Do what I mean, not what I say.

[jb]

Elen,

There's nothing wrong with driving a second hand (used) car.  I think, just my opinion, it's false economy to buy "new" cars.  I buy all of my vehicles at least 1 or 2 years old to avoid the huge depreciation that occurs in the first year.

This series of posts strikes very close to home because when my wife first arrived I bought her a nice little used car, a 1999 Mercury Mystique for about $4,000.  I figured she could ding up four corners of it while she was learning to drive and I'd not lose my shirt in the process.  Well, she's now a very competent and more experienced driver and needs a better car, I just bought her a 2004 Toyota Camery, a sweet little car with only 20K miles on the clock.  By buying a one year old car I saved half the price of the new ones.

Buying new cars are for the very, very rich, or for the very, very foolish, IMHO.

Likewise, her laptop computer came from e-bay, a top of the line IBM ThinkPad, also one year old, and she's as happy as a pig in a puddle with it.  In that case it wasn't so much as a gift as it is a tool for a school teacher.  Like any family, we live within our budget and we economize wherever possible, throwing money away stupidly will earn me a ass chewing quicker than anything else.

[Bruno]

Bruno!! You are just hopeless econom rational European - just right that kind which Russian call "greedy Europeans"

My "european greedyness" have allow to my ex-wife and her daughter to life confortable without the need to work... same with a little income...

Us, in the Western side, we try to budget our money at long term... and we are responsible for our family... Caviar on the table one day by month is not logical if you have nothing to eat the rest of the month... better kip each day... Yes, your russian man make beautifull girft during courting... by what after marriage... some begin court other woman, some go away when the wife is pregnant,...

Usually, the RW who have know so problem with RM, begin search abroad... they search the long term stability... not a wonderful dating year followed by the economical hell...

I am not greedy, i share all my money with my partner... i only take care that we have enough until the next paycheck and don't spend all in one day... a real man is not these who spend a lot of money for impress a woman, it is these who is responsible and take care of his family day after day...

And if some RW don't agree with my method, she can always stay in Russia and search a RM... It is not me who wish quit my own country but if i choice to life in Russia, i go adapt to the tradition... if a woman choose to life in Belgium, she need to adapt... if she is not able to make it, it is better she return home...

What russian call "greedy man" is some false reputation... Russian man make the big show for impress woman but since they are married, several have not enough money for take care of the family... it is not unusual in Russia that the main money winner in the family is the wife... it is the wife responsible for the family... RM spend a lot of money in one day and after, nothing... and us, the greedy, spend the same amount but everyday a little...

Of course, some RM are good too... some are responsible... but the % of bad one is more high that in other country... only economical problem... yes, i know that Moscow and other big city don't have so problem but Russia is more that only some big city...

[Bruno]

Like any family, we live within our budget and we economize wherever possible, throwing money away stupidly will earn me a ass chewing quicker than anything else.

 

All i have wish explain but in very short... good post...

Now, i have a little question... here in Belgium, second hand auto have some other advantage... more low tax when you buy, more low insurance... is it the same in USA ?

[jb]

Bruno,

Your question is impossible to answer.  Unlike other countries we do not have a national license plate on our cars and trucks.  Each State issues it's own tags and has it's own insurance standards.  In Texas we are taxed on the sales value we pay for the vehicle, insurance is based on your personal past driving record.  Prior accidents , or a poor driving record will result in higher insurance rates.  

I think most States are close, but there will be some differences.

[Journeyman]

PS As for me at your place I would be scared with too rational girls.

Hey guys,

Elen makes a good point here.  I was in a serious (I thought) relationship with a RW for many months.  From the beginning, I sent her flowers on ALL special days, and also every 5 or 6 weeks if there were no special ocassions that ordinarily called for flowers.  After about 6 or 7 months, guess what, she says to me . . .

"Flowers are beautiful, but only for about 1 week.  Then, they die.  You spend so very much money on flowers for me.  They are not necessary.  You can send to me the money instead."

When I heard this, at first, I thought like a good ole' Western man. . . . "Oh, fantastic!  She is a very rational girl, and just wants to not waste money on things that die quickly."  I thought this, even though I had always known what a HUGE role flowers play in the life of a RW.

Fast forward another 5 months.  Eventually (it's a long story), I learned that she was just using me for money, gifts, and other things that elevated her lifestyle.  I awarded her an Oscar for acting the part of a girlfriend for a year, and then got on the plane to return home.

