A question for you WMVM guys

[DKMM]

I am gearing up for my 3rd trip.  After a couple of not so good (although still very fun and informative) trips involving WOVO, I am going back for a WMVM trip.  I tried to hold back beforehand, but I find myself writing to 5 girls currently and none know about the others.  It was all fine till recently, now I'm being asked about when I will be there and for how long and etc.

How does one go about explaining that you only want to spend the 1st day with them, and not plan up front to spend more?  I want to proceed gingerly here as honestly they are all quite wonderful and I really hope not to tick them off.  I have not lied to any, but I haven't revealed what I'm doing either because I haven't been asked till now.

Using the agency won't work, as 2 are independent and others are at various (competing) agencies.  My TR will explain more of that later but now I'm focused on how to plan my days there carefully.  On top of it all I plan to see a couple of just friends guys and girls...

I am going to be bouncing back and forth between two cities so I can use that to my advantage, but I also want to avoid lying (not at any cost though, white lies are ok by me).  To dispense up front, I will not lead any girl on or make any promises I won't keep.  For instance maybe I'll have to select the top 2 to keep in the dark and just tell the others and if they get mad oh well.

Any tips?  Or am I just screwed.  I won't write any more as it won't do me any good other than advertising my intent to meet other girls.

[I/O]

Any tips?  Or am I just screwed. 

IMHO you're screwed.  Good luck, you'll need it.

I/O

[Rvrwind]

I don't see a problem. Your not married or engaged to any of them, you owe them no explanation whatsoever. You date one & tell her you'll get back to her you are busy for the next day or two, going to the other city mayhaps & thats that. Should they pointedly ask you if you are seeing other women then tell them, if they have a problem with it TFB.
I get right ticked when a woman tries to put a leash on me & I've only known her for an hour or a day. She doesn't have the right, period. Any woman who does is not for me & thats a fact, I don't tolerate jealousy.
Even when married I don't tolerate jealousy. Do you think I would be in this business if my wife were the jealous type? I don't think so. If you are commited & have built trust there is no need for such a wasted emotion as jealousy.
Your choice but me I wouldn't hesitate or worry about it.

[Leslie]

DKMM

I met my wife via a Write none visit many strategy.  Like you my first (failed) trip was WMVO and after that I dated many.

There is a golden rule on visiting many women - Be honest

FSU women are used to dealing with FSU men so they will certainly know that you are seeing other women.  Do not lie.  Do not be evasive but don't rub their face in this situation.  Tell them up front that you are visiting FSU to see more than one woman.  You may find that some women will drop out or cool significantly.  That is to be expected. 

WMVM is a different approach.  You are not trying to build a relationship before meeting.  You are both checking that each other meets the basic "wish list" requirements.  The relationship happens if you have chemistry after you meet.

The two approaches do not mix.  Adopting a WOVO approach with several women is not advisable.  You will likely be judged a lying "sex tourist"...

My advice is simple.  Tell the truth.  Accept the consequences.  Supplement the reduced dating pool with dates organised by an agency.  Oh and if any of these women try to "claim" you before you have even met. Dump them immediately

[Lily]

yes DKMM, you should apparently think carefully what to say.

Are you going as tourist? May be you could elaborate on an idea that you plan a touristic roundtrip to Russia with a tight and planned schedule, and would like to meet her by occasion. Then make your schedule and inform each girl separately on the time you could devote to her. Also mention that you have a schedule and ask her not to be angry for that small amount of time. Tell that you tried to plan your best and really regret of not being able to spend more time.

I would advise not to tell about any other women unless expressly asked about it. When this is the case, tell the truth, but try to explain her right away that you are honest and don't want to give false promises to anyone, and that she does not owe anything similar to you, too.

I 'd anticipate that it takes quite a lot of tolerance on her side to accept that she is in competition.

[Gator]

Hi DKMM,

You are receiving excellent advice IMO. 

I did the tourist route as Lily described.  None objected, and all made excellent guides and companions.  However, you can see only one woman in each city to make this concept palatable (with a backup plan of course in each city).  Otherwise, it becomes a little tricky but still manageable if you are direct and honest as Leslie said.

When planning my trip, a relationship was naturally starting to blossom with a couple of women after a series of long telephone calls.  I detected some reservation in their voices about my meeting different women, yet neither objected.  One eventually became my fiancée and I later learned she was seeing other men.  As you already know, beautiful women have plenty of choices.

I agree with Leslie that if someone claims you and objects your seeing other women - forget her.  You should not try to appease her in any way, unless you enjoy controlling women.

Also, if one expresses some reservation (vs. objection), just say that you will return soon after this trip and it will be WOVO. 

Good luck.

[WmGO]

Lily gave good advice. Don't volunteer, but if asked tell the truth.

