Character Problems with RM and RW

[WmGO]

AAsh,

Thank you for the long speech about yourself. 
Although I respect and admire your personal attributes in regards to
honesty and communication, I was looking for you to elaborate on your statement
that it is "hard to find a truly honest Russian woman ." You did a little bit
with this statement:

Truly honest woman is a rare thing, especially Russian. I think those who are successfully married on this board fished out the best of the best from Russian environment, they are in this sense not typical.

but I was looking for more elaboration  -  and I am not referring to the "little
white lie" examples that you referred to as being common in the West (how do these
jeans look, etc.).

Since this is an educational forum more than anything, please elaborate on the
differences between Russian culture and mentality vs. the American when it comes
to honesty. What are those differences? What have you experienced individually, and
as a helper of AM seeking FSUW? Do you see any differences as being the product
of the Soviet era, or something that precedes that era? How do Russians generally view
each other - meaning, non-relatives and non-close friends in the context of social, economic and business interactions as it relates to the subject of honesty? Same question but between AM/WM and their involvement with RW.

Thanks Anastasia.

[timothe]

Do you guys know what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean, Anastassia!!  It is in the nature of women to be dishonest.  All you have to do is read a fashion magazine to figure that out.  That is also why women cannot take a direct yes or no as being yes or no.  They are too busy finding the hidden motive.   

I remember some comedian (maybe Chris Rock), who commented about women using makeup to lie about their looks and clothing to lie about their figures and cream to lie about their age.

My sidebar says "Self honesty is a very elusive thing" and I have never explained it here, but this thread, coupled with my boredom at work, sparks me to comment on honesty as I see it.

There are three types of honesty.  Cash register honesty, truthfulness, and self honesty.  They are all quite different.

Cash register honesty:  This is the most basic form of honesty and it is what most people who think they are honest, refer to as honesty.  The best example of this is at the grocery store when the cashier gives you too much change.  If you return the extra money, you are being honest, but only cash register honest. 

Truthfulness :  Truthfulness is the act of telling the exact truth regardless of circumstance.  If you were caught doing something stupid by your boss, your act of fessing up to the act is truthfulness.  Truthful people are often thought of as being honest because they don't try to "explain away" their actions, even if it causes embarrassment or harm.  They "shoot straight" as some people would say.  Still, truthfulness is a far cry from being honest. 

I have story about the difference between the three levels of honesty, but it's a long story, so I'll post again with the story.       

[timothe]

(continued from a previous post)

Now, for the story.  Let's assume for this story that I took my buddy's wife Josey to a motel to have some fun. 

So Josey and I go to a motel to spend the night.  When we get there, we get one room.  We act like we are husband and wife and we sign in as Mr. and Mrs. Lilly to obtain our room.  (Lilly is my last name) 

We do our thing and then go back to our homes acting as if nothing happened.  Is this honest?  No, of course not.

Now let's say that Josey and I go to a motel to spend the night.  When we get there, we sign for the room under our own names and get one room.  She signs her name and I sign my name. 

We do our thing and then go back to our homes.  She admits to her husband that she went to a hotel with timothe and I tell my Olechka that I went to a hotel with Josey.  Is this honest?  NO!  It's truthful, but it's not honest.

Honesty implies honor.  And behaving with honor means doing the honorable deed.  Going to a motel room with Josey is not honest because she is married and I am engaged to be married. 

Self honesty goes beyond words and even actions.  It gets down to causes and conditions. Self honesty doesn't allow for justification or rationalization.  Self honesty is completely independent of all outside forces.  (people, places, things, events)  That is why I believe that self honesty is very elusive. 

It is so easy for people to behave badly when someone else has behaved badly to them first.  We all know that giving the middle finger salute is wrong even if the guy cut you off in traffic.  Yet, we feel justified in giving that middle finger salute.  Or cheating on taxes.  Or yelling at the waitress who screwed up your order.  Or punishing your other half with the silent treatment because you didn't like what they said or did to you. 

But we all know deep inside that one bad action or word does not deserve another bad action or word.  (I could easily replace the word "bad" with selfish or dishonest.)  To obtain a level of self honesty that does not waver, one must find the causes and conditions in one's self that trigger the behavior.  Then, one must find a different reaction to replace the selfish and dishonest reaction.   

I don't claim to be anywhere near perfection in regards to self honesty.  I just work at it because I think it is the road to happiness and serenity.  My quest in becoming honest with myself consists of meditating and praying pnly for God's will in my daily life.  I've been doing it for a long time but I don't know if I'm all that much closer to self honesty than when I started.  However, I can state with certainty that my daily life is much much better than it used to be, before I went down the road of self-discovery. 

Sorry to sidetrack the thread.     You may now return to the original subject matter.   

[AnastassiaAsh]

Since this is an educational forum more than anything, please elaborate on the
differences between Russian culture and mentality vs. the American when it comes
to honesty.

Generally both Russians and American people are honest. There are dishonest both here and there.

In Russia in communist/totalitarian era it was impossible to speak your mind officially.
(you could get yourself in a pile of trouble). Otherwise, people were honest.

