Dodging the destitute

[LatinSwede]

This is something I've encountered in Ukraine and other countries.  I'm walking down the street minding my own buissness.  Then suddenly some kid is walking right next to you begging for money.  He/she will give you they "help I must eat story".  I keep saying no and the kid is still following me.  I walked right into a cafe/bar to ditch him.  They won't let him in there.  It's not something I'm proud of at all.  Infact I felt kind of guilty.  With my Latin American background, begging kids are more of threat than objects of pity.  In Columbia, and parts of Panama city, little kids will stab you. Last May during Euro Fest, little kids were singing with a McDonalds bag infront of them.

Sometimes I'd go in tha park and old men sitting on benches would be requesting Vodka money.  Old women would stick their hand out as I walked by.  A couple instances I had Kopeks in my front pocket, so I'd hand them out.  It's very depressing to see.  Once a middle aged woman followed me across the the street with a cup in her hand. I didn't want to be rude, but I'm not in Odessa for Charity work.  Stateside, I'm meaner, because of the crackheads. It's like can't even go the the gas station wihtout some abomination begging from me.

[Preston]

I have had the same thing happen to me in Dnepropetrovsk Ukraine a couple years ago! My friend and I were siting in the park there having a fine Ukrainian Beer and a child came up asking for money a little dark skin girl! It took my friend 4 times to tell her to go away! I felt kinda sorry for her and wanted to give some of my kopeks out of my pocket but my friend informed me if I did that then she wouldn't leave us alone so I didn't! But yeah there is timeswhen I am walking down the street and older people are asking for money or money for Vodka! I was down in Yalta for 2 weeks and was down on the beach walking through all the markets and had a beer in my hand and had a middle aged guy following me the whole way and as soon as I sat my beer down he took it! I was suprised of course it was empty! My wife told me they want it for money when they turn it in for rec. At one time when I was in Sevastopol I was down at the black sea and had a middle aged women asking us for money for Vodka! Anyways I can relate

Preston

[Shadow]

I had a few people come up to me in Kiev. Just gave them a stern look and a shake of the head, further ignoring them. It did the trick all the time, looking them straight in the eye and shake my head.

This of course from a guy who made the room guards in the New York Metropolitan museum straighten their uniform by giving them a straight look

[LatinSwede]

In Panama we call those people "borachos".  Now that I'm experienced in Ukraine, I just tell them in Russian "don't follow me!  I'm not Rich!". 

Yesterday I did something very rude at the gas station.  There's this guy I always see walking up and down the main boulevard begging in service station parking lots.  Let's just say he's the "neighborhood crackhead",  and a real pest.  While I'm pumping gas, that fool was shouting "Yo chief!  Got 50 cent!".  So I said "There's your 50 cents right there" and gave him the finger.  Good for him he kept his distance, because my mace was ready.

[Vaughn]

I've been approached for a handout in the FSU only once, the moment I disembarked the train in my wife's hometown of Yoshkar-Ola. We were greeted by a small crowd - friends, family and of course a cabbie or two, when I notice these two little kids standing beside me, looking at me with pleading eyes, little hands outstretched. It was hard to divide my attention as I was meeting the sister and cousins for the first time. These kids were about 4 and 7, filthy, with blackened fingernails, and their appearance tugged at my heartstrings. A cabbie shooed them away. Later that week, my stepdaughter told me those two kids live on the streets - in winter they take shelter in the basement below an apartment building.

Like LatinSwede, I've grown callous to the parade of beggars everywhere I've lived stateside: New York, Oregon, Houston, Daytona and here. A leather-faced 60 year old woman works a certain corner locally - she belongs to a team of three - makes fairly good "pity income" - I've witnessed the trio meet at day's end, count the take, and drive off in a late model Buick.

When an able-bodied man hits me for change or "a hot meal" as one guy puts it regularly, I say "Sure. Right after I've paid my bills and fed my wife and three children."

[Jet]

I've experienced this in Russia as well. One day walking along Bolshaya Pokrovskaya, the pack of gypsies came up to beg money. Liliya chased them off quickly with gruff disgust. Later that day we were returning from the strelka promenade and they approached us again, this time I took care of them by shouting loudly in english and flailing my arms around like a friggin' nut (scared the sh!t out of 'em ). They were tripping each other trying to get away from us!

