Newbie question

[privet]

Hi Guys,

I've been studying Russian for five years now, and since I'm moving to the Ukraine in March, I'm trying to sell the bulk of my materials. But I don't want to violate any forum rules here, and thus it seems like I should ask, first, if I can post a link to my stuff on ebay.

And anyone with questions related to learning the language, I'd be glad to help!

Thanks,

Mark

[SacramentoSteve]

Since I'm currently studying the language, I've read every thread on this board about learning the language, and I like reading how other people have approached this difficult language.

I'd be interested to know what your fluency level is after five years of study, and what approach you took to learning the language.  I.E self study, Pimsleur, Rosetta Stone, or formal college courses, tutors. etc.?

If you could back 4 years in your study, what would you do differently (if anything) to help you learn the language faster & more efficiently?

Are you moving to Ukraine for work, or for a woman? 

And about your question, someone else will have to provide you with the answer.

Oh yes, Welcome to the boards! 

[Shadow]

Hi Mark, after studying Russian for 5 years, moving to 'the' Ukraine might make it more or less of a waste of time. 

[privet]

Hi Sac/Steve!

I can speak conversationally for hours, which some people would qualify as "fluent", but it's not my personal definition. To me, fluency is the ability to watch a film in another language and understand, say 85%. I'm not close to that. There are these great newscasts in simplified Russian at George Washington University's site, for example. I understand between 70 and 95% of those, and always feel great after listening. But then I listen to a *real* news broadcast...my God, they speak quickly! (Here's the link, by the way: http://www.gwu.edu/~slavic/webcast/

Anyway, it's possible to learn to speak Russian entirely on your own, at home, without living in Russia (and with only minimal contact with live, native speakers.) Here's how I did it...

Things to note:
-- I've never studied any language before, other than the obligatory two years of Spanish in H.S. ("Taco" and "burrito" are about all I remember).

-- I am a professional guitarist with a good ear, but never had much of a knack for doing imitations, etc.

In short: Four hours a day of study my first year, three hours per day since then.

The longer version:

I bought everything: All three levels of Pimsleur; Levels I and II of Rosetta Stone; Vol's I and II of the Nachalo college textbooks, and Vol's I and II of the Live From Moscow college textbooks; the Berlitz course; the Living language (into, and advanced), not to mention three dictionaries, 750 Russian Verbs and Their Uses; and a slew of grammar books, including my favorite, the indespensible ESSENTIAL RUSSIAN GRAMMAR by Brian Kemple. And more. Children's books, some audio-only things, etc.

With the Pimsleur, I transcribed the entire thing. First, into notebooks, and then onto cards, putting the English on one side, and the Russian on the other. Also, I tape recorded only the Russian parts, so as to test myself later on. (Speaking of tape recorders, I have burned through four of them.)

I then made study cards of virtually every sentence in all four of those college textbooks. Put bluntly, that was a crapload of writing.

With the Rosetta Stone, I didn't like the constraint of being bound to the computer, so I recorded my own study cassettes. I'd say the English version first, and then record the native speakers. But i also went further. For example, each time, say, a new verb was introduced, I'd look it up in one of my books and read examples of its useage into my custom-made study tapes.

And then guess what? After making one of these tapes, then I'd listen to it a week later and write out onto cards every sentence (Russian on one side, English, the other).

A week later, I'd test myself on those cards, underlining all the missed ones.

And re-test a week after that, underlining all the ones I missed (in a different colored pen each time). At the end of the month, the ones I had the most trouble with went onto special cards which i carried with me and tested myself on everywhere. (And still do.)

In the meantime, I'd be reviewing old tapes in my car, at the gym, etc. I don't count that time spent in my three hours a day, really.

Last year, I applied all the above methods, creating my own 13 tape course from Princeton's totally free three semester's worth of Russian. (The link is down now, though others seem to have the files and are sharing them.) The Princeton course was simply awesome.

Recently, I've been transcribing those simplified GWU newscasts. And I am currently studying a textbook/video called (in Russian) "What Do You Think About It?", using the same methods described above.

Results?

I went to St. P and Kiev one year after first starting to study Russian, and I found that people understood everything I said, but I understood very little of what they said to me. Sentences were too long, too coloquial, and way too fast. Thus, my second year was spent with more emphasis on listening/transcribing. After two or three years of study, I was still dismayed at how long it took me to calculate, if you will, the right phrasing. Friggin' Byzantine grammar...not to mention the often paralyzing aspectual verb-pair system.

I'll end with: Why? I simply fell in the love with the language...its sound, its complexity, its *alien-ess*. All I wanted, at first, was to get a grip on the basics, so as to order food, get a taxi, ask a girl her phone number, etc, but, man, once I got into it, I was hooked.

