Counter-Offensive !!

[Admin]

Over the years there have been many researchers and journalists who have visited discussion forums, ostensibly in the search for insights about those of us who seek, or are married to, a foreign partner. Many of the articles have been, IMO, insulting, misleading, and subscribing to an impartial agenda. Case in point, the Schaeffer-Grabiel article posted elsewhere on RWD which has in the opening paragraph, the following:

Scholarship on the mail-order bride industry in Asia and Russia tends to emphasize the exploitation of poor women in developing countries by Western men as part of the sexual trafficking trade, an emphasis that reproduces binary relations of power between developing and first-world countries.

She footnotes the one exception (a book by Nicole Constable, Romance on a Global Stage (2003) ), but then fails to address that exception in the remainder of her assault on the men involved with foreign women.

Notably, she used our sister site at Planet-Love.com as the seedbed for much of her article.

If any of you feels offended at these gross mischaracterizations and would like to actually *DO* something about it, I want to provide a platform. I challenge you to provide a counterpoint to the materials produced in these articles. I have established a separate forum so that you may exercise what Michelangelo called the "Ladder of Thought" to vett your ideas and develop your piece - BUT - what I would like to see is a well-reasoned and professional rebuttal of the issues raised in these sorts of articles.

I raise the Schaeffer-Grabiel article to your attention because:

(a) She relied upon a discussion forum just like RWD to develop material which she claims supports her various claims, and
(b) The article was published just over a year ago, so it is relatively recent, and
(c) That article is being actively used by various lobbies to support their claims - such as IMBRA.

If any one, or a group, of you are able to present a highly-polished rebuttal of her article, I will do what I can to make that counterpoint widely known - through use of the International Relations sites - and through addressing the issues directly with some of the 'academics' who support the development of such articles. We *can* be heard on these counterpoints, and I *will* find ways to make people aware.

The new forum for Counterpoint may be found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?board=61.0.

Please note, this is NOT a license to engage in mud-slinging or character assassination or anything other than a professional presentation of arguments to disprove claims made which we know to be misleading and/or offensive. What happened originally when the Schaeffer-Grabiel article was released is that some guys found her profile at UCSD and began ridiculing her physical appearance or her assumed inability to find a partner. All of that kind of garbage is just that - pure garbage. When someone reacts to a criticism by launching a personal attack, they are essentially admitting they cannot articulate a reasonable argument to provide counterpoint. It makes them look dim and without substance. This new forum will NOT be used for such purposes. It will be a forum where intelligent counterpoint may be developed - and the goal is to provide balance in the face of agenda-driven criticisms.

Let me know of any questions - or better - let's rally some of the energy and intelligence of the 2300+ members of RWD to develop, and present, our position.

- Dan

[jb]

Well,,, she prolly based most of her article on posts from LP.

[Admin]

Well,,, she prolly based most of her article on posts from LP.

Nope. Her primary focus was on Latin America. She even traveled to LA and interviewed a PL regular (Pete E), who died recently from a botched surgery in Colombia.

HOWEVER, her criticisms (as you can see in her opening volley) are aimed at ANYONE involved with a foreign woman - from any country.

- Dan

[ScottinCrimea]

Dan, Can you post a link to the article?

[Admin]

Dan, Can you post a link to the article?

Here it is -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3326.msg60788#msg60788

The article is in PDF attached to that post.

- Dan

[Bruno]

Over the years there have been many researchers and journalists who have visited discussion forums, ostensibly in the search for insights about those of us who seek, or are married to, a foreign partner. Many of the articles have been, IMO, insulting, misleading, and subscribing to an impartial agenda.

And what !!!

Do you think that a serious research will interest someone ?

The majority of us are usual normal guy... a researcher publishing/making a paper over usual people, the standart Joe will not be read and know his/her hour of glory...

You need to be shooking, telling scary story, add a little sex... and people read the researcher paper...

