The end of a beautiful era!

[Wayne B]

And if the only time she laughs is during sex, you have a real problem!

Scott, she laughed at one of my jokes to

[TigerPaws]

Scott, she laughed at one of my jokes to

Was that a big joke or a little joke?

[Daveman]

..do you realize how much time it may take you to master a foreign language?!

Thanks Serebro... I don't really need "Mastery" for what I'm trying to accomplish, just excellent communication skills... I think within a year of serious daily study, I can accomplish my goal... my ultimate goal is to spend a couple of years living in the FSU... living in Ukraine, traveling to Russia... I had already begun these plans prior to meeting Natasha, and I see no reason now why I shouldn't move forward with the original plans..  Basically, I'll have a home base in Kharkov (where a trustworthy friend wants to assist me in the project) and travel around Ukraine and Russia, photographing different landmarks in different cities and countryside.  If my language is up to snuff, I can meet any number of ladies during this time period and perhaps find Ms Right, and also build one hell of a portfolio of a region of the world I simply adore.

Scott:  SON of BEECH... SHEET!!!! (whap)... my problem there is I don't really drink.. if I get drunk, I would probably yell and then hug the toilet for hours. Now that's romantic.. 

Ken: I'm sure you didn't mean that in an insulting way...  perhaps it's a matter of semantics..  I'm putting things into a perspective of "what did I really have" as opposed to "what I believed I had", or "dreamed I have".. whatever...  my commitment to marriage was unquestionable.  I fully believed this woman was the one for me, with every fiber of my being... so I was working toward a K-1, and planned to live with her in Russia for several months... I don't see how I could have been more committed than that... geez... but I also believe that true love.. to be "in love" takes time.. time... more time... living together for many months.. etc...  perhaps others will disagree about that... I really don't care because whatever they believe about it doesn't change what I believe about it.  There is no doubt in my mind that if I had gone back to Russia, and we lived together for several months, I would have been head over heels, madly crazy in love with Natasha.  Until the day she broke it off, I couldn't imagine my life without her... But, "in love" now? I don't think so, but that certainly doesn't make me dishonest.  I can't believe anyone who has read anything I've ever posted about her would possibly question my commitment to her, to the process, and to making it work. I simply couldn't do it by myself. It's a done deal.. I cannot change what is, so I'm gathering what I can from it and moving forward.

A.J.: Thanks ... excellent post.  Again, another true jewel of a post in this thread along with I/O, KenC, Catz, CapB, BillyB, jb, Serebro, WayneB. Jazzy, Turbo, Scott, TP, Maxxum, Phil, Kuna, Shadow, Mir, Dkmm, Richard...... really everyone posting here has brought a perspective and ideas that make this bad time into the possibility for something good to come from it... good for me... good for a newbie thinking about this pursuit..

And yes, it may be a shcit sandwich in my life.. however... look at the beautiful colors of the amazing brown as it mixes with the white of the bread.. yep.. there is *always* something good in every situation.. even if it's only a bit on knowledge to be gained..

Dave

[catzenmouse]

Dave,

 No, not meant to be insulting at all. Sorry it came off that way. Thanks for elaborating on it as that puts it into a better light.

Ken

[Daveman]

Dave,

 No, not meant to be insulting at all. Sorry it came off that way. Thanks for elaborating on it as that puts it into a better light.

Ken

Ken, No apology necessary Bro... I knew you didn't mean anything bad by it... no eggshells needed for walking here... I know where your and Elena's hearts were in this thing.. I won't forget it.

Okay to Kuna's original question:

We were "together" a total of just about 8 months.. dec - july.. her English improved some, yes, but nothing like other guys describe their wives doing.  She took lessons when she could after we met, but not before.  Her lessons were sporadic, and in her defense I can say that her occupation was with a party/event planning company (spring through summer is the outrageously busy season) and she really did work and ungodly number of hours.. so going all in on the English lessons consistently was not possible for her.. she'd go all in for three weeks, then work until too late in the evening to be able to make the class time - however, she wanted to keep working at that job long enough to put together her friend's wedding in August.. then the deal was for her to find a different job, and I would help her some financially with both the lessons and expenses, beginning in September when I came to visit and we lived together.  I would take Russian classes, she would take English classes, and we would both share living expenses.  Seemed reasonable to me. Yes? no?

Now, I just ran across another jewel of a thread... posted just about a year ago... about "luck" - Capmonk makes some excellent points, and A.J. had another killer post on the first page of this one (among others) I think it's a must read to go along with this thread I think..

people need to really understand this process of risk management or "attracting luck" and  "repelling bad luck".. however you slice it, increasing the odds of success/reducing the risk of failure should the primary focus of this game. Check it out...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1951.0

Dave

[jj]

Daveman- I am glad to see that you are already making plans to move on.  Take a break, have a cool one, relax and clear the mind.  You are young and have time to find the right FSU woman who can speak english and will desire your love , and give love in return.  The rest will fall into place with working on the relationship.  I was blessed to find my Marina, and the chemistry and language was there. I give her so much credit for wanting to learn her english ahead of time, and also her daughter. 

