Need advice on checking in to a hotel in Russia without 'propiska'

[MandM]

I have a question for married guys. Have your wives ever experienced problems when staying in hotels in Russia after they have already immigrated abroad?  

About 4 years ago my mum and I had to spend one night in Moscow, but we couldn't get into any normal hotel because I was no longer Russian resident and didn't have 'propiska' (stamp in passport with residential address in Russia). I've had to get it removed before moving to England to obtain my fiance visa.  Though my mum had it, they wouldnt' check us in. We ended up staying in some s*** hole that didn't require propiska, and it was quite traumatic experience: it was full of hookers, Vietnamese sale people, people who had 'Murderer' written all over their foreheads, and other people who looked like they belonged to jail. Bed linen was dirty and we ended up sleeping on the top of the beds with our clothes on. It was pretty scary too. Reminded me of brothel (though I haven't been to one!)

Mark and I are planning to visit my family this summer, and want to spend couple of days in St Petersburg. Does anyone know if I am going to experience the same kind of problems there? I have no idea if its different in different cities, or maybe they changed the rules since then? What can I do if I 'chugoy sredi svoih i svoy sredi chugih?' Not yet British but already not Russian?

[BC]

Why did you have propiska removed? Never had a problem here or there and my wife kept her propiska in RU at her families residence.

[Elen]

Can't you get temporary "propiska" at your mom's resident? Though such BOMGi:D like you now are not out of law. ( though better to call to hotel and ask them)

[MandM]

BC, I was told by British Embassy that it was obligatory. May be different rules in Italy?

Elen, I got temporary propiska couple of years ago when I needed to change my passport. It's just way too much trouble to go through for two nights in a hotel!

Probably my best bet is to phone up hotels before travelling. Otherwise Mark will be spending night in a nice hotel and I'll be in my sleeping bag outside the building. Gosh, I've never thought of that before, I am actually a BOMG!

[BC]

[user=300]M&M[/user] wrote:

BC, I was told by British Embassy that it was obligatory. May be different rules in Italy?

Guess it is different.. was not requested or even mentioned by the IT Embassy. I wonder what the rationale would be for requiring it..

[Bruno]

[user=300]M&M[/user] wrote:

Elen, I got temporary propiska couple of years ago when I needed to change my passport. It's just way too much trouble to go through for two nights in a hotel!

My ex-wife have know these problem in the past when she was need change her russian international passport... but it was not a real problem since she was with a Belgium passport since the 3th year married with me... and she was gaming from one to other passport...

How much time stay in UK are needed for receive the UK nationality ? In Belgium, it is 3 year + 1 year procedure... result of this : for Belgium administration you are Belgium but for russian, you have the two nationality... very easy for trip...

In any case, you man can hire the bedroom... and nothing prohibith yourself to sleep in the same bedroom that him... because of the hiring of bedroom, he can receive a voucher for a tourist visa... and yourself, you can ask to some family in Russia for make a personal invitation and so, you can receive a personal visa...

And at least, some $ to the clerk working at hotel can help to resolve several solution... yourself, you can command a voucher via internet from several hotel... once at place, for some supplement in cash, they register you...

You are russian and you don't know that all is possible in Russia with some little money... you surprise me...

 

[jb]

Get in contact with one of the marriage agencies who office in St. Pete.  They will rent you a nice flat by the day, stay away from hotels completely.  There used to be a guy who posted on the RWG who had flats in St. Pete.  I think his name was Phil.

[Leslie]

Elle,

I won't go into why you don't have propiska.  We both know that the rules are changing constantly.  Who knows what the rules are at a given time?  Are they enforced?  There is a lot of talk about whether Ukrainians should have PMZ visa.  This is literally "permission to emigrate"  The paper chase to get this visa can take 6 months!  Canadian wife's must have it, as the spouse visa will not be issued unless the PMZ visa is in the international passport.  Brits and Americans do not bother as our governments do not require this visa.  However if an official gets "sh*t faced" with you they can demand it. :X

Of course what they really want is money....

The advice on hotels that Bruno gave you is spot on.  Here is a link to a reliable travel agency that does short term rental apartments in St. Pete -

http://www.oksanas.net

You won't have any trouble with propiska or registering your partners visa with these new Russians.  All they want is your money

 

[MandM]

Bruno,

I know how things done in Russia! I've managed to get seats on the planes that were fully booked and so on. But in that case to get a room was impossible (when I gave the reception lady my passport, it was stuffed with bank-notes) But she is either on a very big wage, or the rules are strict.

JB,

Thanks for your advice. I think I owe you an apology, I was wrong about you. And it was a cheap shot about Etna. I was pissed off with your pal and took it our on you. I apologize for that.

