Housing

[joe rockhead]

I've been reading a lot.  There are quite a few threads stating how substandard the housing is or lacking in the FSU.  I'm wondering: Is there acces to DIY stores, lumber yards, or home improvement centers?  Has anyone ever tried to build over there? Russia? Ukraine?  Are there local building codes or restrictions?

[Lily]

To make the long story short, I could tell that many peole with average income still live in their parents' apartments.
When the older generation pass over  , children get the apartment for themselves.

[Phil dAmore]

Joe:

I can't speak for the outlying villages but in Moscow and Petersburg we have DIY stores that make your average Home Depot look like the hardware aisle at the local K-Mart. In addition to these massive stores there are countless smaller stores selling all types of construction, electrical and plumbing material.  Pretty much everything is available (except window screens... There's a zillion places to buy new windows, but no one has any screens.. WHY?) :noidea:

Building restrictions?  HAH!  As one of my English students related to me (he is a project manager for a large construction consulting company here in Petersburg), at least half of the big projects going on in the city do not have the proper permits (before one can stick a shovel in the ground it is necessary to obtain over 570 different permits).  It's easier to just start building and when the inspectors (who are looking for permits, not build quality) arrive just to pay them off.  It's even written into the budget as a line item!

For DIY projects one can pretty much do anything as long as the outside of the building isn't altered... too much. I've seen people break through outer walls to install windows and balconies.  Inside the apartment, anything goes and to my knowledge there is no inspection although I'm sure a permit is probably required.  No one I know ever bothered to get one.    

Outside the city people have been known to just grab a piece of land, start building and worry about trivial things like who actually owns the land later.   :hairraising:

Add to this the endless construction of new large apartments that are springing up like mushrooms in any open space. BTW, did you know that when you buy a new apartment here all you get is an empty shell?  Yep, it's true.  Bring your own doors, flooring, wall covering, electrical configuration, sinks, toilets, kitchen design and window sills.

Curious fact: While these mega-complexes are popping up all over the city, I have seen precious few that include a design for a parking lot for the new residents.  Apparantly no one thinks that perhaps some of the people who are spending obscene amounts of money on an apartment might actually need a place to park. :selfharm:

[Rvrwind]

I pretty much agree with Phil.
I have been looking into buying land, its something I was hoping to do when I return from my trip home, but with all the crap one must go through it just doesn't at times make it feesible.
Buying & selling property here is the biggest conflguration of stupidity I have ever wtnessed. Add to that the fact that if the government or any lower government agency requires or wants your property, they take it, with no compensation to you.
Land onership here is the biggest farce on the planet!!
Also add to that that if you hire contractors you can be assured that you will have to oversee their work 24/7 to ensure it is done the way you specify & that you can also be assured that even if you signed a contract the price will increase weekly & unless you have the fortitude to stand up to them they will take atvantage.
Its Russia, your not in Kansas anymore Dorthy!

[joe rockhead]

To make the long story short, I could tell that many peole with average income still live in their parents' apartments.
When the older generation pass over  , children get the apartment for themselves.

That sounds like a business opertunity to me.  The possibility of grabbing some land and building some affordable housing.

[joe rockhead]

Joe:

I can't speak for the outlying villages but in Moscow and Petersburg we have DIY stores that make your average Home Depot look like the hardware aisle at the local K-Mart. In addition to these massive stores there are countless smaller stores selling all types of construction, electrical and plumbing material.  Pretty much everything is available (except window screens... There's a zillion places to buy new windows, but no one has any screens.. WHY?) :noidea:

Building restrictions?  HAH!  As one of my English students related to me (he is a project manager for a large construction consulting company here in Petersburg), at least half of the big projects going on in the city do not have the proper permits (before one can stick a shovel in the ground it is necessary to obtain over 570 different permits).  It's easier to just start building and when the inspectors (who are looking for permits, not build quality) arrive just to pay them off.  It's even written into the budget as a line item!

For DIY projects one can pretty much do anything as long as the outside of the building isn't altered... too much. I've seen people break through outer walls to install windows and balconies.  Inside the apartment, anything goes and to my knowledge there is no inspection although I'm sure a permit is probably required.  No one I know ever bothered to get one.    

Outside the city people have been known to just grab a piece of land, start building and worry about trivial things like who actually owns the land later.   :hairraising:

Add to this the endless construction of new large apartments that are springing up like mushrooms in any open space. BTW, did you know that when you buy a new apartment here all you get is an empty shell?  Yep, it's true.  Bring your own doors, flooring, wall covering, electrical configuration, sinks, toilets, kitchen design and window sills.

Curious fact: While these mega-complexes are popping up all over the city, I have seen precious few that include a design for a parking lot for the new residents.  Apparantly no one thinks that perhaps some of the people who are spending obscene amounts of money on an apartment might actually need a place to park. :selfharm:

Thanks, so basically what stops people from building or renovating is cost or amount of skill they have or don't have.  Any idea on what the electrical runs off of.  120 ac/dc or dc?

