the individual.  Is there a big difference between AW and RW's in general feelings on keeping up with the Jones's?

Come to think of it, the girls did seem to be pre-occupied with what people drove and such.  To the point of obsession.  I wanted to tell them that's for insecure people but its probably a cultural difference...  I guess some will write me off for not trying to flaunt wealth but that's to my benefit in the end.

- - - - - -

There are great differences across the spectrum of gals in FSU but, on average, I would say they are a bit more materialistic than western women.  They seem a bit more concerned about designer labels, etc.  Also, they are quite naive . . . . thinking that higher prices equate to higher quality.  Pee Wee is quite at home with them.

[smartcat]

- - - - - -

There are great differences across the spectrum of gals in FSU but, on average, I would say they are a bit more materialistic than western women.  They seem a bit more concerned about designer labels, etc.  Also, they are quite naive . . . . thinking that higher prices equate to higher quality.  Pee Wee is quite at home with them.

It's quite common for women and men in Former USSR. The most interesting - the deeper to countryside - the more the materialism is shown up. Also, at my point of view - the more down to south, the more attention to such things-to-show-up-envy-me.

The main idea of such behaviour is to show up you are "wealthy" and can afford something expensive. Or at least to pretend. Trying hard to show it with labels is very common. The owner of $400 belt might have an empty fridge [produced itself in 1960s] but nobody sees it. And all other people see the belt...  Well. You can concern it as "psychotherapy-to-be-self-confindent". Some can be cured when moved abroad, some not.

[andrewfi]

jb ~ before starting your rant you obviously neglected to read what I had written. Apart from agreeing with what I wrote I can see no reason for your words. I mean, I am hapy when folk agree with me, but it seems pointless when they do so in the guise of taking a contrary view.

Smartcat ~ Your point is well made. I have often thought that people act as you suggest because they do what they can with what they have. For example, it is relatively easy to afford a fairly expensive pair of boots or sunglasses and they help somebody to create an image which may well be false, but which pleases the owner. Over the course of years and in several countries of the FSU I have seen the same process. Here, at the moment, as the country becomes more wealthy, we have guys buying and driving around in quite expensive cars, but going home to their Kruschev box in the suburbs. A few years ago, the same guys were buying Hugo Boss suits and taking the bus home. Now, quite a few are buying homes. It is a part of the process of enrichment.
People do not see the Minck fridge, they do see the Burberry purse. The purse, even if genuine, costs less than a decent fridge freezer. Easy choice - after all the fridge still works - right?
Also, and something guys from the US often forget, is that if one lives in a cramped and crowded apartment then going out to clubs and cafes is escape. The things that people wear and carry become badges of status and most of us are creatures of status, even if we don't think about it. By reaching for the stars we can hope to grasp the moon.

[DKMM]

Status?  That's for insecure people.  I definitely saw a lot of wannabes on my trip to the Motherland.

I like Smartcat's theory.  That type of thing happens in the US too of course.  I notice it the most with immigrants but also with some people that grew up poor.  I guess because compared to where they came from they are rich.  Especially with the Ukrainians I know, but I hate to generalize like that.

Money ain't a thang...

[PeeWee]

Is anyone suggesting that Americans are better off or more or less content than those folks living in the FSU? In the words of the Rev. Jessy Jackson "I think not."

from "Affluenza: The All-Consuming Epidemic" by John De Graff, David Wann and Thomas H. Naylor; Berrett-Koehler Publishers, San Francisco, 2003.


"One thing most apparent is that in spite of all the goodies Americans possess, happiness and contentment still elude them. Otherwise, they would not be exerting themselves beyond endurable limits. In the light of the phenomenal prosperity of America, this statement might seem absurd. As the authors explain, it is true that since the Second World War, productivity in the United States has more than doubled, leading to a doubling of consumption as well. Yet, it is equally true that countries that have the most prosperity also have the most stress. Stress can come from plain greed masquerading as the `noble' desire for a higher standard of living. It could be the result of being overworked and constantly pressed for time. Americans suffer from all these and much more. As the Harvard economist Juliet Schor has argued, full-time American workers now toil 160 hours - one full month - more on average than they did in 1969. According to another study, American couples now find just 12 minutes a day to converse with each other. Thus, the notion that prosperity leads to leisure has been debunked. On the contrary, it is clear that economic growth inevitably leads to scarcity of time.

Most Americans now have five or more credit cards, for a nation-wide total of well over a billion cards. The average American household carried $7,564 in credit card debt during 2000. Even college students carry an average debt of $2,500. Credit card debts tripled in the 1990s, resulting in a steep escalation of personal bankruptcies. In 1980, as many as 313,000 people declared bankruptcy. Now, each year more than a million people file for bankruptcy, a figure greater than the number of people who graduate from college annually.

Those who manage to dodge bankruptcy are not better off either. Six million Americans are close to bankruptcy. Sixty per cent of families have so little financial reserves that they can sustain their lifestyles for about a month if they lose their jobs. Those that are slightly wealthier can manage for just about three and a half months. Thus, the singular achievement of capitalist development in America has been the near-total obliteration of the concept of thrift. It is no surprise, therefore, that currently America's national saving rate is around zero and in some months falls below that line. In contrast, workers in China, India and Pakistan save a quarter of their incomes."

[smartcat]

I like Smartcat's theory.  That type of thing happens in the US too of course.  I notice it the most with immigrants but also with some people that grew up poor.  I guess because compared to where they came from they are rich.  Especially with the Ukrainians I know, but I hate to generalize like that.

Heh, being half Ukrainian half Russian (although Russian half has Ukrainian roots too), I agree with you, DKMM. I understand you want to be PC, may I not be, talking about Ukrainians? 

I used to live in northern Russia in my childhood and then in Ukraine. Also travelled a lot all my life. At my point of view in the South of Former USSR people are more preoccupied "to look wealthy and impressive" for society. You can see it in Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan for instance. Fur coats, gold is a traditional part of respectable image many pay a lot of attention. Ukraine is also different from northern Russia at my observations- more tendency "to show up".

By the way. Two weeks ago heard the story from an Ukrainian man. He was talking about American who was looking to invest 800 - 900 K in the center Kiev apartment. They met in summer. The Ukrainian  shared his horror (inviting me to be much suprised, he-he ) - "can you imagine that American guy was dressed in old sandals and T-shirt?!!! Oh! Unbelievable!!!"

Well, in the society where everybody tries to look "wealthier", the wealthy guy who does not try looks really extra-terrestrial...

[DKMM]

Peewee, thanks for the introduction to leftist thinking.  You've been to Russia and you don't think we are better off?   

Yes Smartcat I was trying to stay PC.  I mentioned Ukrainians meaning the ones that live in my city.  I'm actually basing it on a small subset I've encountered here, and some i've even befriended.  Its strange because yeah they wear the gold and flaunt their used cars while living in our version of a ghetto.  Other immigrants do it too, (think spinners and gold chains) but I guess you can find that in any slice of society here.

The only time its important to look wealthy is perhaps on certain business situations.  I would definitely NOT try to look that way in Ukraine, that could only invite trouble. I don't know about sandals and a T-shirt but who wants to attract that kind of attention?