Leslie,

Thanks a lot for the link. Has Natasha had to remove her propiska? I am supposed to be registered with Russian Consulate in London, and I don't think you can register if you still have propiska. I don't know why you're supposed to register with them anyway. They probably just want some money too. My passport expires this year and it is only going to take them 4 months and cost me 200 pounds to obtain a new one!

[Bruno]

[user=300]M&M[/user] wrote:

Bruno,

I know how things done in Russia! I've managed to get seats on the planes that were fully booked and so on. But in that case to get a room was impossible (when I gave the reception lady my passport, it was stuffed with bank-notes) But she is either on a very big wage, or the rules are strict.

Yep, in the little city, it was not a problem for me... but around 2 year ago, when i have visit St Peterburg, i have choice the security and book a hotel via internet... it was needed for obtain a visa ( voucher ) since i was separated from my russian wife and i cannot receive anymore a invitation from her family...

 

[Leslie]

Elle,

I will try to answer your questions:-

"Has Natasha had to remove her propiska? I am supposed to be registered with Russian Consulate in London, and I don't think you can register if you still have propiska."
[/i]

The key event here is getting a UK indefinite leave to remain visa stamp in your passport.
[/b]
I presume you have this visa in your current passport.  This changes your legal status.  You are now a UK permanent resident. (This is the same as an unconditional green card for USA).  Legally you should register with the Russian consulate as a Russian permanently resident in UK  and you are correct you cannot have "propiska" in Russia.

Natasha still has "propiska" at her family flat registered in her internal (blue) passport.  These details are not listed in her International (red) passport.  Natasha will become UK permanent resident in January 2006.  She will then need to obtain the infamous PMZ visa before she can register with the Ukraine consulate in Notting Hill.  Part of the paper chase to get this visa is giving up your "propiska" You also need certificates from the tax office that you owe no money and so on and on. 

Our current view is we won't do this.  As Natasha can apply for citizenship in January 2007  and on current processing times will have a UK passport by September 2007.

This does make travel back to Ukraine "dodgy" during this period.  

I have some bad news for you if you need to get a new Russian International passport.  You will need to pay to have the ILR stamp transferred to your new passport.  

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/applying/application_form.html

When you open this page scroll down to form NTL.  It is an acrobat form and which you can download, save and print. The fee is £160 for postal applications (takes around 6-8 weeks) or £500 express (same day) processing at the HMND office in Croyden. 

I posted a complaint thread on this board when these charges were imposed.  Real rip off in my opinion! If you want to check the veracity of what I have said you can contact

http://www.iasuk.org/ 

I think they will answer simple specific e-mail enquiries free of charge.  Hope this helps.

[Turboguy]

Can I ask a dumb question.  What the heck is a propiska?   I am getting the general gist of it, but I might as well admit I am dumb and ask.

[jb]

What the heck is a propiska?

Not a dumb question at all.

It's hard to explain because we have nothing similar.  Basically it is a Russian law which says a person has the right to live somewhere, that place where he or she is registered. Think of it as the Russian answer to housing for the homeless.  If you are registered to an address, even if that house or flat belonged to another relative, the place cannot be sold or you be put out on the street.  You have the right to live there until you decide you want to live somewhere else and you change the registration.

For example, my mom-in-law lives in my wife's flat, she has "propiska" (the rights to that flat, she's a registered resident at that address), even though my wife owns the flat, she can not be put out, nor can my wife sell the flat as long as mom is alive.  Children also have "propiska" to their parents home until the marry and get a place of their own, if they ever do.

I've asked my wife about this problem of renting a hotel room if you are not a Russian resident and she's at a loss to understand why not.  According to her, propiska should have nothing to do with renting a room in Saint Petersburg, Moscow, or any other city as long as your passports are valid.  I do know internal passports are changed periodically and the photo must be age approprate.  That means the photograph must look like what you look like.  So you get one passport at age 14 and must change it when you mature to age 20, and look like a grown up. You will keep that one until you approach middle age (age 45,) and don't look like the old photo any more, you have to get another passport.  And so on in these age driven increments.  In this case I'm referring to internal passports only. International passports expire every 5 years

So,, if M&M got a new passport at age 20, and has not yet reached 45, that passport should still be valid and the old "propiska" stamp should still be in there unless it was somehow excised by the Brits.  We don't understand this problem of renting hotel rooms very well. Propiska should have nothing to do with the problem, there must be something else we don't know about.


 

[Elen]

I know only one for sure in old Soviet times you could not rent a hotel room in your own city ( as you already had place where to spend a night in according to "propiska" in your passport:D Holtels were only for those who had not any other place to stay in this city)

 Also it was just impossible to had not ANY propiska. Such people were called BOMG ( A persone without permanent residence. 99% of such persons in Soviet times were former prisoners who lost their "propiska" because of very long period (more than 10 years) of punishment.) Now after we got a right to sell our flats ( which were not allow to do in Soviet times as all flats in appartments were not private property) there are many BOMGs among "normal" people who lost their flats about swindle at property sale market:?