BUT

One of the most endearing memories I have of all my time in Russia happened less than an hour later when Lil wanted to stop off at a small produkty shop before returning home. There was a short elderly woman (looked like 100yrs old but probably not) who was quietly trying to maintain some small shed of dignity while begging with a small tin cup in an alley next to the shop. When my wife was pretty sure nobody (including me) was looking, she reached into her wallet and gave the woman all the small change she had. They smiled at each other and went their seperate ways without a word spoken. That's the kind of charachter insight you just can't get through letters and phone calls .

[Admin]

This has been an interesting topic - for me, at least.

For anyone who has travelled much, poverty witnessed abroad is ubiquitious and at levels most of us would have difficulty imagining.

I recall seeing a shanty town on the outskirts of Hermosillo, in central Mexico. My wife (at that time) and I were on a driving trip - and on our return, we purchased as much local produce and fruit as we could fit into the back seat of the car I was driving. We then stopped at the shanty town and gave it all away. It was gone in a matter of minutes, and left me with a sense of hopelessness in how little impact we had. When it was all gone, and we were surrounded by people clamoring for something, I started giving them whatever money I had in my pocket. I left with a very hollow feeling for those I had been unable to help - and how little the help I offered was to those who had receiving something.

But nothing prepared me for the abject poverty that is widespread in India. Even on the streets in New Delhi, the country's capital, there are homeless and destitute everywhere. I recall working near downtown (Connaught Circus) and staying at a hotel within walking distance. The hotel was a US-brand 5-star hotel, and to walk to work, we traversed 2 or 3 city blocks. In that short walk, on a daily basis, we would be approached by this handsome, bright-eyed, smiling little naked boy who was maybe 3 years old. He always had his hand out - and he rarely returned to his parents with anything to give them - but that never stopped him from coming over to us the next day, and it never diminished that bright smile and sparkling eyes. It was heart-rending.

But the worst was on the streets around Conaught Circus - to hear the wailing of an infant, and to approach the sound to discover a woman with her infant child, only weeks or months old, with an obvious deformity laying on a blanket beside her. People move VERY quickly on the streets of central Delhi, and it is amazing how they manage not to step on the child and mother - but they avoid them in spite of the pace. I later learned it is a common practice for people to purposely disfigure their infant children - to make them a more pitiable sight - to attract more charity from passers-by.

Maybe it is because of these earlier experiences, but I have never found the FSU to be particularly poverty-stricken. Yes, the economic conditions are poor and for some, there is a sense of hopelessness - some buildings are seriously dilapidated - and there is a great need for infusion of some FDI (presumably, immediately following the infusion of more ethical, less corrupt government(s)). Still, on an individual level, the poverty in the FSU is nothing like I have seen elsewhere.

FWIW

- Dan

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"] Having traveled in far to many third world countries, poverty is everywhere in  the world, sometimes it is created by natural forces and sometimes by man  none-the-less it is the innocent who suffer because of it and there is little  to nothing that can be done about it. Dan's story is an excellent example, the  poor will take until there is nothing left to give, sure we feel sorry for them  because of what we have and they need but we can give until there is nothing  left and nothing will change. Maybe you will feel better about yourself, less  guilty for what you have and they (the poor) do not have for giving something,  but it will not change a thing, after they spend or consume what you have given  them they will be right back to where they were before so what has changed?  Nothing.  [/size][/color] [color="blue"][size="4"]

 Maybe this sounds cold hearted but  we live in a heartless dog eat dog world which will destroy you if you let it,  the best a person can do is to take care of their family and themselves because  everyone else will bleed you dry if you let them. [/size][/color] [color="blue"] [/color] [color="#0000ff"][size="4"][color="blue"]

  We have tried for a number of years  now by supporting an orphanage in[/color][color="blue"] Ruzayevka,[/color][color="blue"] a small city 800 kilometers east of  Moscow, we even have my wife's sister routinely visit the facility to ensure the  funds are being spent properly and from all accounts they are. The  problem is the orphanages success, the population within the facility grew and  so did the requirements for more and more support, soon the facilities were too  small and there was not enough beds, equipment and staff. It became apparent  that limits had to be set, babies would have to be turned away, some would  survive and other's well most likely they would die, I am sorry for that but  that is the real world and decisions about this have to be made. We set forth  extremely strict guide lines as to how many would be allowed in the facility and  for how long, at what age they would be accepted and in what condition (health,  deformities and such). So far this approach has worked and the population within  the facility has stabilized, the conditions have improved and the costs have  been kept under control. Unlike some facilities (like the one supported by Kevin  Hayes) we do not allow floaters, kids who come and go, if they want to go it is  a one way trip, again a tough but necessary decision.[/color] [/size][/color]

[LatinSwede]

In Africa, I had to be extra rude at times.  It was like I couldn't even walk a half block without somebody saying "boss, Boss!" selling tacky souveneirs, begging.  This was in Zimbabwe 1999, beofre the country went to hell.  Not safe to go back to anymore.