[2tallbill]

Can it blow up in your face??? yes

Will it? who knows

I have done this with limited success and failure

Good luck,

Bill

I started a thread about this previously and it sparked a big debate. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3448.msg62905#msg62905

[Rvrwind]

I 'd anticipate that it takes quite a lot of tolerance on her side to accept that she is in competition.

Lily, why should it be a problem?
Are these women not mature enough to accept that a man must see more than one lady to make a decision.?
Do the women not see more than one man befoe they make a decision?
Any woman with half a brain should be able to understand that his time is limited. He isn't here like I am for years & can take the time to date them one at a time. They see 10 -12 men & sometimes more in a year. He cannot, he only has two weeks. Its not as though he is walking out the door for the evening & landing in Russia. For crying out loud why can't you women figure that out?
He has to pack a year of dating into two weeks, I don't see a problem. If the women can't accept that they best stick to dating Russian men & leave the foreign men to those mature enough to handle it!!!

[CaptB]

DKMM,

Good advice offered so far. Bottomline........be honest. To all who want to give WMVM a try........keep your pre-trip contact "short". The biggest problem I see with WMVM is not the endeavor itself.......but the extent of your contact before your trip. It is exciting to write many beautiful women.......and to have them reciprocate. The problem is.....you are single.....at times lonely (normal).....and this becomes your "hobby". So......in only thinking of "yourself".......the guy writes to several women.......but for an extended period of time. You get to know each other well (so you think)......and "attachment" now becomes and issue. The women....as more time goes on......will start to expect that when you come to visit......you will spend "significant time"...........with them. Now comes the juggling act.....and maybe
some of those women........who were made to feel the beginnings of a "connection".........feel slighted.......or maybe a little hurt.

I see nothing wrong with visiting several women on one trip. I always recomend in this situation to correspond only for a short time.......plan the trip.......tell the women you would like to meet with then for a day or two......on your "tourist" visit.........and "then"......if real chemistry (not virtual) develops with one woman in particular.......I "guarantee" she will make the time for a few more days.....impromptu......later in the trip.......if she really likes you. She may still have to go to work etc..........but she will make time.

Guys that don't take the advice of keeping correspondence brief before the trip (when contacting "many")........always say......"But I feel I will get to know them "better"........with long corresponce". Long correspondence is great with "one"........but makes for many problems......with "many". Let attachments form
after you arrive (rather than before)........and life will be a little easier going the WMVM route.


Capt B

[Kuna]

DKMM,

Good to see you heading back to FSU... good luck on your trip!

The advice you have above is good, practical advice.  As you know my trip was WMVM and it is a challenge because the communication before arriving will create a bond with the girls even if you don't want to do that.

If you're asked directly I think you have to tell the truth but you don't have to volunteer the information.

If one or more girls get bitter and twisted about you meeting others you can be thankful you've seen an unattractive trait early on.

Something I will raise is "What if the first girl you meet is everything you want"?  I took some advice in here (which was good advice) to continue my trip and meet others.  In hindsight I wish I would have cancelled all plans and spent all of my time with the first girl that I met.

You'll have to think about this... what would YOU do?

WMVM is a tough road but it can be done. 

Good luck on your trip!

Kuna

[Lily]

Lily, why should it be a problem?
Are these women not mature enough to accept that a man must see more than one lady to make a decision.?
Do the women not see more than one man befoe they make a decision?
Any woman with half a brain should be able to understand that his time is limited. He isn't here like I am for years & can take the time to date them one at a time. They see 10 -12 men & sometimes more in a year. He cannot, he only has two weeks. Its not as though he is walking out the door for the evening & landing in Russia. For crying out loud why can't you women figure that out?
He has to pack a year of dating into two weeks, I don't see a problem. If the women can't accept that they best stick to dating Russian men & leave the foreign men to those mature enough to handle it!!!

Your arguments are all right, but for the women it's the conflict between brains and heart. With her brains, she probably realizes what you said. But with their hearts, some women can not just stand the feeling that the man is seeing her as one of several options. Some women still want to be one and only right from the beginning, and a few would even renounce from a shopping man right away as they learn about competition      

At the same time, these women would be delighted to know that they have a choice among several men while being their only option themselves.. Not fair.

 

[DKMM]

Yes well this is obviously not an easy cut & dried situitation.  Capt B is hitting it the best I think.  And Lily's advice is essential from a RW point of view.  Thank you all.  I did only communicate with one girl since maybe early february.  then I hit up another in Moscow since I'll be spending a few days there visiting friends anyway.  Now as I get closer I've been writing a few more.  

For some reason I thought yeah I'll just write like 20 and see 10 or something like that but its not really going to work that way.  Also, I was hoping to use the BillyB route and use the correspondence as a way to weed em out.  but I already did the weeding by reading profiles carefully and of course the pictures.  I like all of them.  And I have a zero rejection rate (you can blame my youth and good looks)   So now I have (its six now) a group of fine ladies lined up so to speak.  