Though I still don't know as BOMGs (like M&M:P) are well come in our hotels now.


PS There is NO inform about "propiska" in our international passports

PSS Now according to new Housing codex you will have a right to "throw out" anybody from your own flat at a "street" ( eighter it will be your wife or husband or child after divorce who got "propiska" in your own flat  without right for property in this flat. The law was signed only this year and we don't know yet all consequences about it. But I guess an amount of homeless will up to a sky:?)

[wxman]

PSS Now according to new Housing codex you will have a right to "throw out" anybody from your own flat at a "street" ( eighter it will be your wife or husband or child after divorce who got "propiska" in your own flat  without right for property in this flat. The law was signed only this year and we don't know yet all consequences about it. But I guess an amount of homeless will up to a sky:?)

Ahh, welcome to America. Except in America, it is generally the husband who the courts throw out of the house after divorce.

[Elen]

In Russia it will depend on who is an owner of flat. Good thing if it will be a wife so child will not wake up some day at a street after their parents' divorce (as for former husband then he desirves that :X:X:X - )Kidding:D)

[BC]

Regarding propiska, does the UK handle Ukraine and RU 'propiska' differently?

Since Ukraine seems to be a good bit stricter regarding the PMZ exit visa stamp maybe there are agreements between Ukraine and UK regarding this?

Since my wife still owns an apartment in RU, she and the kids maintained propiska. Advantage would be if they would ever like to live/study in RU, or we would all like to move there.  Only drawback is paying the small utility fees that are based on a 'per person' accounting. Fortunately small amounts.

Passports etc has to be done in RU, but last word from the consulate is that the laws were changing that would allow them to issue passports directly.

[Leslie]

Hi,

First let me say that I am not a lawyer specializing in immigration and nationality issues.  I am just a regular guy who married a UW and did ALL the paperwork myself.

BC when you ask -

"maybe there are agreements between Ukraine and UK regarding this?"

There are certainly many bilateral agreements on visa and immigration issues between UK Russia, Ukraine, Pakistan etc. The UK government has retained complete control in this area. 

The problem is these agreements are constantly changing!

JB - The UK authorities have no authority to change the details in the domestic passport (propiska)  However they can insist that a visa applicant make these changes as a condition of issuing a UK visa....

Elle,

Natasha and I agree with JB and Etna. You should have no problem booking a hotel or apartment.  Your international passprt is sufficient proof of your identity as you are permanent UK resident.  Send an e-mail to Oksana's travel agency to confirm this.

"Propiska" and the ownership of flats and the right to live in a flat is a VERY complex legal issue.  I became aware of the legions of problems here when I tried to buy a former "komunalka" flat in a "stalinka" building in downtown Kiev.  I backed out.  There was no guarentee that a "bomsch" (tramp) would'nt turn up and claim he had the right to live in one of the bedrooms!!  

Solution. Buy a new flat and avoid these problems!

  


 

[jb]

Yes, Leslie, it's true, "Propiska", or the rights to a flat can be very complicated.  When I first went to Russia I met many men who were divorced, yet still living in the same apartment with their ex-wives.  Both had the right to live there and nobody in the government was going to issue a new apartment to somebody who already had a place to live.  Bear in mind this was under the Sov's, and apartments were State owned.  I suppose the same conditions could exist today but the reasons would be lack of money to buy a new flat.

Regards the "bomsch" (tramp) showing up and claiming a room... Did you ever wonder why the Russians put all those plate steel doors on the flats, with a minimum of 3-5 locks on them?  I assure you it's not to guard all the valuable stuff inside.  I've heard the tramp has to actually get inside and make a nest before they can claim "propiska", it all sounded like BS to me when I heard it, but the person who said it was dead serious.  As you said, "Propiska" is not an easy subject, very complex stuff indeed.

[Elen]

Propiska suited Soviet times rather well (when state gave you free of pay appartments - but size of them were limitted by state as well, to another hand it was a law according which nobody could be trown out from his/her flat whithout given a new one place to live in.) All troubles with those rules began when new laws of "capitalust" society( everybody has a right for property he paid for  came into a conflict with old laws of socialism. ( everybody has a right for dwelling)  For example a common trouble with buying "old" flat was when you bought a flat of some drunkards for cheap and after that it appeared those drunkards had 5 or more children who they "forgot" to mention to you and who had no place to live except now-yours flat.:? 

But new Housing codex in Russia is supposed to solve these problems ( mostly for rich people) though in the same time it causes a million of new ones:? ( mostly for poor folks)