So, it *is* possible to learn a language, if you are passionate, obsessive, and have three hours a day. For me, it's 1.5 hr's in the AM, 1.5 hr's in the PM, and virtually no TV.

I'm moving to Ukraine (and yes, there are people who still say "THE Ukraine" because it was the accepted way of phrasing it, and we forget the new way sometimes...) to become fluent. I need to be forced to use it 10 hours a day, not two or three. I need to be immersed.

re: Shadow...I'm not sure why you think it might have been a waste of time to study Russian. The places I'm going to be (and have been), Russian is the only language spoken. All my Ukrainian friends speak only Russian. Especially in the Crimea (or must we now say "in Crimea"?), Russian is clearly the dominant language.

[privet]

I didn't add this to my post, in case it requires deletion by the moderator. Here's links to a *part* of my collection on ebay. I have many more books and tapes, etc, for those interested...

(Rosetta Stone)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250194973523&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123


(Nachalo textbooks)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250194995648&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123


(Live From Moscow text)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250194997132&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123


(random collection of useful books and tapes)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250194999733&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123

[SacramentoSteve]

Nichivo Cebe! You are one truly motivated language learner!
That's the type of reply I was hoping for.

Many parallels between how you started the language, & what I'm doing now.

I'm actually aware of the Princeton lessons and have them all on my computer. I'm 25% through that course.  I've even exchanged some emails with the creator, & he said they were doing one lesson per day (1 year period to go through them all) but that was probably too much.  I only recently DL'ed all of them, as like you say the main link is down.

In my early stages of study, I too see that the phrasing will be a big problem.  Also, I watch Russian televsion & the lightning fast speed at which they speak makes it difficult to pick up even obvious words at times.

You must be from MasterRussian too. 

Oh yes, so why are you moving to Ukraine?  If you don't want to answer that's fine of course.

Udachi, with your ebay auctions!

[ScottinCrimea]

Welcome Mark,
     I certainly don't have the drive you have to learn Russian.  I did spend time with Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone as well as a few months of one on one tutoring and actually living in Ukraine and being immersed helped quite a bit, but I still struggle with much of the grammar and unfortunately at some point became complacent and settled for a lesser level of fluency than you seem to have.  I'm back in the US now so my fluency has slipped a bit, but when I return to Ukraine to live for good I'll be diving back in full force.
     Where in Ukraine will you be living?  I lived in Simferopol and loved it.

[privet]

It probably got lost in my post, but I'm moving to Ukraine to master Russian. And yes, for the women, too. I'll teach English there part time (I've already been offered a job), but mostly I'll be immersing myself in the language. I did the same thing with guitar when i was a teenager...dropped everything, moved to LA, and played ten hours at day, attending the Guitar Institute of Technology. Worked out pretty well, but this is my new obesession, and I have to tackle it. I've done as much as i can from the U.S.

I plan on starting in Sevastopol, but might move to Odessa. I want to be onthe water, but I have heard lots of nice hings about Simferopol. It gives me pause...

Any tips on life there, Scott, would be very welcome.

And Steve, assuming you live in Sacramento with its huge Russian-speaking population (of mostly Ukrainians, if I'm not mistaken), you should be able to find lots of natives to practice with. I'm jealous!

[SacramentoSteve]

How exciting, and sounds like you have just the type A drive to achieve your goal of mastering Russian.

I'm curious, how many trips total have you made to the FSU over your 5 years of study?

What type of professional credentials (if any) do you need to teach English in Ukraine?

Yes, I do live in the Sacramento area and discovered there around 100,000 Russians/Ukrainians in the area.  I have a friend married to one of them.  Rather large number considering Sacramento isn't a huge area like L.A or S.F for example.  As a matter of fact, I'll be spending the day today with another one of those 100,000   
No need for you to be jealous though, as you'll be living amongst the natives in just a few short months.
It does help alot to get instant correction on my pronounciation & to listen to the native tongue, but not much help at all with the grammar of course. 

You are right, this is one of the largest Ukrainian populations in the U.S.A.

Interesting tidbit:  Why Sacramento?

I recently found out that a big reason why Ukrainians starting coming here in large numbers was because of a radio program of all things that started in the late 80's, or early 90's.
This radio show was broadcast from here and reached Ukraine.  The host of the radio show was apparently a native Ukrainian.  They got the idea to come here based on his message that it was a great area & that most shared their religious beliefs etc, & the great weather.  Atleast they were right about the weather, aside from the sweltering Summers.

So from your prior post if you could go back 4 years in your study what would you focus more on, listening/transcribing like you said?