Hey, same here, we have our little share of special guys... these who are food for so research... remember the recent discussion about one trip report... These trip report is always at the top of the main page of the section... sorry, second position... but the negatif comments begin to lower on these first page... in some time, it will be not possible to see it on the first page... a researcher who wish make a paper about trip report will see these one first... and these will be a very good reference for a sensation paper about sex tourist in FSU... of course, in the same way, we will all become sex tourist for outside people...

Seriously, i don't care about all these study/research anymore... what really count is that i know my own value and that my girlfriend appreciate it... what the rest of the world think is not my problem...

And what we can change... history repeat itself... now, people think that you are crazy or abnormal when you seek a wife from a other country... 50 year ago, it was the same if you was seeking a bride in other state... 100 year ago, it was the same if you was seeking a bride outside your city... So, yes, maybe we are not in the actual norm... but what we make now will be something usual in 100 year... maybe some century later, these planet will be the "united states of earth"... foreign dating will not more exist since "foreign" will not more be !!!

Our problem is limited to "border"... but think about how it was some decade ago about color... white/colored marriage was see like something bad... but the world have slowly accept these mixed marriage... sure it will happen for us... when? I don't know... but i don't really care... we are pionnier... why worry about the inerte massa of conditioned people !!!

[beachcomber556]

I can only speak of our experiences, and know nothing of the Schaeffer-Gabriel article or UCSD.  But from the general tone of discourse, I can extrapolate the cornerstone of her hypothesis.  Essentially, any Western man who seeks a relationship with a woman in the nations of the FSU is a loathesome creature to be despised and treated as a pariah in civilized society.  We are simply using our relative wealth to take advantage of the impoverished helpless waifs for our unseemly and often perverse pleasures.  

While no doubt there are some Western males for whom this characterixation would fit like a well tailored Italian suit, such is not the case with this American man.

I met Viktoriya while on R&R in Odessa.  I was serving in Iraq.  From the outset I realized that she was the woman for whom I had been searching all my life.  I went to Odessa because as a child of the Cold War I had long been fascinated by this mysterious city on the Black Sea.  I knew nothing about the "women of the FSU", the so called agencies, mail order brides, scammers, etc.etc.  Over the course of a year I made several trips to see Viktoriya in Odessa, and last August we were married there.  We now make our home in Houston and we consider ourselves completely blessed to have found each other.  

To the detractors of East / West relationships, I can only offer our little successful outcome as proof that it can and does happen, and respectfully request that they gather all the facts and tell both sides of the story.  Are their men with less than honorable intentions?  Yes, of course.  But likewise there are women who also have less than honorable intentions who are intentionally and with cold, heartless calculations, using their feminine wiles to victimize Western men.  Fortunately or unfortunately, this is not a situation that is reserved soley for Western men who get involved with Eastern women.  It happens right here in our beloved America every day.  

I applaud this forum and the men who have spent so much time to its creation.  Thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak.

Thomas Flinchum
Houston, Texas

[I/O]

Dan:  I printed a copy of the article and lay in bed last night reading it as a substitute for my favoured "Russian history book of the moment".  It will not be an easy article to take to pieces although, if and when I have some time, I wouldn't mind "Having a play" with it. (Don't hold your breath)

As always, there is an element of truth in much of what she has to say if one reads it objectively. I detected a hint of Racism and Religious bigitory in the article at a "scan read", which is somewhat surprising given the author is cross bred herself.

There is times when I feel motivated to launch an all out structured attack on some of the opponants of this pursuit and other times my natural lethagy allows me to think............ah why bother, simply allow them to continue to wallow in their ignorance.

I/O

[Cold Warrior]

Dan,do you remember when so called researchers came on the PL board years back and everyone shouted TROLL?, those were fun days.

[Admin]

Dan,do you remember when so called researchers came on the PL board years back and everyone shouted TROLL?, those were fun days.

CW,

I do, indeed, recall it well. The 'Claire-Witch Project' was a classic. What a weird one - even engaging in a somewhat friendly offline dialogue with Jack - after he (and others) exposed her and her trollish antics.

Plenty of trolls still around. Just some better controls with which to 'deal' with them - and the members are pretty good about handling them as well.

I hope all is well (and safe) in your neck of the woods these days.

Take care,

- Dan