[calcowboy1]

I can definately relate to the stories.

Although, after 3 trips to Russia, I really have not be approached that much by the beggars.  Only once in Moscow did 2 kids come up to me, but I gave them nothing.  They looked quite well fed, and from the looks of their clothes, they were doing quite well for themselves.

I know this will sound crazy, however, what pulled at my heart strings were the stray dogs.  Every night, my wife and I would take her dog for a walk to the park and the stray dogs would be hanging about.  My wife told me the story of this one dog.  She was a 3 month old puppy in the summer time, and my wife would talk with her owner (a 21 year old girl).  Then all of a sudden she did not see the owner and the dog once autumn came.  Then the dog showed up one day in November (now about 6 months old), and looked very thin.  The story was told to my wife that the girl no longer had time for the dog, she was to busy partying so she threw it outside.  Since then it was living in the park.  When I saw this dog, it tore me up.  It would follow us back to her apartment every day.  One day, it was a little cold and raining, so we went to the local grocery store and bought the little girl the biggest piece of sausage we could find.  At least she would eat well that day.  She was such a gentle dog, I couldn't imagine anyone throwing her out, it still makes me shake my head and wonder.

Calcowboy

[Bruce]

St. Petersburg was the worst place for me.  About the first word I learned was "otvallee" any time a bunch of gypsey kids approached me.  Saying that to them along with moving faster, making sure I knew where my wallet and passport  were and letting them go on to the next victim. 

[LatinSwede]

I saw a lot o stray dogs in Ukraine.  We were at the  war memorial park, having a picnic.  While we were sitting and eating, a pack of sickly dogs were surrounding us.  It was indeed a sad site.  Beside the dogs, the park was nice.  I was shocked to see kids and young adults climbing on the vinatage soviet military vehicles.  You can't do that here.  There's even a big sumbarine, with guys walking on top.

In Odessa walking home, I passed a kid around at night.  He was following with his hand out.  I asked him 'gdye mama y papa vash?'.   he told me they were home.  That's low.  Any decent parent wouldn't have his kid outside at 9pm.

 

[Kuna]

A few years ago when I was still smoking I stopped at a kiosk on a busy street in Sydney to buy a packet of cigarettes.  As I turned around there was a homeless guy there and he asked for a smoke.

I don't know why but there was something different about him.  He looked like he was recently "one of us" and yet you could tell his spirit was broken. 

Before I gave him the smoke we had a little chat.  He asked if I was visiting Sydney, I said "Yeah, how'd you know".  He said it was the "Optimistic look in your face".  (I've noticed the reverse with some people in Sydney... maybe just a big city thing).

We chatted about his wife. She was sitting in the park and he was taking the p!$$ ouot of her because she was wearing white jeans and he said she always complained because her jeans got dirty really quickly.  He was a crack up!  He said, "Damn it, we're homeless, why wear white jeans if you don't want to get them dirty".

He said they'd just been up north and just got back to Sydney.  They went up there because his father-in-law was dying.  We talked about his living arrangements and he admitted that sometimes they stayed in a hostel if they could afford it.  They were currently trying to save some money so they could go down south fruit picking so his big focus at the moment was getting his wife to stop wasting money on hostel accommodation.  "The streets are safe as long as we stick together.

I asked him "why he was on the streets and not digging his way out of his situation" and he said, "Man, I'm just a bum.  I'm a drunk and I feel normal when I hang out with all the other drunks. We look after eachother".

I don't know, it was a really strange conversation that came from nowhere.

Anyway, I gave him a cigarette and then I immediately heard a cheer from a bunch of other homeless guys sitting in the park.  He looked a bit sheepish so I asked him why they cheered.  He said they were just happy because he would share the cigarette with them.

WHAT?  "How many people are you going to share that smoke with?"  He did some mental counting and said "Six."

Hmmm...  I was having a good day and he was a small break in reality for me so I dug out another 5 smokes and gave them to him.  He thanked me and said he would give me some money, but... I interrupted and said "You're saving for a bus fare to go fruit picking."

