Non Closure

[Jeff Mowatt]

A disappointing end to something below I posted over a year ago. It seems I've been duped, finally discovering that rather than going to Moscow for a job, she'd married someone else and didn't want me to know until now.

I've asked her why she kept me in the dark so long, but no answer. Not a word from the mutual friend either, though  from her reply she indicates having been informed about me. I'm now wondering if the children were dumped with her mother for a man who didn't want them.

She's happy she says, asking nothing of the people who put themselves out for us when she was here. Nor did it figure that I'd sold my house and moved with supporting the family and returning to her in mind.

What I'd done over the past 4 years adds up to nothing, it would seem.           
 
Jeff

Jack, Your story of a relationship with a younger woman is rather  different to my own. Like you I'd  been  travelling and  meeting  for a number of years before  taking the plunge and  bringing a woman and her 2 children to the UK on a fiancee visa.

At 52 I'd never married or had children and up to the point of her  arrival, our conversations had been around "growing our family" It  was  only a few weeks into her visa that I discovered  that  this wasn't exactly what she wanted.

She'd taken a positive pregnancy test and though it later turned out to  be a false alarm, I learned much in those few days.  it was pretty  plain that this wasn't a moment of joy for her. 

So there I was, having wanted to be a father for a lifetime, though  ready to accept that it might not be possible, about to take two  children into my life,  then discovering not only that it was  possible but that this,  perhaps my only chance, would readlly be  diisposed of. The thought  of marrying someone who  plainly  didn't want my child  naturally  weighed heavily and began to  influence other aspects of our relationship.

It wasn't one of these nightmare stories I've read in dispatches, we  were simply growing apart within the few weeks that we'd lived together.

Eventually I put it to her that we would not marry and I'd support her  back home, that was 2 years ago. I agreed to get the children into a  good school and help her establish a better life, we remained friends  and I re-visited in the hope that her views may have changed.   That was until very recently when I learned that just as I was planning  my next visit, she'd taken off for a job in Moscow.

She wrote briefly before she left to thank me for her birthday flowers,  saying that she'd taken the children out of school and left then in the  village with her mother.  With her parents' sanction she'd gone to  start anew in the hope that  she'd "meet someone to share my life  with".

She had a friend who'd since married in my country.  I'd helped  her too in the past when she'd lost a  job and was faced with  parting with her own child. In fact I returned home with some things  she'd wanted which she thanked me for although her husband having asked  for my address never forwarded what I'd spent. It seemed obvious that  the 2 girls were still in communication but she  had nothing to  say on the subject of the disappearance. So I reasoned, as otherwise  she would have since asked me if I'd heard anything. Hence I've   discounted the thought that she may have been a human trafficing  victim.

These experiences haven't been enhanced by the UK couple who've just  cost Terry and I time and money in attempting to sell their Kharkov  apartment. 

Anyway, I'm left with the conclusion that although a difference in age  might seem acceptable in principle at first, sooner or later the truth  will out and it won't be comfortable.

Jeff

 

[Rvrwind]

What I'd done over the past 4 years adds up to nothing, it would seem.

4 friggin' years & you didn't marry the woman & then you are wondering why she married somebody else???
Only on answer to that I'm thinkin' - 
Don't agree that she should have left you in the dark so long, but the rest, you had that comin', sorry to say.
Maybe I'm readin' wrong but thats what I'm seein'.
Please correct me if I'm wrong...

[Gator]

Jeff,

I read your post quickly.  You were correct in deciding not to marry her - you wanted a baby, she did not.  There is no room for compromise.

A woman will never want a baby from a man she does not love.  Not saying you were unloved, but that was a possibility.  Her already having two children is a strong disincentive as well.

While you were correct in not marrying, you goofed when deciding to support someone with the hope that she would change her mind.  You were already with her for a year (?) and she did not want to have your baby.  Whether she loved you or not, your relationship did not work!   That is a litmus test, and you came out red which means "Next woman".

This went on for two years, with little thought of marriage, and you continuing to hope she would change her mind.  This should not surprise anyone. 