I guess I will just make my plans to meet all six, maybe one a day for the first six days.  I have 3-4 days at the end of my trip that are a blank slate and I hope to be filling that with the one i bond with.  If I could figure out which one I really have hopes for I'd see her 1st like kuna did with Ms. D.  I really don't think you can get to know someone too well in emails or even phone conversation.  I'm not terribly worried, just putting out some random thoughts now that I'm starting to focus on this again.  My brain is still wound up from 2 months straight of working 60 hour weeks so sorry if I'm rambling.  

[I/O]

Its not as though he is walking out the door for the evening & landing in Russia. For crying out loud why can't you women figure that out?

Why?  Because they don't want to.  Simple as that.  Richard, you and I have argued this one back and forth a number of times and although I can see your point, the reality is with the women I have met in the FSU, some will tolerate it but MOST don't like it and a lot will NOT accept it.  Richard, I think you view is clouded somewhat by the majority of the women you deal with being listed within an active agency.  Anyone, man or woman who lists with an "On the ground" agency will understand that anyone arriving is going to be meeting many.  That's the nature of the "On the ground" agency process.  The one on one, letter writing introduction, IMO is very different.

The thing which continues to interest me is this.  Many of us have tracked to the FSU because we are looking for something different and then we turn around and try to apply all the same rules as we did at home to meeting/dating women.  Yes, some Russian women will accept this, perhaps many, but in my experience, Russia is at least somewhat different and among the quality of woman I was looking for, generally speaking, they were not too keen on the idea of me meeting others. 

I think Lilly has spelled out the facts fairly well and I am quite impressed with the relatively balanced view she puts forward.

Nevertheless, I don't accept that because you travel umpteen hours and spend a few lousy dollars getting there and only have two weeks give any creedance whatsoever to the "I have the right" arguement.  You chose to go.  You chose to spend the money.  You chose to pursue this idea.  Nobody and particularly no FSU lady bent down on her knees and begged anyone to come. 

I see the ladies who don't like this idea being dismissed as "Controllers and not worthy of his time" and I think it is a rather weak view of these women.  I have seen this question asked several times, BUT it is worth asking again, because nobody really wants to face up to the reality of it.  What would you say if it was the other way around.  I know what I'd say............"Go to hell, go do your shopping and when you can't find what you want then give me a call and if I am still available, I will think about whether or not I'd like to meet you then".

Certainly it can be done, but the guys doing this outside agencies are in for a very tough journey and will need to tell a lot of "Half Truths".

I/O   

[Kuna]

I'm always interested when this thread comes up because some people want to be RIGHT.

The thread creator is usually looking for some advice but instead we end up seeing someone give an opinion and someone else trying to prove that opinion wrong.

WMVM is tough work... TRUST ME!  You don't have to lie though unless witholding information is considered lying.  I don't believe anyone tells all on the first visit and if they do they're only giving their version of reality.  It's a pretty thin line that anyone walks if they claim to be totally truthful.

I think the girls suspect you're visiting or meeting others.  They don't want you to meet others though because we KNOW they find it hard to find genuine, good quality suitors that actually get off their bums and visit.

In WMVM someone's going to get hurt.  That's the worst aspect of it for me and therefore I would just encourage DKMM and anyone else taking this path to do everything possible not to set high expectations for the girls in the correspondence leading up to the visit.

Treat them with respect and understand that you'll probably meet some wonderful girls who aren't right for you.  It doesn't make them any less wonderful but they will be hurt when you choose someone else to be the focus of your pursuit.

We're all looking for the real thing and hopefully we'll all find it eventually.

Kuna

[Leslie]

I would like to pick up on some of the points made here.

Lily makes a valid point.  A certain type of men and women do not like to compete for the affections of another.  These people don’t “date”.  They will interact with only one person at a time.  This is a basic personality trait.  It is the same in FSU and the West.  It applies to both men and women.  Though in general women tend to feel more strongly on this issue,  I have read posts from guy’s expressing guilt feeling about writing to more than one woman.  People with these viewpoints are best approaching this quest by writing, building a relationship and then visiting one person.  It is best to play the relationship game with people who play by the same rules…

There is another group of people who really don’t have problems competing in the dating game.  These people will date (and have sex) with several people at the same time and see nothing wrong in this.  Monogamy will only be established if and when both partners agree.  These people are natural “visit many” types and they will resent people who try to force commitment before they are ready.

It should be patently obvious that these two groups rarely mix when it comes to forming relationships!

The two strategies also don’t mix very well.  CaptB (Marc) spells out the difference very clearly.  The first group will seek to build a relationship via writing and phoning prior to meeting.  The second group generally can’t be bothered to do this. They prefer “face to face” dating. 