Anyway, my little glimpse into someone elses reality finished and I went off on my way.  I was happy I'd had a little chat with him.

He just chuckled a bit...

Anyway...  (Story finishing soon)...

A couple of days later I'd just taken a client to lunch and we were walking back to his office when I hear someone yelling my name from across the stress (4 lanes of really heavy traffic). 

"KUNA,  KUNAAAAAA"

I looked over and it was him (named Ian).  I waved and he just yelled back "have a good day mate, we'll have to catch up again soon".

I kinda waved again and my client pulled a really strange face and all I could get out of my mouth was... "Ah, an old mate"... and ke[t walking.

 

Anyway...  I don't endorse giving money to beggers...  I feel empathy for homeless people because it's often associated with alcohol and drug addiction, or mental illness... and I DO realise that some of them make a living out of it (Like I've seen in the Philippines).

To this day when I'm in Sydney I still see him from time to time.  He always says hello, has never asked for another cigarette and even offeed me one once (He'd had it in his pcoket and it was all tristed and damaged so NO, I didn't accept!)

I can't imagine ever having another exchange like that but it's a "meeting" I'll never forget.

Ummm... sorry, that was nothng to do with RW or International Dating but I saw this thread on the board and it brought back some memories...   

Kuna

[Mir]

It is obvious to assume that the number of beggars has a direct relationship to the economy of the country.However in my recent travels I have noticed that there are a lot more beggars on the streets of Poland then Ukraine despite the fact the Poland is now a member of EU and economically doing much better!

[ScottinCrimea]

In all my time in Simferopol I think I have only been approached once asking for money, and that was by a kid maybe five years old when I was with another America.  The only beggars I see on the street are old women trying to supplement their pitifully low pensions and several with disabilities. One regularly sits in his wheelchair near the corner of Kirova and Karl Marx.  They seem to have their territories staked out.  There is a group of homeless druks that hang out around the garbage bins near our apartment, but they never approach us or give us cause for concern.  My only bad experience wass when I was with my wife at the Kharkov train station and a man was very pushy asking for money for vodka.  We finally had to threaten to call the police.  I've seen a much worse problem on the streets of LA, San Francisco and New York than here.  It can be very sad sometimes to see how some people live here, but compared to the stick and mud huts I saw in Ecuador, they have it made here.  Just a short couple of blocks off the main drag in Tijuana and you will see much worse.
     As far as stray dogs in Ukraine, I see very few, and those that I do see seem to be well fed.  I see none of the mangy skeletal animals I saw in many other countries.  I find dog owners here tend to take better care of their animals in general than the average owner in the states. OUr dog is absolutely spoiled rotten.  He eats more meat than I do, and after his regular walks he gets carried into our jacuzzi and has his paws washed.  Right now while I'm gone he is sleeping in my place next to my wife, but you can bet that's gonna change when I get home!  An interesting side note is that afte rmy wife bought him for me last Christmas, she asked the lady she bought him from just what type of Cocker Spaniel he was because he didn't seem to fit any standard description.  She told us that the father is an American cocker and the mother is a Russian cocker, so it seems he's a perfect fit for us and have some idea of what our son would be like.  LOL

[Mir]

Scott

It looks like the council has run a major drive against stray dogs.
In the summer of 2005 I spent 2 weeks in Sevastopol and certainly there were many stray dogs in the streets and they were in poor condition.

[ScottinCrimea]

That may be the case, Mir.  Just out of curiousity I'll ask my wife if there was a change in this before I arrived, though I it would have had to have been before my first visit nearly three years ago.  I've only been to Sevastopol a couple of times, can't recall seeing anything unusual there.

[ScottinCrimea]

Okay guys, I asked my wife today why there weren't stray dogs running around Simferopol and she told me it was because the Tatars enjoy a good canine shashlik or kalbasa.  She says that's why peope here keep a close eye on their dogs what they are outside.  She says there used to be some city animal control, but now the Tatars provide this service.
     Thinking back, this explains now why my father told me to give a piece of any suspect meat to a dog.  If he eats it, it's okay.  If not, it's probably fido minion.

[Mir]

Scott

I really doubt what your wife has told you.
To my knowledge the Tartars are mostly Muslim and will not eat dog meat.