If you were younger, you could dismiss the four years as a learning experience.  However, you are getting old for having a baby.  Surely in this past year or past three years, you have been seeing other women from UK, the FSU and elsewhere. 

Better luck next time, and try to make critical decisions sooner.  If not, you need to visit a sperm bank and make a deposit in case the next one is like the past one.

[Jeff Mowatt]

Yes, it is a long time and foolhardy of me to think that there would be change. This is precisely as you say. Having a child wasn't a deal breaker though she'd talked of "growing our family" before I brought her and the 2 kids  over on a fiancee visa. I could readily accept that fatherhood wouldn't happen at my age, but the thought of flushing it away gave rise to uncertainty, exactly as you describe it   

Not being loved was the thing I wouldn't admit to others, they held their tongues. It wasn't until I'd asked her to go  back and explained to my sister, that someone came out with it - if she doesn't want your child, you can take it as an indication that she doesn't want you. A close friend who spoke Russian then told me that she'd talked about the children having 2 different fathers. I didn't know. It wasn't what she'd told me although I'd wondered with them being quite different in appearance and personality.

All this I was aware of, when I'd made that post more than a year ago. What I didn't know is how much I'd been kept from the truth about her departure. The mutual friend who'd told me nothing was someone I'd helped a lot when in great need and she'd eventually married another British man who'd never know his wife had been supported by me.  I feel just as disappointed with her, relating news of me to my former fiancee but never letting me know what had happened.

Yes, all in all 4 years from her arriving as my fiancee, her going back home, my return and the eventual vanishing trick, though only 2 weeks before we'd talked on the telephone with me finally getting the house sold and preparing to go back to Kharkov to buy an apartment.  I didn't get the news until she'd gone.

So Ok , this played out over a long time by many people's standards, the outcome could have been a lot worse if I'd married regardless.       

[Gator]

Jeff,

Your humility is rare and to be commended.  Few men would come forward and admit such mistakes.  Such self-honesty will help you come out of this with clear vision.

the outcome could have been a lot worse if I'd married regardless

While you made some mistakes in staying too long, you did not make the BIGGEST mistake.

You are not alone.  I also stayed too long with one woman.  And so do many men even though the handwriting on the wall says "stop this  and find another".   We had a huge age difference, and I was taking my time and being careful to make sure the dream was real.  It was real, but the time together revealed that our age difference placed us at two different stages of life. 

She approached me a year after our breakup and showed a willingness to reach a compromise.  However, by then I was involved with another.   

[BillyB]

Jeff,

Stop trying to be a hero and/or trying to buy a woman's love. Your fiancee got support for four years when there was no clear objective between the two of you and a mutual friend got help from you. These women who accepted your support used you plain and simple.

Find/associate with a woman who has her life in order and doesn't need your money. She just might like you for you.

I once wasted a year waiting for a woman to come around but luckily for me, it was only a year in my early 20's. Be prepared to say "Next" quickly if things aren't right with any woman or if you simply don't match up well with her.

[ScottinCrimea]

Another example of the White Knight syndrome.  If you don't free yourself of that you will never find what you seek.

[timothe]

You are not alone.  I also stayed too long with one woman.  And so do many men even though the handwriting on the wall says "stop this  and find another."   

I just did the same thing, Gator.  I was going to try to rekindle relations with the woman whom I applied for a K-1 three years ago.  We spent months communicating and I even planned a trip to Kiev to meet her and her daughter.  But then one day, I woke up and realized that I was willingly giving myself the short-end of the love stick...hoping that she'd come around. 

Jeff, I feel bad for your situation.  I don't have any advice other than to hang in there while the emotions subside.  When your head clears, you'll probably realize that she did you a favor. 

[Jeff Mowatt]

Scott, I have to say that your response comes across as a little patronsing. I'm certainly not the "why aren't you grateful" kind, otherwise I would have been long gone having made such feelings plain. We never had any confrontation  of this kind.