[ecr844]

It sounds like we may now have a budding competitor for the Lushkov-Baturina empire to contend with....      I'm told by my lady and her family that the law and building codes mean whatever the government wants this second. Always subject to reversal or change to suit their pocketbooks or moving you out of the way of their interests if they decide they need to..

Good Luck,
ECR844

[ScottinCrimea]

When I moved to Ukraine, we bought an apartment which was, just as Phil says, a shell.  Stone walls and windows and that's about it.  Luckily my wife had a degree in building materials and management (for some strange reason).  She designed the interior including electrical and water systems, did a buying trip to Istanbul for better materials, hired the workers and supervised every phase of the work.  Even with my experience in building, I couldn't help a whole lot except with the electrical because many of the materials and methods they use are different and I couldn't speak Russian well enough to supervise my wife, let alone the workers. I was relegated to hauling cement and plaster up 8 flights of stairs because the building was new and the lift wasn't working yet. But hey, I lost nearly 40 lbs and got into great shape, so not all bad. My wife had previously designed and supervised construction of two houses on our dacha with her and her parents doing all of the work. The end result for us is that we have a nice apartment that matches or exceeds most US apartments.  Since then we have been remodeling the building she owns and lived in before into office space.  I learned a lot from the apartment work and have been able to contribute a lot more to this.  It's been a lot of fun in addition to a learning experience.  With some things, like the electrical and gas lines, we have had to go through the process of getting the necessary approvals and permits and that can really be a nightmare because they don't have one central place to do this.  The various agencies are scattered throughout the city and it seems some are deliberately located where they will be the most difficult to find and get to.
     We have quite a few fairly decent building supply places in Simferopol, but nothing close to the size and variety of a Home Depot.  One of the first things I will do after my wife arrives in the US is take her there and watch her salivate.  Most building materials you are used to in the US are available, but not all.  Some will depend on where you build.  for example, in Crimea building stone is cheap and plentiful so must construction is of stone and cement.  In other parts of the FSU, wood is the predominant building material.  Manual labor is very cheap, but it is extremely important that you find quality workers, which can sometimes be difficult.  We hired and fired several before we found some incredibly competent and reliable ones.
     I wouldn't advise anyone, no matter how experienced with construction, to try to do this on their own the first time.  The process will be much longer, more expensive and frustrating than you can imagine.  Once you understand thngs here and know good workers, you can do fine.  If you want to take on such a project, best to find a competent supervisor with a proven reputation that you can trust and turn things over to him.  At one point an Australian living in Simferopol asked my wife and I to supervise the remodel of three apartments that he had purchased for investment purposes.  We reluctantly agree, just because we wanted to help him out.  It turned into a nightmare.  He wanted to micromanage everything even though he knew nothing about construction.  He refused to pay to have the walls cleaned up and properly prepared before they were wallpapered, then complained that the paper he had purchased for $2 a role didn't look perfect.  He insisted on going with us to buy even the smallest of supplies.  We later understood what he was trying to do.  He wanted to learn where and how best to buy supplies and get hooked into the great network of workers that we had.  Then partway through the process, he declared that he didn't need us any more and refused to pay my wife all of what he had promised for what she had already done.  The workers refused to continue working for him because he didn't understand Russian well enough, understood construction not at all, and was just your basic pain in the behind.  That was over a year ago and he has been able to do nothing with these apartments since.

[KenC]

Scott,
Your Australian sounds like most of my customers!
KenC

[joe rockhead]

We reluctantly agree, just because we wanted to help him out.  It turned into a nightmare.  He wanted to micromanage everything even though he knew nothing about construction.  He refused to pay to have the walls cleaned up and properly prepared before they were wallpapered, then complained that the paper he had purchased for $2 a role didn't look perfect.  He insisted on going with us to buy even the smallest of supplies.  We later understood what he was trying to do.  He wanted to learn where and how best to buy supplies and get hooked into the great network of workers that we had.  Then partway through the process, he declared that he didn't need us any more and refused to pay my wife all of what he had promised for what she had already done.  The workers refused to continue working for him because he didn't understand Russian well enough, understood construction not at all, and was just your basic pain in the behind.  That was over a year ago and he has been able to do nothing with these apartments since.

The guy just wants to make some easy money off of your work.  That's just wrong.  I think building the network, finding your key people, looking for deals on materials, putting the project together, and spending time on the tools is the fun of it.  You gotta love this kind of thing and do it because you love it or hire it done.  Thanks to everyone who posted views and insights into this.

