Jealousy

[digger]

after months of correspondence I met Elena in Peters last summer. she  expressed the strongest expressions of affections in her emails, phone  calls and sms's. We went to Marmaris in Turkey for a joint holiday. The  day we went on a Jeep safari  where Elena came in contact   with  other people.  that is where I discovered aspects of  Elenas character that I never thought of before.
Oh I did not mention before I go on, that there is a 25 years age difference she being 25 years old.
she started to flirt with young men on the safari. my jelousy was  aroused and I tried very hard to contain the terrible feelings she  aroused. I gently reminded her that she must not forget that I exist !  she did not stop . I meanwhile stopped talking with her.
when we were alone in the apartmnet I blew up like a volcanoe. My eyes  flashed with red hot anger. I did not abuse or insult but I showed her  that she overstepped the mark.
Her reaction was not repentent , nor apologic nor in any way trying to  understand the problem and think of solutions. Days later she cut our  holiday short and we both returned to Peter. she stopped talking to me.  I blamed myself for losing her but I find it insensetive to step on my  feelings the way she did and the big and obvious lie that she was in  love with me. I knew it was a lie but find it difficult to accept the  humiliation of flirting in such a brazen manner.

[KenC]

Digger,

Her behavior was inappropriate and you are better off without her.  She obviously used you for a free vacation.  Sorry.  Move on.

KenC

[Jet]

I concur with KenC 100%. Apparently, Marmaris is a favorite spot for younger single russian girls to go looking for a summer fling/romance. My wife knows several women from her home town who went on a manhunt this past summer there .

[Albert]

Digger, first let's address the issue of the 'joint' holiday that you spent with this gal.  I thought this was rather strange wording.  But anyway, I just hope that your 'joint' did get some holiday cheer.

Second, it is generally not a good idea to take a gal on one of these vacation trips as your first meeting.  Much better to meet gals in their home cities and weed through to find those that seem sincere in person, etc.  If you go straight for the nice vacation for them route, you are increasing geometrically your chances of ending up with exactly the type of gal you found.

Third, all of us who mess around with substantially younger women are running a real chance of getting our feelings hurt at some point in just such a manner as happened to you.  So you must factor this in before you set your age parameters and ask yourself . . . is it worth it or not.

Fourth, the age difference issue has differing outcomes based on the 'absolute' age of the woman.  Women under 35 are simply too young for a guy over 50 to be messing around with . . . . in most cases.  Sure there are exceptions and guys right here on this board who have proven that they can make such a relationship work . . . but the odds are against it.  On the other hand, a gal of age 35 can be a good match for a 60 year old guy, despite fact that it is still a 25 year gap.  The 35 y.o. simply is mature enough to handle it.  Most 25 y.o. women are not mature enough to handle a 25 year gap. 

[andrewfi]

I was not there, but something to remember is this:

A youg woman wil find it much easier to relate to people of her own age. She may want to be with you, but you arean old man (to her) you do not share the same language, sense of humour (becasue of the language) or cultural references. Simply, it is much easier for her to relate to her peers than to you and so you see something that may well not have been there.

I am just finishing being a student at a Finnish university, for five years most of my friends and colleagues have been men and women of half my age, or less and in almost all cases, with different native languages. I worked hard to fit, I learned the rules and things worked very well - I would not change the time for any amount of money. But - I saw the same things as you, except that I did not give it the same interpretation as you, because usually, I was, usually, not in lust with these people and I also shared some language and background.

Simply put mate, you just did not fit in. You got a little taster of what life with a person half your age is like. It is hard work, there will be times when you feel out of place - and of course, she will feel just the same in respect of your real peers. She will feel  jealous, left out, unwanted. No matter how you try, it will happen. All you can ever hope for is that between you, you can overcome these issues.

Next time, do not go on holiday to a new place with a much younger woman. If you are dead set on chasing young girls then first of all build a relationship so that you have something to share, then, and only then expose yourself to the real world, where there is competition for your attention. Best of all, find a woman where you can have an age appropriate relationship. Chasing young girls is like eating Chinese food. After a short time you want another one, they never fully satisfy and you end up feeling bad.

Stick to steak and fries, always satisfies, always tastes good and it sticks to the ribs!

[al-c]

I remember something Elena Petrova wrote, just because it is so profound.  I don't have the exact quote, so I will paraphrase.  It went something like this:

So you are 50 and want to marry one of those beautiful creatures who are 25.   What did you do when you were 25?  Did you watch TV and go to bed at 11, like you do now, or did you go to the nightclub until 4 A.M?  What makes you think your 25 year old Russian wife is gong to be content watching TV and going to bed at 11?  Are you prepared to start going to nightclubs again until 4 A.M. to please your new Russian wife?  Or are you better off with someone closer to your own age?