I reckon it is best to decide what group you belong to and then approach this endeavor accordingly !

[CaptB]

My first trip to Russia was through an agency in Tver (LTP). I wrote about 16 letters......receiving 14 replies. On of the two who did not reply......was already matched.....the other was on vacation. I wrote introductory letters about five weeks before departure. Several said they would be glad to meet......a little over half.....continued correspondence. Too short of time to really weed anyone out........I ultimately met all 14......and a dozen more........after arrival. I did not want to form any bonds prior to the trip........you will learn more in a day or two...."face to face"........than in several months of writing. In keeping it short and casual (correspondence)......you learn a little about the person......but with no (pre)bond having been formed.....most women would be glad to meet you for dinner...or a day...on your vacation.....and any negative feelings about meeting with a few others will be kept to a minimum. In this way meetings are more on a friendship/curiosity level. As this was my approach......all of the women were very understanding of the situation.....have a nice time out......and meet someone from another culture.

Kuna mentioned .....in hindsight.........that he wished he would have chosen to not see others.......when his chemistry was so strong with one particular women. To this I will say.....the opinion "was"........"in hindsight". You really will not know "who" you have the most chemistry with......until you meet them all. I will say that out of the 14 I wrote......and the dozen more I met.......about five turned out to be strong candidates. One very attractive, smart, adventurous, traveled, funny, intelligent woman......I had very good chemistry with........until another came along......whose chemistry was even stronger.

If you are a "single-dater"......stick with it......it is probably better......for "you". If you are comfortable with writing and meeting many......keep it short.....don't form any strong bonds before you visit.....unless you are willing to "volunteer" that you will be meeting several others. This will keep anyone from having damaged feelings.......because you gave the "appearence".........that your primary interest was only......in "her". Sort these ideas out........"prior" to correspondence. Be respectful of the womens feelings. An initial friendship meeting without a long build-up of emotions......is probably best.....in the case of WMVM.


Capt B

[Bruno]

Anyone, man or woman who lists with an "On the ground" agency will understand that anyone arriving is going to be meeting many.  That's the nature of the "On the ground" agency process.

Let put the agency aside and see the personal relation between a RW and a WM...

With my girlfriend, i was writing and visiting only her... at the first part of the meeting, she have not believe that i was meeting only her... same now, that we speak marriage, she have sometime doubt about other ladies...

Nothing wrong here... but if you see how it work localy in FSU... a lot of Russian men date several ladies... some, same married have a mistress... how can a FSU woman who have no experience ( real relationship ) with a western man can imagine that we are more faithfull ( infeeling or other ) that  RM...

For a RW, if you date only one girl, you will seem to be something out of the norm...

Beware, i say "dating"... it meen that you have not yet use the "love" word... that you are at the initial stage of the relationship, trying to know each other, echanging idea on a possible future together...

[DKMM]

Hmm OK so those within an agency I will of course not try to hide anything.  I'm sure I couldn't pull that off even if I tried.  So I will just make plans and try to nail down a particular day with each girl.  If she doesn't like it, then too bad I guess because I'm not going to drag my butt over there to have another failed WOVO.  Not to mention they are all great and one could be the one so it would be a shame to miss out on her because I only wanted to WOVO.

Still, I'll try to go with instinct and visit the ones I like the best 1st.  That way if I hit it off early I might have to find time to see her each day.  I remember that when you are on the ground over there, the days seem long; a lot longer than when you plan them out in your head beforehand.

One thing I refuse to do is to not meet anyone I agreed to meet because I found a girl I like before her.

[I/O]

I reckon it is best to decide what group you belong to and then approach this endeavor accordingly !

Now this, makes a whole helluva lot of sense to me.  I've done it both ways in the past, but I admit freely that I am no good at juggling several women.  Thus when I started to focus on one at a time, the results changed immediately.

Perhaps this comes back to something about introspection and knowing what you can and can't do before you even start.  I think Leslie has nailed this pretty good.

I/O

[DKMM]

Uh oh, I don't think I'm in the WMVM crowd then.  Its not at all natural or feeling good with me.  But it was what people on here said to try so here goes.  And its too late as I've already commited to doing this.  You will all benefit when i put together how it all shakes out and post a TR.   

[Kuna]

DKMM,

Dude, you'll be fine... Tell them the truth if the subject comes up and have fun. 

The only thing I would urge you to do is throw caution to the wind if you really hit it off with one.  You don't need multiple good matches... just one sensational girl.  If you find a sensational girl with all the chemistry in the first few days I'd focus on her.  It's the only thing I would change from my trip (except guides etc) but we'll all choose our own path.

If you want a great wife you just need 1 great girl.  If you find her you'll know what you want to do! 

Kuna