[Jet]

He wanted to micromanage everything even though he knew nothing about construction.  He refused to pay to have the walls cleaned up and properly prepared before they were wallpapered, then complained that the paper he had purchased for $2 a role didn't look perfect.  He insisted on going with us to buy even the smallest of supplies.  We later understood what he was trying to do.  He wanted to learn where and how best to buy supplies and get hooked into the great network of workers that we had.  Then partway through the process, he declared that he didn't need us any more and refused to pay my wife all of what he had promised for what she had already done.  The workers refused to continue working for him because he didn't understand Russian well enough, understood construction not at all, and was just your basic pain in the behind. 

Hey Dude, that's residential construction *anywhere*. I'll stick with commercial 

[groovlstk]

One thing my wife doesn't like about apartments in the US is that the walls are very thin and when our neighbors come home late at night we always hear them. The old Soviet-era housing in Russia is ugly but in all my stays in apartments - and I never stayed in hotels, always apartments in Ukraine and Russia - I can never recall hearing any noise from adjoining apts.

[Kuna]

At one point an Australian living in Simferopol asked my wife and I to supervise the remodel of three apartments that he had purchased for investment purposes.  We reluctantly agree, just because we wanted to help him out.  It turned into a nightmare.  He wanted to micromanage everything even though he knew nothing about construction.  He refused to pay to have the walls cleaned up and properly prepared before they were wallpapered, then complained that the paper he had purchased for $2 a role didn't look perfect.  He insisted on going with us to buy even the smallest of supplies.  We later understood what he was trying to do.  He wanted to learn where and how best to buy supplies and get hooked into the great network of workers that we had.  Then partway through the process, he declared that he didn't need us any more and refused to pay my wife all of what he had promised for what she had already done.  The workers refused to continue working for him because he didn't understand Russian well enough, understood construction not at all, and was just your basic pain in the behind.  That was over a year ago and he has been able to do nothing with these apartments since.

Must have been from Sydney - hey I/O??? 

[Phil dAmore]

Thanks, so basically what stops people from building or renovating is cost or amount of skill they have or don't have.  Any idea on what the electrical runs off of.  120 ac/dc or dc?

Cost really isn't an issue.  Anyone with money has more of it than they know what to do with. In Russia, pretty much everything that's imported has a huge import tarrif (some say it's 100%) which of course gets passed on to the consumer. If you use Russian-made materials things are a lot cheaper, but don't expect a great deal of quality.

As posted above, labor is cheap and plentiful, but you really have to watch them.  Surprisingly, many remodelers employ women, some of whom are very good at what they do. Here's how it typically works:  Your 'contractor' tells you what kind and how much material you will need and YOU have to go and buy it.  Note: Delivery for materials can get REALLY expensive.  Sometimes you will even have to provide certain tools.

Since everyone in this country is a specialist, you can expect to have one person to prep the wall, another to put the paper up, another for the floor, another for the ceiling.. etc.  Depending on who you use and who THEY are working for the project can be completed quickly or drag on for months.  It took over a year to do my small apartment.

Electricity is a 220-volt, 50 Hz. AC single-phase two-wire ungrounded system. It is extremely dirty current and given to frequent fluctuations ranging from 180-245.  If I had to do it over again I would invest in a voltage stabilizer and filter for the whole apartment. Most interior wiring is solid-core aluminum.  In older apartments the system is woefully inadaquate for modern life.  These places were wired for a refrigerator, a couple of ceiling lamps and maybe a radio or TV.  That's it. Over the years there have been countless tie-ins, taps, splices and other types of 'work' done on the system, and this has resulted in a rats nest of wiring that causes a shiver every time I think about it.  Why there aren't widespread electrical fires is nothing short of a miracle.

Don't even get me started on what the plumbing is like...

[ScottinCrimea]

Hey Phil, it could be a lot worse.  In Ecuador the water system consists of one pipe with a concrete septum dividing it into two halves.  Clean water flows down one side and sewage flows down the other.

[Rvrwind]

Why there aren't widespread electrical fires is nothing short of a miracle.

Easy Phil, concrete & brick don't burn so good!
The electric in our building goes off anywhere from 2-5 times a week for periods of 10 minutes to 4-5 hours. Nothing unusual, SOP.
What can I say, I gave up trying to figure it out. Best is to go back to scratch & do it yourself, then its done right. I have yet to see a specialist here that is a specalist at anything other than taking your money for doing nothing.
If I ever do manage do get into a position where I can afford a house I will build my own, then its done my way.

[Phil dAmore]

Richard, if I ever remodel my place again I want to hire you as a supervisor... and also to do the trim and finish work!

[Rvrwind]

Phil, I love ya' like a brother Dewd, & I'd be happy to do it, but it will cost you!!

[joe rockhead]

Don't even get me started on what the plumbing is like...

Careful, your going to get me excited.  A whole country to re-plumb up to the Canadian Plumbing Code Standards... omg... omg is is true?

[Rvrwind]

A whole country to re-plumb up to the Canadian Plumbing Code Standards... omg... omg is is true?

Oh, yeah, its true, as well as the electric!! You can have a ball!!!