While I was always fully cognizant of the absolutely HUGE importance of gift-giving in Russian culture (good gifts, that is), I will now also keep a wary eye out for the "practical" Russian woman during any phase of a romantic courtship.

Thanks again to Elen for raising that point.

Journeyman

[Elen]

There's nothing wrong with driving a second hand (used) car

And why did you decide I's against used cars? I would not be "insulted" if some american would present it to me ( till it was not used 20 y.o. Russian car :?)

And AGAIN I'm NOT about used things in principal I am about GIFTS for "special" events and during a period of "courting" AND about things which "in principal" could be bought like a present in "new" condition.

Cars, Picasso, villas and yachts ARE not in this cathegory

 

What russian call "greedy man" is some false reputation... Russian man make the big show for impress woman but since they are married, several have not enough money for take care of the family... it is not unusual in Russia that the main money winner in the family is the wife... it is the wife responsible for the family... RM spend a lot of money in one day and after, nothing... and us, the greedy, spend the same amount but everyday a little...

Bruno!! Each Russian woman does know HOW "rational" she will has to be after wedding with our salaries. So don't rob Russian women about a chance to test something else during that very short period when males are still able to do not-rational things to us.

How else can I explain you that the best thing is exactly "no-rationalism" during courting?? Actually a cost of gift is not ( in mostly cases) a"pleasure" for females. The more exiting thing is to know that for you this man shut down all rational voices in his mind:P

What do you think girls ( and you as well) will remeber in old ages - how many money have been saved with rationality or unpractical flowers each day?


 

 And if some RW don't agree with my method, she can always stay in Russia and search a RM... It is not me who wish quit my own country but if i choice to life in Russia, i go adapt to the tradition... if a woman choose to life in Belgium, she need to adapt... if she is not able to make it, it is better she return home.

 

Has already found one with your method?

[KenC]

Elen,

That was one heck of a great post.  What does rationality have to do with courting? NOTHING!

KenC

[Journeyman]

[user=21]KenC[/user] wrote:

What does rationality have to do with courting? NOTHING![/size][/font][/b]


Agreed.

As nature has designed it, the mating impulse is a state of temporary insanity, intended simply to perpetuate the species.  By itself, it rarely provides a man or woman with a good, compatible partner and lasting happiness.  To make a good choice for one's self, you've usually got to override your own impulses, but also understand hers.  You had better keep her primal psychology in mind from the get go, and attend each and every day (or moment, if possible) to those things her "insanity" deems important for you to become her potential mate.  That deserves another thread.

Gift-giving is usually an integral part of this dance.    

Journeyman

[Photo Guy]

Yes Elen, during courtship in the US, men USUALLY give new gifts like jewelry, clothing, perfume, decorative items - anything we know she will like. And we know she would rather have something new, rather than 'used'.  I would say a computer might be an exception, that is utilitarian, like a telephone, and you could carefully give it with another new gift, saying, 'I was considering giving this laptop to my friend Igor, but I thought you might like it. We can use it to exchange emails!'

[Journeyman]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Yes Elen, during courtship in the US, men USUALLY give new gifts like jewelry, clothing, perfume, decorative items - anything we know she will like. And we know she would rather have something new, rather than 'used'.  I would say a computer might be an exception, that is utilitarian, like a telephone, and you could carefully give it with another new gift, saying, 'I was considering giving this laptop to my friend Igor, but I thought you might like it. We can use it to exchange emails!'

Photoguy,

So now you are telling her that she is an "afterthought"!

If you are going to attempt to give her something utilitarian, especially if it is not new, simply tell her that it is yours, and that you want her to use it to communicate with her,  because hearing from her is SO important to you.  She needs to feel special, and first and foremost on your mind.  

It is sometimes more the frame than the picture itself.

Journeyman

[Photo Guy]

Yes, you are right. The point I was trying unsuccessfully to make, is that a lot depends on how you present the gift to her.  You could ask her if she wants it, rather than acting like it is a special gift. I don't think a used computer would be a good gift on a special occasion like birthday, etc.  For example my sister asked me if I would like her old 34 inch TV. She is shopping for a new 56 inch DLP TV. I was not insulted. It was not a Christmas gift for me. I turned her down because I was already happy with my 32 inch TV.  She has not spoken with me since.    (a joke)

[Michelangelo]

Like any family, we live within our budget and we economize wherever possible, throwing money away stupidly will earn me a ass chewing quicker than anything else.