Even tho she speaks english well, most FSU do not speak "american".   One way we find humor with each other is to teach each other american and russian slang.  One morning after we flew to Moscow to meet each other for a week, I got up and went to the kitchen longing for my morning cup of coffee.  She make the tastee coffee as usual and I went to put my honey in the coffee, and she stated that she had already put it in the cup.  She knew exactly how much to put in.  I said "wow, you are on the ball".  She looked at me funny and said "what is that?".  I apologized for not realizing I was speaking american slang, and said that means "you are with the program" , suddenly realizing that this also was the wrong statement. I then proceeded to explain how efficent she was and we had a good laugh.  Now she tells me when I am or am not "on the ball".   This expands our humor and communication, and often calls for a kiss! HA! Hang in there and you will find the love of your life Daveman. Good Luck!-j

[KenC]

jj,
Good point.  My wife spoke good English from the get go, but the first year still had some communication bumps in the road.  Some of it is the slang but others will be in the tone of the voice too.  We both were constantly getting our feelings hurt by what the other was saying until we realized that it was a language thing.  I have advised guys here to step back and think about communication problems before getting too emotional about what was said.  It also works the other way around too.

Knowing the gaps that still persist after as much as a year together, makes me laugh at the guys that analyze every word written in initial communications with RW.  They sometimes hang on every word written and the communication usually just isn't that refined.
KenC

[RK]

We both were constantly getting our feelings hurt by what the other was saying until we realized that it was a language thing.  I have advised guys here to step back and think about communication problems before getting too emotional about what was said.  It also works the other way around too.

KenC

Excellent advice KenC. I just experienced a lot of that this past trip to Ukraine with my fiancee, and after talking it out, we both saw how emotions were getting blown out of proportion because of communication issues. As you say, it works the other way too, as she acknowledged at the time and took responsibility for,  but as I reflected back on the issues as we discussed them, I could see I needed to take that step back you mention and not get to emotional. I really was misunderstanding her meanings in a few instances. Our last couple days together were wonderful and our conversations on the phone have been back up to par as well. I think when I go back in a couple of weeks for my monthly visit we will have moved yet another notch forward in mutual love and respect for each other.

[HiTech]

KenC game me that advise also over the phone. Very good advice. I discussed it with Natalia , but she really did not ever did get the concept. Her not trying to understand the concept and always putting the problem back on me was one of the resones I decided to end it.

HiTech

[Daveman]

JJ, I gotta get on the ball with the program! And not laugh when she hurts her leg fingers, and and and....  All very true. Hanging on every word is a sure fire way to become embroiled in idiotic arguments over nothing. 

And then, even with a fluent common language, there's the different "cultural" perceptions of reality (which will sometimes make you wonder what planet she's actually from) and there's still that Venus vs Mars syndrome... (which proves the aforementioned planetary theory anyway)

Geez, what the hell am I doing? Seems the odds of success in the long run are more favorable playing Russian Roulette with a semi auto..    Kidding of course... I think... maybe.. 

Congrats RK, I wish you the best with your lady...

HiTech, I've been there too... It really sucks, but sometimes you just have to break it off now for a better future opportunity.  Actually I don't feel so bad.. two beautiful FSU ladies wanted to marry me, one didn't - though also, with this one if we had made it to the "living together in Russia" phase, we could have come to the conclusion during that time that we drive each other insane and can't live together... that's always a a real possibility... It's one thing to be living in passionate infatuation where everything is colored perfect by blazing hormones, but day to day reality can become hard to live with... This process works one step at a time I think... phase by phase... getting ahead of yourself in any one phase just isn't very conducive to long term succes with the *right* woman.  Those hormones can often make a lady Godzilla into a princess for a while.. I need to relocate my old X-ray vision glasses from the back of the Captain America comic... those and a Mighty Shield may assist me on the next journey! 

Dave

[Serebro]

.. two beautiful FSU ladies wanted to marry me, one didn't - though also, with this one if we had made it to the "living together in Russia" phase,

Were you going to live together in Russia?

[Daveman]

Were you going to live together in Russia?

Hi Olya, yes, that was the plan... does that seem a bit strange to you? In my mind, while better than one single visit then marriage, three or four 2 week visits won't necessarily shake out the real differences or issues between two people because each visit has that initial "so glad to see you" hyper time to it and doesn't really have a chance to settle into normality.  A relationship will either solidify into something very firm and real or it will fall apart with extended face to face time when people settle into being themselves and just "live".