That passage really got me thinking.  I still corresponded with 25 year old women, but to actually go there to meet one is something I am not likely to do.  The last one who wrote to me wanted to meet me in a ski resort in the Ural Mountains (can you spell "free ski vacation"?).  When she could not get me to grab the bait, she stopped writing.

 

[Michelangelo]

I have made 5 or 6 of these "joint" trips with girls in their 20s.  Every single one of them gave me their total attention and NEVER flirted with someone else.  I think you were wise to move on...this gal disrespected you with her actions.

However, you likely should have held off with your anger until later and enjoyed the "fruits" of your trip a little longer before blowing your top ...

[andrewfi]

Frankly, I would not mind betting that very little 'flirting' went on. Just young people chatting in a language that was not understood by one of the parties. I used to find that, here, sometimes I was not involved in a conversation and I wondered what was actually happening. Body language and tone of voice can be very misleading. With a little language, not even enough to jointhe conversation, one soon learns that things are much more innocent than the nervous foreigner might think.

But...

Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face - very silly of her. If t'were I on that holiday, I am sure I would have stayed schtum and enjoyed the holiday, even if I downgraded my future plans.

But...

I am sure the guys were asking the girl 'WTF are you doing with the old fart!' She may well have been defending you and her choice, you would have known nothing.

Most of the time, old guys should avoid young girls. Carrying it off requires a degree of self confidence that few possess.

[Chef!]

what about a 23 y.o. or a 28 y.o. and a 39 y.o.?

[KenC]

[user=545]Chef![/user] wrote:

what about a 23 y.o. or a 28 y.o. and a 39 y.o.?

I assume that you are the 39 yo?  Just for the record, which one speaks English?  To answer your question, it all depends.  Seriously, you should have no problem with the 28 yo and with the 23yo it all depends upon her maturity level.  And your maturity level for that matter!

KenC

[KenC]

I was not there, but something to remember is this:

A youg woman wil find it much easier to relate to people of her own age. She may want to be with you, but you arean old man (to her) you do not share the same language, sense of humour (becasue of the language) or cultural references. Simply, it is much easier for her to relate to her peers than to you and so you see something that may well not have been there.

I am just finishing being a student at a Finnish university, for five years most of my friends and colleagues have been men and women of half my age, or less and in almost all cases, with different native languages. I worked hard to fit, I learned the rules and things worked very well - I would not change the time for any amount of money. But - I saw the same things as you, except that I did not give it the same interpretation as you, because usually, I was, usually, not in lust with these people and I also shared some language and background.

Simply put mate, you just did not fit in. You got a little taster of what life with a person half your age is like. It is hard work, there will be times when you feel out of place - and of course, she will feel just the same in respect of your real peers. She will feel  jealous, left out, unwanted. No matter how you try, it will happen. All you can ever hope for is that between you, you can overcome these issues.

Next time, do not go on holiday to a new place with a much younger woman. If you are dead set on chasing young girls then first of all build a relationship so that you have something to share, then, and only then expose yourself to the real world, where there is competition for your attention. Best of all, find a woman where you can have an age appropriate relationship. Chasing young girls is like eating Chinese food. After a short time you want another one, they never fully satisfy and you end up feeling bad.

Stick to steak and fries, always satisfies, always tastes good and it sticks to the ribs!

Pretty sound advice over all, Andrew.  I would just like to comment about "fitting in" to the two different age groups.  Lena and I have always felt more comfortable with groups closer to my age group.  In spite of some obvious daggers from some older wives, Lena usually was able to win them over.  Most of the friends that Lena has made here in the States are 10+years her senior as she finds most people in her age group to be immature.

When the man is significantly older than his wife, he had better have thicker skin than the usual guy.  There will always be some younger buck that thinks he can steal your woman away.  Plan on it.  Be prepared to deal with sometimes brazen flirtation right before your own eyes (and behind your back too).  That is a given especially if your young woman is attractive.  How she handles it will tell all.  It is never appropriate for her to flirt with any other man, younger, older or the same age.