As to Americans, the people are honest. There, surely, are dishonest and swindlers, as everywhere (watch "American Greed", CNBC, I am sending you back to ENRON CASE, and the like...) Does it mean all the nation is dishonest? Of course, not. The overwhelming majority of people are honest.

What are those differences? What have you experienced individually, and
as a helper of AM seeking FSUW?

American men much older than their respective Russian fiancées should never forget that they are in a more dangerous zone, in the same way they would be, if their American prospective fiancé was much younger. It is not about honesty. It is the same as investing in high risk.

Leona Helmsly at 84 was absolutely sure her boyfriend of 47 loved her, not her money. To her sincere surprise, and it came as a revelation to her, he was after the latter. She called him a swindler. Judge yourselves.

Conservatism, moderation or high risk – for different folks different strokes. Calculate your risk yourselves. (and I am always here to help you with your individual situation based on my knowledge of Russian and American life and nuances)

Do you see any differences as being the product
of the Soviet era, or something that precedes that era? How do Russians generally view
each other - meaning, non-relatives and non-close friends in the context of social, economic and business interactions as it relates to the subject of honesty?

Russians are more cautious when facing business interactions because the first decade of capitalism proved to be full of frauds. Putin admitted that dealing with corruption is one of his (and his successors') priorities.

Thanks Anastasia.

You are very welcome. 

[Bluebell]

Anastassia, this explanation is not in proportion with your very heavy statement, which picked WMGO's interest. Do you still maintain this statement? I quote it again : ''Truly honest woman is a rare thing, especially Russian. I think those who are successfully married on this board fished out the best of the best from Russian environment, they are in this sense not typical.''
How many successfully married men are on this board? 20? 30? Very little number. What is the number of women in Russia? Somehow things don't match, can't believe the luck of these men, who without knowing much of the language, culture, country, customs were able to pick the best of the best. Either there must be more, and in big numbers, from honest women in Russia, either...?

[Blues Fairy]

"Everybody lies" (c) 

[Eduard]

"Everybody lies" (c) 

and that's the truth

[Eduard]

Anastasia,
I usually don't like to generalise, but in my personal experience I found a lot of cultural differences and a different perception of what honesty is in different regions of the FSU.
What are your thoughts on that?

[WmGO]

Anastassia, this explanation is not in proportion with your very heavy statement, which picked WMGO's interest.

Yes it was a complete 180 turn around:

ha-ha! Well, I am here, and i can tell you that I never ever trust completely any Russian man or woman, doesn't matter if i know them or not, the only exception is my closest relatives. And I trust my husband completely, also because Americans, Canadians, Westerners in general are honest and trustworthy. How economy and environment makes Russians be dishonest - that's another topic overall, but that's true, it is ingrained in lots of Russians because it is the matter of survival.
 

Personally, I think AA's original statements and observations are much more
accurate than her 180 turn around post........



P.S. Thanks Photoguy for the highlight, copy and paste tutorial.

P.S.S. The  AA quote comes from the Damaged Women thread in the Experienced
Forum Feb. 10, 2008.       

[possum]

"Everybody lies" (c) 

What are you, Dr. House?. 

[Eduard]

even my own wife lied to me!!!!
before we got married she told me that she would definitly play beach volleyball with me and the other guys and girls I play with...well she played like twice in 3.5 years of marriage...vo babi, kak vam verit'???

[Al_C]

even my own wife lied to me!!!!
before we got married she told me that she would definitly play beach volleyball with me and the other guys and girls I play with...well she played like twice in 3.5 years of marriage...vo babi, kak vam verit'???

Well that happened to me ONCE and once only,with an Israeli national who I met here in New York.  I made it quite clear to her (and to all other ladies I meet) that the beach is the centerpiece of my social life such that a lady who does not like the beach will not be happy with me.  She replied that she "loves the beach", but that turned into a desire to go for an hour or two once or twice a year back in Israel and not once during the five years she has lived in New York.  Needless to say, our relationship did not survive its first summer.  Now I press for specifics up front and weed out the non-beachers before getting involved.

I think that the character of your RW will depend on many factors, including where in Russia she is from.  If she is from one of the large cities, where there is more money and more ways of making it, she is more inclined to be happy with where she is living and does not see your American city as being better.  If you want her, you had better sell her on your personality because you are not going to sell her on your city or on your money.  If she comes from a one parent household and runs one herself, she is not likely to be impressed by exorbitant spending by you, seeing it as wastefulness and not as generosity.  Yes, buy her gifts to show your thoughfulness, but don't go overboard on cost.  After all, she is looking for a husband and not a boyfriend and wants to see financial responsibility.

There is no one size fits all among RW, just like with AW.  They are all different.  Understanding the culture is a great thing, but understanding the individual woman is a greater thing.

[Eduard]

well I don't see my wive's lack of desire to play beach volleybal as a relationship breaking thingy. We do go to the beach with her and the baby every Sunday. I play volleyball and they play on the children's playground or near the water. When the water is warm you can't get my daughter out of there, she loves it.