I'm certainly not saying that's the right way for everyone, but for me.. I want to handle a few "crisis" moments, handle a few major disagreements, be forced to find compromise a couple of times... jostle the cup and see what spills out so to speak.  Not that I want to pick fights to get answers, just normal relationship progression as much as possible. Give her family plenty of time to get to know me and accept me as well as *us*.... Plus, the more time I spend over there, the more I'll understand her, the situation, and the hardships she'll face over here..

Nothing can remove *all* risk in this, but I think if it can be done, this is one of the lowest risk approaches for avoiding the K-1/Marriage/MomentaryBliss/OhHell/WTF?/whoAREyou?/OhMyGod/PHUCK/Divorce  possibility.. 

Dave

[TigerPaws]

Nothing can remove *all* risk in this, but I think if it can be done, this is one of the lowest risk approaches for avoiding the K-1/Marriage/MomentaryBliss/OhHell/WTF?/whoAREyou?/OhMyGod/PHUCK/Divorce  possibility..  Dave

Daveman,

While your idea sounds good at face value there is no guarantee's in live, the only thing you can be absolutely sure of is that one day you will die. Everything else is up to you.

TigerPaws 

[Rvrwind]

the only thing you can be absolutely sure of is that one day you will die.

LMAO, Tiger, you forgot Taxes!!! 

[Daveman]

Yep, I'll die, and taxes... and make mistakes.. I understand there are no shortcuts, no guarantees - but maybe the trick here is to avoid becoming a master of what NOT to do..

[TigerPaws]

LMAO, Tiger, you forgot Taxes!!! 

Richard,

 I did not include taxes because at least in America and Canada not paying your taxes is not a capitol offense (yet) so a person does not have to pay taxes, all that can be done yo you is to put you in jail.

TigerPaws

[Gator]

Daveman,

Sorry for your disappointment.  Congratulations for being smart enough to walk away. 

My assessment from your clues and my own experiences is that the two of you would not have fallen in love even if she were fluent in English.  Not speaking the same language simply delayed the inevitable. 

This does not imply that she is a bad woman – just that you and she are too different (and admittedly I have zero knowledge of those differences).  All couples have differences.  It matters how we reconcile those differences.  Not speaking the same language delays recognition of differences and, once recognized, inhibits their reconciliation.

Happy to know that you are still considering RW.  My word of advice, meet many women.  Look for a woman who makes you feel as if you have known her for a long time.  Very few women ever made me me feel that way.

[Rvrwind]

at least in America and Canada not paying your taxes is not a capitol offense (yet)

I don't know about that. Try not paying them & see the uproar. I havn't filed taxes in 5 years, when I go home I can already imagine what I am facing & it ain't gonna be pretty!

[Daveman]

Daveman,

Sorry for your disappointment.  Congratulations for being smart enough to walk away. 

My assessment from your clues and my own experiences is that the two of you would not have fallen in love even if she were fluent in English.  Not speaking the same language simply delayed the inevitable. 

This does not imply that she is a bad woman – just that you and she are too different (and admittedly I have zero knowledge of those differences).  All couples have differences.  It matters how we reconcile those differences.  Not speaking the same language delays recognition of differences and, once recognized, inhibits their reconciliation.

Happy to know that you are still considering RW.  My word of advice, meet many women.  Look for a woman who makes you feel as if you have known her for a long time.  Very few women ever made me me feel that way.

Well said, Gator.. I agree... I/O, CaptB, TB, among others said this as well, and I am sure you guys are correct.  It had more to do with *us* than the language.  The language thing was the source of the most frustration for me, so it felt good to vent about it a bit.

As for me, really, I still don't think I'll try that type of scenario again.  Unless she's really something special, like former KGB with access to tranquilizer darts and mind control drugs..

It's all good... You guys cracked me up when I needed it... put up some excellent points and counterpoints which will help anyone starting out in this... and I've learned quite a bit about myself, which is the most important thing.  This international marriage thing isn't rocket science, it's some basic knowledge (study of culture), common sense and hard work.. like any relationship or most anything in life for that matter. It always boils down to dealing with people, personalities, and compatibilities.

Time to invoke the Nazis and move on... ooops, that's right, can't purposefully invoke... must come into the conversation normally.. alrighty then...

Death and Taxes... damn the IRS is such a GESTAPO organization! 

Thanks everyone,
Dave

[DKMM]

Daveman,

I know how hard it is to walk away from something like that.  its immensly difficult and I'm sure you had some sleepless stressed out nights.

Gator's point is valid, but also the lack of language can eventually lead to frustration between you two.  And it takes both partners to be able to deal with that frustration. Intimacy also is left to non verbal realm which isn't really how we emotionally bond with someone.  I'd say that it might be possible things would have worked out had communication been easier.  I say that because I know for certain my relationship would be over at this point had she not been able to communicate clearly at some critical times.  And 90% of our current problems come from that lack of understanding (cultural cues, inflection, Russian translation of English words etc).  Its hard enough sometimes for men and women to feel each other even in our own language!

Good luck with your future voyage, you will be able to pick her out much easier this time around I think.