Any tips for me...? I'm about 8 months into daily self study.
Any other essentials amongst the materials you described aside from "Essential Russian Grammar"?
I have Pimsleur right now, but that is it aside from some grammar books, & the online Princeton lessons.

Earlier in this thread, someone made a comment about you saying "to the Ukraine".  Some people on forums like this love to point out when someone says something like "moving to the Ukraine" instead of "moving to Ukraine".
They associate that with being a newbie, hence the nature of the comment.

Also, I read here often & Scott is very helpful in his posts, so he will probably have some helpful tips for you.

[privet]

Hi Steve!

The radio...that's why they all live in Sacramento? Life's funny sometimes.

I've been to St. P and Kiev ('04), Moscow and Odessa ('06), and Krasnodar ('07). In Moscow, i gave a guitar lecture all in Russian, at this huge music store. *That* was cool. I actually wrote out the entire 1 hr lecture, because although I speak quite well, I'm the most fluent when reading it. Anyway, that whole trip gave me a lot of confidence.

I think overall, I've balanced things pretty well. That is, you asked what I might change if i were to start over. Either way, transcribing, in my mind, is key. I mean, it cuts right to the chase: Either you can decipher what you're hearing or not. And man, sometimes when I transcribe, I have no idea what I'm hearing...but that's exactly the point. You can see how your brain really hears things. The next time you hear them, your brain will decipher them better. Just as one example:

If a Russian person is transcribing a convo between two native English speakers, he might write down something like this:

"...Yes, I'm really hungry. Jeet?"

Later, he turns to the actual transcript of the convo, and sees what the guy actually said was: "Yes, I'm really hungry. Did you eat?" And then he *really* learns something useful, namely that in fluid speach, "did you eat" often sounds like "jeet".

In Russian, as just one of a thousand examples, ????????? often sounds like "???????", that is, with the "?" missing. At least, to my ear. And that's what's key. Learning how you, yourself, hear and interpret these things.

But you must transcribe with no foreknowledge. Listen to the audio of the lesson FIRST  without reading it at all. Transcribe as best you can. Then check against the transcription. Do you know mango?

http://www.mangolanguages.com/index.php

Try it there, too. Transcribe first, then check your accuracy.

My two rubles, anyway.

[privet]

Oops, Cyrillic didn't come though.

"Pravilno", to me, sounds like "prailno"...

[privet]

Sorry, just noticed that you also asked: Any tips for me...? I'm about 8 months into daily self study. Any other essentials amongst the materials you described aside from "Essential Russian Grammar"?

I could write a book on tips, but such books already exist. For example, here's cool article on language learning: http://www.english-learning.co.uk/voc.html
I'm sure the guy has books available.

And 8 months into it? If pronunciation is still an issue (which it was for me), then I'd highly reccomend that book I'm selling on ebay called Pronounce it Perfectly. Also either of the textbooks I used (Live From Moscow being more interesting for me, because of the interesting storyline in the DVDs.)

Random tips: Buy LOTS of index cards. Write only full sentences. Carry your toughest ones of the week with you everywhere. I sometimes feel I learned Russian mostly in my car, at the gym, and waiting in lines at the bank and grocery store. (In my car, I use those self-made cassettes.)

[SacramentoSteve]

Thanks for the advice, it's appreciated.

I see the value in writing complete sentences on index cards.  I have alot of Pimsleur written on 3x5 cards, but unfortunately I only wrote complete sentences maybe half the time, and I'm seeing that was a mistake.
I'd write out only "Posli etova"  Or  "Ot Kavo", etc without using them in sentences and I'm realizing that was a mistake,as now when I try to form sentences in my mind or when talking it does not come easily. I have to do it all over from scratch with Pimsleur, or alot anyway.

I had not heard of mango, aside from the fruit & the old SNL character.  But I will look into it.

Also, I don't even watch TV anymore,  aside from a rare DVD's I cancelled Comcast, and do not miss it. Although, I have a 50 inch HD TV whose primary function now is a dust collector.

I'm checking out your Ebay auctions now to read the product descriptions.

[privet]

Mango is still in the beta-testing stage, and thus, still free. There's about 100 "slides" as they call them per lesson, but really only the first one is relevant. All the rest are computerized breakdowns of that opening convo, with bits from earlier convos thrown in. You'll see. My point is: Essentially, you can just listen to the opening slide (well, Slide #2 always has the convo.) Rem: DON'T LOOK! No cheating. Listen, and write, then compare. That's it. From there, make index cards of all the phrases that are new to you.

Steve, re:my ebay stuff...As it stands now, there's only a bid on one of the textbooks. If nothing else sells, I'd sell you virtually my whole collection, including hundreds of my older study cards, for $300 plus shipping. The Rosetta Stone alone is worth it...