 

All i have wish explain but in very short... good post...

Now, i have a little question... here in Belgium, second hand auto have some other advantage... more low tax when you buy, more low insurance... is it the same in USA ?
[/quote]Good point, Bruno.  The answer is YES, the insurance cost on a less expensive and less sporty car is considerable less...and it holds true throughout the US.

[PeeWee]

Elen,

There's nothing wrong with driving a second hand (used) car. I think, just my opinion, it's false economy to buy "new" cars. I buy all of my vehicles at least 1 or 2 years old to avoid the huge depreciation that occurs in the first year.

This series of posts strikes very close to home because when my wife first arrived I bought her a nice little used car, a 1999 Mercury Mystique for about $4,000. I figured she could ding up four corners of it while she was learning to drive and I'd not lose my shirt in the process. Well, she's now a very competent and more experienced driver and needs a better car, I just bought her a 2004 Toyota Camery, a sweet little car with only 20K miles on the clock. By buying a one year old car I saved half the price of the new ones.

Buying new cars are for the very, very rich, or for the very, very foolish, IMHO.

Likewise, her laptop computer came from e-bay, a top of the line IBM ThinkPad, also one year old, and she's as happy as a pig in a puddle with it. In that case it wasn't so much as a gift as it is a tool for a school teacher. Like any family, we live within our budget and we economize wherever possible, throwing money away stupidly will earn me a ass chewing quicker than anything else.

After reading this I don't know if I am going to completely buy into this don't go used with Russians concept. I have a friend who lives in Vladivostok that I was interested in at one time. We met a couple of times in order to know each other better. I did buy her a used lap top from Ebay. She did not have one at all as she was using the Internet cafe. She loved and still does to this day. She often tells me, when I call her from time to time to see how she is doing, she tells me, "Everytime I look at my computer I think of you." So I have had two different reactions to the same situation. Perhaps the Vlad ladies think different than the Moscow ones?

Peewee

[PeeWee]

PS As for me at your place I would be scared with too rational girls.

Hey guys,

Elen makes a good point here. I was in a serious (I thought) relationship with a RW for many months. From the beginning, I sent her flowers on ALL special days, and also every 5 or 6 weeks if there were no special ocassions that ordinarily called for flowers. After about 6 or 7 months, guess what, she says to me . . .

"Flowers are beautiful, but only for about 1 week. Then, they die. You spend so very much money on flowers for me. They are not necessary. You can send to me the money instead."

When I heard this, at first, I thought like a good ole' Western man. . . . "Oh, fantastic! She is a very rational girl, and just wants to not waste money on things that die quickly." I thought this, even though I had always known what a HUGE role flowers play in the life of a RW.

Fast forward another 5 months. Eventually (it's a long story), I learned that she was just using me for money, gifts, and other things that elevated her lifestyle. I awarded her an Oscar for acting the part of a girlfriend for a year, and then got on the plane to return home.

While I was always fully cognizant of the absolutely HUGE importance of gift-giving in Russian culture (good gifts, that is), I will now also keep a wary eye out for the "practical" Russian woman during any phase of a romantic courtship.

Thanks again to Elen for raising that point.

Journeyman[/quote]
I have this happen too. The first flowers I sent to Moscow I got a note back from the florist telling me that she had asked for the money instead of the flowers. She was uning the same logic. I was offended but after I time saw the logic and quit sending flowers but I did  not send money either. There was a time period when I took a break from the relationship for a while. In the meantime met the Vlad gal and another woman who was a flight attendant living in Moscow. I did send some flowers to the flight attendant but she later told me, "I love flowers but I am seldom her to enjoy them so don't waste money."

One other story. Yesterday my son met a nice looking woman in a cafe. He asked her if she would meet him after her work, she agreed. He got a little boquet of roses and when he met her he presented them to her. He said the look on her face on seeing the flowers could no be decribed. She was floored. To add to that, she is a young 20 something age, she told him that she had never received flowers before.

It is strange with the flowers. My lady could careless if she gets a dozen reds or 11. She does not believe in that wives tale. And while she asked for the money on the first occasion I have seen her take a boquet that I have given her here in the US and pack them back on the plane with her to Moscow. It's hard to figure.

