Ladies and their jobs

[SMS60]

Hopefully this will be the right place to post this question? The guys can give there opinions from their experience.

Everything has been going smooth with the RW who will bw coming to the US once the Fiance Visa is approved.  Petition still needs to arrive at the Embassy from the Department of State or NVC. Maybe 2 months.

I have a question concerning women and their jobs in Moscow. My fiance seems to be "nervous" about telling her employer she is leaving. She is having a hard time trying to figure out how and when to do it.

Of course being from the states I dont see this as a big deal. Give your 2 week notice or just not show up the next day and get on with your life. But I feel it is different in Russia. I don't pry and give opinions but I can tell it worries her. She will make the right decision.

I think with her personality she feels she is letting them down.They give her a salary to live and she feels bad about leaving them for what they did for her. I think she feels "obligated".

I have learned a lot about the culture in Russia. I'm very tuned in to most of it. But not with this. I know they recieve salaries months apart. Is there more to it than just leaving your job for a women? If you leave at the wrong time will you lose your salary? Does something go on your record?

This really confuses me. But I'm from a different culture. She will leave the job but I dont like the affect it is having on her.

Ladies what is it like to work in Moscow? Especially in the office envoriment? Maybe with a self centered boss? What is she worried about?

Thanks for any responses.

[groovlstk]

Don't know if your fiancee has told you this, but it's not uncommon for Russian employers to withhold salary from workers who depart. My wife agonized about this for weeks after we filed our K1. She was upfront w/her employer and they eventually paid her everything owed, but until the moment she had the $ in her hands just before her visa arrived, the matter was in doubt.

Many Russian firms pay their employees what we'd consider "off the books." They have an official salary which is reported to the govt. and taxed appropriately (the reported figure is extremely low). Their real salaries are much higher. This is arguably great for the workers but like so much else in Russian firms, puts more power in the hands of the employer. If my wife had not been paid the $ owed to her and decided to pursue the matter officially, as far as the govt. is concerned her reported salary was so low that even if they were able to force her employer to pay up, the amount would have been a mere fraction of what she was owed. This is common practice and many workers delay quitting until the day they receive their pay to avoid getting screwed. 

[SMS60]

Yes Groov

I have gathered from conversations most of the things you mentioned. I " in a very weak voice" suggest she quits the day after she recieves a salary. Then she goes into deep thought. .

I think she is afraid if she quits too soon and not recieve the visa she will be out of a job. I understand this. I guess a smart lady will always try and have an option to return to the job if she returns to her homeland.

It just seems there is some formality to quiting your job in Russia....... just from my observations.......... Its not close to the same as in the US.

[I/O]

SMS60: There will be a whole range of things going on here and probably not least of all, she knows fairly well the moment she announces her intentions, most likely she will receive a DCM (Don't come Monday) and with salaries paid a month in arrears or more she may or may not receive what's owing.

You recall the stigmatisation which can be directed at western men chasing the so called MOB scene? To some, perhaps a large extent, the exact same thing occurs with Russian Women who marry abroad, at least in the lead up stages. She is a way off receiving her visa, if it is approved at all so nothing is certain for her at this time. At the risk of losing her job / salary for a possible non event she would be better off saying nothing until everything is set in concrete.

In many workplaces in Russia, entitlements or accruals are paid very much at the bosses discretion, all too often that discretion will be influenced by how well or how often she puts out for him. This is perhaps not as uniform as it once was but it is still very much a reality of life in the workplace for many Russian Women.

I sense you are keen to hear she has given notice and perhaps you see it as another assurance she is committed to the process the two of you have embarked upon. My advice is to back off. You pushing, even in a subtle way isn't going to sure up your relationship, nor is it going to speed up the process by 1 second. You would be both smart to say and do nothing until the entire process is set in stone. Short of visa approval you have hopes, nothing more.

I/O 

[SMS60]

Thanks I/O for the advice and opinions

But I must respond to your misguided opinions.

If all I have is "hope" with this lady I choose the wrong one. The same with the immigration process. You do your homework theres not much to worry about.

The comment about favors for the boss. I'm sure it happens. If you have the right women you dont worry about it.