Billy, I think you are a little closer to the reality. She couldn't offer closure due to being completely dependent. I realised that economic disparity featured large in this dependence and that for many this was the cue for looking toward the FSU for a bride, expecting to be worshipped for the rescue and feeling aggrieved that this hadn't happened.

Her friend was a casualty of a American who'd used her, repeatedly "forgetting" the paperwork for their fiancee visa employing her as an accountant at minimum wage and then just dumping her both from her job and his life. My efforts as far as she was concerned was to help find a job which she lost, then set up a business for both of them which didn't really flourish. I wanted both of them to be self-supporting then I'd know where my own relationship stood regardless of money. 

It went further when I became more involved in the interests of poverty relief in general. My friend Terry and I set up operations in Kharkov with him doing what he'd done earlier in Russia, ie sourcing a USAID project to assist  in creation of small business assisted by microfinance. Shortly after she took of for the "job in Moscow" we were able to scale up funding to the extent of now employing an Ukrainian to process our monthly paperwork. So, if this was really about a job in Moscow, there would have been no need for the children to be dumped with her mother, no need for them to abandon the private school in Kharkov in favour of a backward village education.

If I'd have been offered a truthful closure, we could well have made use of the computer she'd left behind instead of it being left for her sister to play DVDs on, for instance.

The relationship was lost long ago, as I realised when I first wrote here. All that grieves me now is the concealment which didn't allow me to move on until I knew, a week ago.       

[groovlstk]

It seems to me that you not only opened yourself up to be used, but by sending her home and supporting her - all based on some foolish and vague notion that she'd somehow have a change of heart - you encouraged it.

In her parlance, she was only being "clever" in accepting your support while looking for a man who truly interested her.

I know this sounds harsh, but if you read this board extensively you'll see variations of your story repeated quite often - including an installment by myself, from early in my journey - and the common element is the aggrieved man coming here looking for sympathy and asking "why couldn't she have just told me the truth and allowed me to move on?" or "how can she sleep at night after what she did?"

Among many FSU women, truth is a very slippery word and expecting them to play by Western rules of courtship is laughable. I know there are guys here who have lucked out and met only good women; they'll scoff at my post and rationalize that "there are bad women everywhere," but in my experience there ain't no bad women like bad FSU women.

FWIW, I'm happily married to the most beautiful, sincere, honest (sometimes brutally so), and tender Russian woman in the world. So it can be done, just heed that little voice inside that whispers to you when something's not right and never, ever commit to someone who doesn't love you in return.

[Jeff Mowatt]

Fair comment, As I've said myself, these women have an instinct to survive which often bypasses Western dating protocol.     

[KenC]

Jeff,
Sorry that you got played like a drum.  Before I get into that, I have some questions for you, if I may.  You talk about a large age difference, what were your ages?  It appears to me that there was at least some communication difficulties, what was her level of English?  It appears low as you only learned of the 2 different Fathers from a friends conversation with your fiancee in Russian.

I think you really need to get your act together if you are going to continue to pursue another RW.  I am only a few years older than you, but I currently have almost 8 years under my belt with my Russian wife.  I just have difficulty in understanding how you could have wasted 4 years of your life on a woman with so little in return.  As I question your ability to communicate with this woman, I think you need to clarify some of your own goals before every venturing into this arena again.  For example, you allude to a simple statement made by your fiancee to "grow our family."  Did you have a detailed conversation on what she meant by this?  Or did you just assume that it meant she wanted more children?  It could just as well meant to "raise" her children.  These are ideas that need to be discussed in detail without any assumptions.  A clear understanding of your goals together is a basic building block of any relationship.  It appears that you ignored the details and hoped that throwing money at the problem would be a solution. 

My initial advice would be to spend less money and more time communicating the details.
KenC

[Bruce]

Jeff, good advice given above. 

I, and I am sure most other board members appreciate your sincerety.