KenC

[Chef!]

the 28 y.o. s[peaks fluent english.  As far as maturity, that remains to be seen.  That's one thing that I need to be face to face to really get an accurate evaluation.  I can tell a difference between the two, but when i meet them, I will have a better idea. As far as my maturity, I go by a saying by a hugely famous person.  "when you work, you work hard, when you play, you play hard! My variation:  when you work, you work hard... when you play, you play harder!!  That famous person is my Dad!:-) Anyways, I am very mature but to me, age is but a number.  If you live and feel young, you will be.  So many 30 somethings I know get to that certain age and feel as life has to become completely boring and no longer fun.  They say it's not mature or I've outgrown that... BS!!!  You have one life and why not make the most of it.  Being older means to be more responsible and aware, doing the right thing and thinks things through more carefully... but when it comes to enjoying yourself, go do it!  I mean I still listen to the same music as I did in high school, new wave, gothic, and punk... but you can add classical, jazz, big band to that list of favorites.  I still go to certain clubs and bars, and I go play paintball, sky dive or scuba dive when I get a chance!  But on the flip side, I have a degree, I am a chef, I own a catering company,  I currently am contracted out in a position overseas... and I'm about to start another venture that I've been thinking about for 9 months in the country I'm working in, so... I think I qualify as mature, but I still feed the kid inside!  And, since i live this way, and an asian, I look ten years younger!! hehehe!;-)

[Voyageur]

Sometimes this jealousy thing can surprise you. On Friday  nights, my wife and I usually go to a local establishment to meet friends and listen  to music. I usually have a beer or two also, then we leave for home around 9:00  PM.  Sometimes my wife dances with a  friend's girlfriend.  She enjoys it and  she is a very good, trained dancer. Since she is a relatively new person to the  US  and cannot drive on her own yet, I know that she enjoys to get out of the house  and speak to other people.
       
      She usually gets stares and requests to dance from others in  the bar, but always smiles and ignores any advances from other men. She returns  to me and makes it very clear that she is with me, by holding my hand and even  kissing me.  I have never been with such  a beautiful women, my ex-wife was ordinary to very plain looking. And believe  me, this has taken some "re-education" on my part. And the stares are not only  in the bar, but in the Supermarket, clothes stores and everywhere else we go.
       
      But this Friday was different. Everything was OK and usual.  When we were leaving the bar, a "regular" saw my wife and gave her a leer, it  was really unpleasant and insulting to her.   He said something to her as she was leaving - we both could not hear  what it was - but I suddenly got very angry and made a move towards him and his  friend. The man did not notice me until I started to move toward him, with  definitely bad intentions. My wife saw this and started to push me out the  door, the man saw my anger and started to shake his head "no".  I relaxed and let my wife push me out the  door.
       
      This incident really alarmed me. I am not a person to get  angry so suddenly. I understand and accept that my wife will get stares and  will receive advances. Afterwards, she told me many times that she had done  nothing to prompt this attention and of course I knew this and I believed her.  She has never tried to make me jealous, in  any circumstance. I also knew that it will be very bad to have this behavior  become typical.  And it cannot be so.  We discussed my reaction afterwards and tried  to understand why it was so. Really, my anger did not come from any slight  towards me, but on my anger after seeing some blatant,undeserved lascivious attention  directed to my wife.
       
      I am posting this because you must become thick skinned from  others around you.  The obvious advise  would be to stay away from bars - but really, it happens everywhere -n gas  stations, stores, etc..  It is another sort  of unexpected item to consider when she arrives in America. Because, really, the women  in the FSU mostly take care of themselves and take pride in their appearance  and when you are with them in their native country, they do not stand out in  the crowd as much as in America.

[Albert]

[user=250]Voyageur[/user], very good post.  Your post points out that, as always,  the women can control everything in these situations.  By coming to you, holding your hand and kissing you, your woman sends messages to everyone, including yourself.  Another woman could screw up this situation by just coming to sit beside you, ignore you, take a drink, look toward the other guys, etc.  Just slight behavioral changes by the woman can make these situations tolerable or turn them into nasty scenes and ruin the marriage or relationship.

I have never really encountered such situations because I have only been, on a lengthy basis, with women who are 7s and 8s (in the face that is).  It is good that I am mainly a 'body' guy rather than a 'face' guy.  Most other guys seem to not notice the slender bodies that I cherish, as much as they do the gorgeous faces of other women.  Of course I also never frequent bars, etc., where more serious trouble is always waiting to brew.  If guys are eyeing my slender gals during intermission at the ballet, etc., they can do it much more surripetiously (spelling) and they are unlikley to approach to ask for a dance, etc.  :-))

[BC]

Here in IT we just ignore, laugh and move on.. they turn heads, whistle a tune or maybe jiggle their jewels as most Italians do. Nothing really nasty but might be considered as such in the PC US..