And yes there were plenty of stray dogs in Crimea last year.This topic was discused on the TIU forum where Mark S was the one remarking on the abundance of stray dogs and open holes in Ukraine (to refresh your memory Mark was an American married to a Ukrainian and living in Sevastopol at that time.I have no idea where he is living now)

[ScottinCrimea]

Mir,
     How many times have you been to Crimea?  What cities?  For how long? Just curious.  Maybe Sevastopol is the exception.  I don't know for sure because I've only been there a couple of times and I was more focused on seeing the sights than checking out the dog situation.  I'm sure, though, if there had been significant numbers of stray dogs I would have noticed it.  As far as Mark S, when he first moved to Sevastopol he couldn't do enough to sing the praises of his wonderful life, the beauties of Ukraine and the joys of living there.  By the end of his stay, he had nothing good to say about anything or anyone.  It was a really sad transformation to watch, and quite the opposite of my experience.  The longer I stay in Ukraine the better it gets.  My US visit ends and I'll be back home in a couple of weeks.  I'll make it a project for the good of the forum to do a stray dog count.
     For future reference, Tartar is a sauce.  The people are Tatars.

[Mir]

Scott

I have only been in Crimea for 15 days and most of the time was spent in Sevastopol.I did drive through your city from and back to the airport.Also explored the route to Yalta.
So obviously I cannot compete with your superior local knowledge.
As regards Mark I would agree but it also shows that if one is happy somewhere or with someone then the minor flaws of that place/person become invisible but if one is unhappy then they tend to notice the all the flaws and blemishes etc.
For the record, I loved Crimea and would recommend it for a holiday (stray dogs or not).
And one more thing, living somewhere does not always translate into having the correct knowledge. I mean I live in North-East England and there are on Taters here and you live in place where they are in some force, you perhaps interact with them and even enjoy an occasional canine shashlik (though they don’t eat dog)! but still you don’t know that they are/can be called Tartars in English and certainly called Tartarri in several oriental languages (Persian etc.)-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatar#Name
 

[ScottinCrimea]

Sevastopol is a great city and I would love to spend more time there.  There really is lots to see there.  Not so much to see here in Simferopol, but I like it.  You need to get back and look around Crimea more.  There's a lot of great places to see.
     I think you are right about Mark.  My guess is that over time the new place that he is living will take on the same ugliness for him that Sevastopol and before that San Jose did.  It's too bad, but I do wish him well wherever he finds happiness.
     Okay, I pinned my wife down today on the Tatar/dog thing and she had to admit that she doesn't know for sure that they eat dogs, and you are right, the Muslim faith forbids this.  She says it just became a general assumption because after they returned to Crimea there were a lot fewer stray dogs around.  We'll just leave it at that.
    In regards to their proper name, I'll paste a quote from the Wikipedia link that you gave.  I don't know about referring to them as "Tartars" in other languages such as Persian because I didnt' see any references to this.  Maybe you can provide one.  Anyway, here's the quote:

Tatars - Tatarlar or Татарлар. In modern English only Tatar is used to refer to Eurasian Tatars; Tartar has offensive connotations as a confusion with the Tartarus of Greek mythology, due in part to the popular association of the supposed bloodthirsty ferocity of the Mongol tribes with the Greek sub-underworld. In Europe the term Tartar is generally only used in the historical context for Mongolian people who appeared in the 13th century (the Mongol invasion) and assimilated into the local population later.

[Vaughn]

You guys aroused my curiosity - as my wife and stepdaughter are
descended from Russian Tatars. They assert that, at least in their extended family, the thought of eating Rover is repulsive. Now, I have had conversations with my brother-in-law and my wife's cousin's husband (both in their late 30's) and they'll admit that some of the older babushki will serve up a jerky derived from horse.
Personally, I've never had the pleasure, and never plan to.

On my last visit to Mari-El, I noticed an increased presence of panhandlers around the market area - they were darker skinned gypsies who will sit on a small woven blanket right on the sidewalk,
and have their young'uns, hands outstretched, appealling to
your pity. The militsia run them off, and they set up shop again just a block away. 

[Mir]

Scott

I do intend to visit Crimea again. Just looking to find the time and travel companion

As for Tatars.Well right now I don't have written reference in Persian only info from a Persian speaker.So lets agree that:While they can be called Tatars or Tartars,it is preferable to call them Tatars.

Vaughan

It is possible that they eat horse meat although this would be under exceptional circumstances.

[SANDRO43]

Though we not related to Tartars/Tatars, horse meat is available at certain Italian butchers, too. Traditionally, it is considered ideal for convalescents : I remember I was given some to eat as a kid while recovering from some sickness, and did not much like it (too "sweet", compared to beef).