I'd caution you to try to remember to look after your needs above all else when dealing with FSU women.  They sure are looking after theirs.  Three dates is all you should know pretty much how they feel about you.  If within a year of exclusivity you do not know where you stand something is really wrong.  When you find a woman who knows you are right for her, her needs will become mutual needs - or you pull out.  Make sure the choice is always yours.  Never compromise on your own happiness.

Get back on that horse and things will work out for you. 

[Jeff Mowatt]

Ken, Yes a large age difference, 22 years she'd be 34 now. We had talked about the children's father without me making it an interrogation, I'd remarked on the differences and as far as I was told they were both his. She'd related how he'd bribed a notary to avoid paying maintenance for them and gone one to father another by another girl and leave her too. There was something amiss in her once telling me that her ex in-laws didn't have a lot of interest in the second child, perhaps that was just the MIL, the FIL obviously adored the little "Princessa" as I discovered meeting them on my return.

I don't know the full context of this overheard conversation fed back to me later, it could have been a response made in anger at the questions of a relative stranger, though himself an Ukrainian.

My Russian was no more than tourist class, I'd got her into English classes for a year before she arrived and enrolled her at a local college on arrival where she entered at intermediate level. I also encouraged her to socialise with Russian speaking friends who might help in resolving any misunderstanding.

You are right in that I didn't pin her down about "growing our family" before she arrived . As I'd said earlier it wasn't a deal breaker, just a hope. when the matter did enter into conversation her response was that she wouldn't be ready for it for maybe 6 or 7 years, by which time I may have been physically capable but entering pensionable age with a teenage child.

I wasn't really able to throw money at the problem, in that things began to look bad for me when a business partner became terminally ill and income started to decline. Keeping two children and her in college became more than my income would support. I could afford what it took to keep food on the table and them in school in Ukraine however.

I'd suggested downsizing my home to make ends meet and moving out of London which is what I did in the end. That isn't generally welcome by those who think country life is backward, and it wasn't with her either. though that's not the case in England, particularly here, recently rated one of the best places to bring up children in the country.

So, all in all I hadn't really aimed to go back in search again, though the work I've been doing may well take me back if the project there comes to fruition. I now have elderly parents here to think of so in the interim it can't be a permanent move.   

Jeff

       

   

[groovlstk]

Fair comment, As I've said myself, these women have an instinct to survive which often bypasses Western dating protocol.     

I'd say this has little to do with survival instinct and a lot more to do with how gender roles have evolved in the FSU. Russian men are much stronger and more cynical about women than Western men, you'd never find a Russian man behaving in this fashion.

If you're weak enough to allow yourself to be walked on, many FSU women feel as if it's their God-given right to use you for a doormat and any injury you claim is self-inflicted.

[Jeff Mowatt]

Then by this definition, no Russian women could ever meet the grade, yet from the comments of others above, we know this isn't the case. I know it isn't the case from knowing good Russian men.

Sorry, I don't see this as weakness if your intention was to patronise . I'm not the controlling type and may find it harder to achieve my goal. Neither am I a soft touch should it come to comprising on any relationship.     

[ScottinCrimea]

Jeff, you.ve now accused two of us of being patronizing.  We're just tryng to point out some aspects of RW mentality that you don't fully grasp yet.  It has nothing to do with whether or not you are a controlling type and nothing to do with whether or not a RW will "make the grade".  If you expect her to think and act like an AW, than no RW will make the grade.

[Jeff Mowatt]

OK Scott, I'll retract that accusation. There is no doubt that I gave this particular woman an opportunity and wasn't let down for my trust until the end. 

She had no choice but to conceal her intentions but there is I believe a point at which she should have let me know that she'd taken another course. That's really my only issue here.     

[ScottinCrimea]

She revealed her intentions when she had extracted the maximum possible.  Having chosen her new course, it made sense to her Russian mind to make the most of it while it lasted.  The point where she was obligated to let you know was different in her mind than in yours.

This is an excellent point that needs to be brought up from time to time here.  We can't assume that their sense of obligation is the same as ours and we can't assume that their thinking is any better or worse than ours.  We just need to understand it and learn how to work with it.