Waste time and knuckles on a drunk? naa..  If it really gets that bad then just tell your wife what you would like to do if you were alone with him and move on. She'll understand.

BTW from what I have seen, some RW's have a lot of experience disarming these situations..  My petite 120lb wifey pushed me aside and stood up to a drunk 6ft5, 250lb monster on the street in Ukraine that was hassling us and give him the riot act.. I just stood by holding our heavy camera by the strap, ready to swing if things got out of hand.

[KenC]

[user=250]Voyageur[/user],[/b]

Thanks for sharing your experience.  That is exactly what I meant when I said we need to have thicker skin.  AM just cannot sometimes handle the beauty of a RW.  We have had many experiences with this over the last 61/2 years.  Guys have taken out end cap displays in grocery stores while in a trance looking at my wife.  Sometimes it is funny too.  Like when the gawker gets busted by his own wife/gf for staring.  Other times it is uncomfortable and rude.  My favorite story on this subject:

Lena and I were enjoying a late Sunday breakfast with another couple and their children.  All during our meal, a man a few tables away could not stop staring at Lena.  Mind you, he was with his wife and children too.  He made no attempt to be subtle with his constant stare.  It was to a point of making Lena very uncomfortable.  After we were finished and leaving the restaurant, the guy's stare followed Lena's every move toward the exit.  Finally, I had enough!  I walked up to the table where the guy and his family were eating and asked him if he would like the photo of my wife that I kept in my wallet.  He looked at me stunned and embarrassed.  I continued to say that we were leaving and that since he had not been able to keep his eyes off of my wife all during our meal, it would be the least I could do for him.  How he explained that to his wife and kids, I'll never know, because I just turned and left after he declined the photo.

KenC

[MandM]

KenC, that's funny!:D

What pisses me off is that every dirty builder I meet seems to think I need his opinion to validate my looks. I get whistling, hooting, 'hello sexy' comments and such. It was quite funny to start with, but it makes me cringe now. And it is always the same kind of people who do that. When my sister was visiting, she had a guy in a car following her for 15 minutes,  and asking to give him her phone number, despite her telling him NO a hundred times.

I tell ya, its so refreshing to go to Russia and remain unnoticed for a couple of weeks!

[KenC]

M and M,

I take it that "dirty builder" is your words for construction worker?  If that is the case, you must understand that it is a given that construction workers will whistle at women passing by.  I think it is part of their requirement to get a union card!:cool:

KenC

[Aleksia]

Well, I do not think that big age different always lead to problems. It depends on how do you feel inside? Do you feel on 50 or on 30? And what kind of woman beside you. But again, frankly speaking, 25 years difference in age is a bit too much. Not to tell more.

I am very suspicious to the women who, let's say , 20-23 years old and looking for man till 50-60 years old. First scammer's flag.

By my opinion, a woman was not interested in you, she preferred to flirt with others. This is the problem when a first meeting is on some resort. You are beginning to think - if a woman is interested in you, or in a free vacation. I, personally, do not believe in sincere intentions of a woman who is suggesting meeting first time in Turkey, Cyprus or any other, resort place.

[Maxx]

So what do you think of my "movie star maturity test"?

Watch some movies with your prospective lady. Find out which leading men catch her eye. The pretty boy types or the more mature leading men.

I found out from my ex's aquantances after she got here that she had quote: "The maturity of a teenager". I noticed also she had plenty of grins for Keanu Reeves, Tom Cruise and the young Travolta while she watched them on TV in a state of a trance. Like the guy in Ken's story. I noticed alot when my eyes became open. 

Maxx   

[KenC]

Maxx,

I don't know how valid your test would be.  Lena is very attracted to Sean Connery but also Keanu Reeves.  In general though, she is not attracted to "pretty boys" and doesn't see the appeal for Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt.  (Just FYI, Tom Cruise is now 40 too.)  Lena had had a relationship with a successful male model while in Russia before we met.  He was a great looking guy (obviously) with a perfect body and loaded.  He treated her like a queen too.  She dumped him because he was too vain.  Go figure.

KenC

[Oosik]

A little jealousy is a good thing. I believe it, and so do the few RW/UW that I have met.

I wouldn't be suprised if voyageur got extra sweet lovin' that night because he showed his lady that she is worth fighting for. The RW I've met think a man should be a little jealous just for that reason. Personally, I like when a woman is a little (not boiling rabbit) jealous of other women's attention. It does show caring.

I hope you didn't get too wishy washy apologizing for your reaction. The dude, knew he crossed the line, and if you hadn't been the man about it with him, he would have maybe gone further in the future, or someone who saw it.