[SacramentoSteve]

Hi Mark,

Please check your Private Messages on here.

I'm writing one now to you.

[Christian]

Hi Sac/Steve!

I can speak conversationally for hours, which some people would qualify as "fluent", but it's not my personal definition. To me, fluency is the ability to watch a film in another language and understand, say 85%. I'm not close to that. There are these great newscasts in simplified Russian at George Washington University's site, for example. I understand between 70 and 95% of those, and always feel great after listening. But then I listen to a *real* news broadcast...my God, they speak quickly! (Here's the link, by the way: http://www.gwu.edu/~slavic/webcast/

Anyway, it's possible to learn to speak Russian entirely on your own, at home, without living in Russia (and with only minimal contact with live, native speakers.) Here's how I did it...

Things to note:
-- I've never studied any language before, other than the obligatory two years of Spanish in H.S. ("Taco" and "burrito" are about all I remember).

-- I am a professional guitarist with a good ear, but never had much of a knack for doing imitations, etc.

In short: Four hours a day of study my first year, three hours per day since then.

The longer version:

I bought everything: All three levels of Pimsleur; Levels I and II of Rosetta Stone; Vol's I and II of the Nachalo college textbooks, and Vol's I and II of the Live From Moscow college textbooks; the Berlitz course; the Living language (into, and advanced), not to mention three dictionaries, 750 Russian Verbs and Their Uses; and a slew of grammar books, including my favorite, the indespensible ESSENTIAL RUSSIAN GRAMMAR by Brian Kemple. And more. Children's books, some audio-only things, etc.

With the Pimsleur, I transcribed the entire thing. First, into notebooks, and then onto cards, putting the English on one side, and the Russian on the other. Also, I tape recorded only the Russian parts, so as to test myself later on. (Speaking of tape recorders, I have burned through four of them.)

I then made study cards of virtually every sentence in all four of those college textbooks. Put bluntly, that was a crapload of writing.

With the Rosetta Stone, I didn't like the constraint of being bound to the computer, so I recorded my own study cassettes. I'd say the English version first, and then record the native speakers. But i also went further. For example, each time, say, a new verb was introduced, I'd look it up in one of my books and read examples of its useage into my custom-made study tapes.

And then guess what? After making one of these tapes, then I'd listen to it a week later and write out onto cards every sentence (Russian on one side, English, the other).

A week later, I'd test myself on those cards, underlining all the missed ones.

And re-test a week after that, underlining all the ones I missed (in a different colored pen each time). At the end of the month, the ones I had the most trouble with went onto special cards which i carried with me and tested myself on everywhere. (And still do.)

In the meantime, I'd be reviewing old tapes in my car, at the gym, etc. I don't count that time spent in my three hours a day, really.

Last year, I applied all the above methods, creating my own 13 tape course from Princeton's totally free three semester's worth of Russian. (The link is down now, though others seem to have the files and are sharing them.) The Princeton course was simply awesome.

Recently, I've been transcribing those simplified GWU newscasts. And I am currently studying a textbook/video called (in Russian) "What Do You Think About It?", using the same methods described above.

Results?

I went to St. P and Kiev one year after first starting to study Russian, and I found that people understood everything I said, but I understood very little of what they said to me. Sentences were too long, too coloquial, and way too fast. Thus, my second year was spent with more emphasis on listening/transcribing. After two or three years of study, I was still dismayed at how long it took me to calculate, if you will, the right phrasing. Friggin' Byzantine grammar...not to mention the often paralyzing aspectual verb-pair system.

I'll end with: Why? I simply fell in the love with the language...its sound, its complexity, its *alien-ess*. All I wanted, at first, was to get a grip on the basics, so as to order food, get a taxi, ask a girl her phone number, etc, but, man, once I got into it, I was hooked.

So, it *is* possible to learn a language, if you are passionate, obsessive, and have three hours a day. For me, it's 1.5 hr's in the AM, 1.5 hr's in the PM, and virtually no TV.

I'm moving to Ukraine (and yes, there are people who still say "THE Ukraine" because it was the accepted way of phrasing it, and we forget the new way sometimes...) to become fluent. I need to be forced to use it 10 hours a day, not two or three. I need to be immersed.

re: Shadow...I'm not sure why you think it might have been a waste of time to study Russian. The places I'm going to be (and have been), Russian is the only language spoken. All my Ukrainian friends speak only Russian. Especially in the Crimea (or must we now say "in Crimea"?), Russian is clearly the dominant language.

Privet,

Nu, privet!  I just wanted to express my admiration of your diligence in your pursuit to acquire and master Russian.  I wish you only continued success.

Christian