PeeWee

[PeeWee]

That is a challenge. The daughter's father is a very rich man and will get whatever she wants from him. Too bad about the flowers and that the child didn't care. Seems she is quite westernized already with the video games, and a father who gives her everything. She is probably thinking, what could you possibly give that she doesn't already have.

It is hard to say what the daugher is thinking. I recall that one time I was having lunch with the daughter, she was about 11 at the time. She was telling me about her mother's former boyfriend, whom she did not like. I asked her why she did  not like him, to which she said, "He did not bring me any gifts." He ignored her I think is what she was trying to tell me. I recall thinking that the gifts are crutial to building a relationship with the daugher because the daughter's opinion will have some bearing on the mother's thought process.

I don't even try to compete with the rich father. I've lasted 3 years and he is not where to be found, except when it comes time to get the gifts to his daughter. So I must be doing something right.

PeeWee

[Elen]

She often tells me, when I call her from time to time to see how she is doing, she tells me, "Everytime I look at my computer I think of you." So I have had two different reactions to the same situation. Perhaps the Vlad ladies think different than the Moscow ones?

 May be. And may be it's only me. But I always prefer to be at another side and present used things ( like ocasion gifts) but not to get them. I can't help myself and get rid about guilty for my inability to thank enough effusively because each time I got a inferiority complex in comlect with used gift. Not plesant feeling I'd say you.

I can take such things only from my VERY close friends who I know TOO well. Though I can't recall when it happened last time. Mostly it was goods for our kid when we both were students (like used bycicles or good import shoes which were deficit in Soviet times and kids grew faster than shoes became old)

So that. Take it like you want.  I do guess that you prefer to deal with more thankful girls I'm not such kind. Sorry

 

I would say a computer might be an exception, that is utilitarian, like a telephone, and you could carefully give it with another new gift, saying, 'I was considering giving this laptop to my friend Igor, but I thought you might like it. We can use it to exchange emails!

Agree! If see used comp like utilitarian but not like a GIFT it's OK with used one.

 

'

[Elen]

It is hard to say what the daugher is thinking. I recall that one time I was having lunch with the daughter, she was about 11 at the time. She was telling me about her mother's former boyfriend, whom she did not like. I asked her why she did  not like him, to which she said, "He did not bring me any gifts.

Well I was different from my bith   My mom tryed to marry second time too and had very hard time with me as I had not any wish to be '"warm" with her boyfriens and refused to take ANY gift from them  and wished only one thing - let they leave my in a peace and don't try to "buy" me with gifts.

[PeeWee]

It is hard to say what the daugher is thinking. I recall that one time I was having lunch with the daughter, she was about 11 at the time. She was telling me about her mother's former boyfriend, whom she did not like. I asked her why she did  not like him, to which she said, "He did not bring me any gifts.

Well I was different from my bith   My mom tryed to marry second time too and had very hard time with me as I had not any wish to be '"warm" with her boyfriens and refused to take ANY gift from them  and wished only one thing - let they leave my in a peace and don't try to "buy" me with gifts. [/quote]
Each child is different about this. My son was 5 years before he was "warm" with his mother's later to be husband. She did not marry him until she felt that my son was "warm" with her boyfriend. Needless to say, the children play an important role in the decission making process in many cases. I am always trying to be aware of what it is that I am doing with regard to the child and with the parents of the woman that I am envolved with. All of them have an opinion.

PeeWee

[Photo Guy]

It's important for you to have a good relationship with her daughter, so the question is how to do it. Maybe you could spend time alone with her, go to the Zoo or something. I don't know if you have time for that. How is her English?

[PeeWee]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

It's important for you to have a good relationship with her daughter, so the question is how to do it. Maybe you could spend time alone with her, go to the Zoo or something. I don't know if you have time for that. How is her English?

I did have a chance to spend the day with the daughter. Her mother left her with me for a day while she was on a business trip to California. The childs English is excellent. She even has alot of the slang internalized as well. The other day she was sick she was telling me that she "puked". That, to me, although crude, shows a good command of the language. I asked her how many variations of puke she knew. She knew vomit and puke. I added barf to her lineup and she was good to go.

I did not spend more than a few minutes with the daughter on this past trip to Moscow. She was either sleeping or sick or did not want to sightsee with us because she had seen it all before. I talk to her on the phone from time to time but that is about it.

PeeWee