You think I'm niave for some reason. Maybe because of my simple questions? Just because I dont have thousands of post on this forum does not mean I'm green behind the ears.

Pushy? how did you come to that conclusion? :noidea: I'm the leader. " The natural order of things" I dont need to push for her to follow.

I had to try out the smileys

carry on

[Shadow]

There are a number of factors coming in to play here. For you it may be natural. but when she starts to prepare to quit her job and pack what she needs, it is a sensation of 'this is real' that will hit her and cause some nerves. It can cause all kind of things, up to doubts if she is doing the right thing. If you have a strong bond and can reassure her this will pass, but expect her to have some nerves and doubts now and then.

In Russia people have something which is known as a work book in which their employers register the work they did and put a remark. If the work book will not be signed off from her employer this will not be a good thing should she need to come back to work in Russia in the future. And yes, she will worry about that.
Mrs Shadow also has a short fight with her employer when she gave her notice, even when it was her direct boss who encouraged her to put het profile up and look for a foreign man. She was lucky that it aonly lasted a short time, and she got the promise that if she would return back within 3 months she could get her old job back. But not many employers will react this way.

[Blues Fairy]

My employer was very decent in paying all the dues.  I had three weeks of unused vacation time and got approval for them first, with appropriate advance notice.  Then upon approval, I gave the notice about my intent to quit and asked the HR to combine the paperwork as "vacation with subsequent dismissal".  

Is your fiancee's employer in compliance with the work code (КЗоТ), i.e. paying white salaries and all the taxes as required by law?  If so, I don't see why worry.  Just make sure to follow the rules, give advance notice, transfer duties etc.  It might be a good idea, when announcing departure, to ask the boss and colleagues as to the manner and timeframe of transfer of responsibilities they will expect from her.  

There's no reason to feel more obligated to the employer than what is strictly required by law.  She is not receiving any undeserved favors by working and being paid her salary.  Tell her not to fall for any harassment or guilt trips her company may try to pull on her.  She must know her rights.

[groovlstk]

sms60, I/O can surely defend himself, but if you hang around here long enough you'll come to treasure the fact that the other married guys do not sugarcoat anything and will speak plainly to you. I don't know about you, but when I was in courtship phase and before my wife arrived, most immediate people in my life either blew smoke up my butt and could talk only about sunshine and platitudes, while others could never understand the obstacles my wife and I were facing. RWD is a place you can turn to for honest opinions from men and women who have went through much of what you and your fiancee are experiencing. You will be hard-pressed to find that combination of experience and honesty anywhere else, coupled with a genuine desire that you find success.

[SMS60]

Groov

I understand what I/O was trying to convey and he is correct.

My beef was my question did not relate to a major relationship problem. I'm trying to understand the work ethics and morals in Russia.

Yes BF I think she is on the legal side. Her pay goes on a debit type card issued by the company.

Shadow , She has talked about the employee book before. You answered one of my questions. The book could show bad things if she tried to find another job in Moscow. I assume previuos employers sign off on it when the employee leaves or quits?

I'm starting to see why she is worrying.

[Diplomacy]

It is just natural for the woman to worry about employment, especially when it is often hard to put a war chest together to get through the tough times.  Try to think of it from the other side.  What is the commitment other than a 90 day trial in the United States?  The reality is that the men hold the better jobs very often, and are less qualified then women in the same company.

Plenty of women have rolled the dice and came home with nothing.  Hard to imagine coming back to nothing right?  Sure you can say, I did it once I can do it again in America.  Russia is a different culture and I do not want to start any rumors.  They are known to hold a grudge.

If I was a FSU man and a lady left for a WM.  I am pretty sure that I would not feel so good about myself, and in their culture they can do something about it.  I have heard time after time in Ukraine how WM steal the good women.  I had 2 strikes against me any time I was dealing with a UM.  Sure I won a lot of them over after they got to know me.  Reality and a different normal.  I mean they had to admit it was pretty clever having the MIL 6,000 miles away.  That they would drink to lol.

[mendeleyev]

I understand, having cost my wife a job because of the change in her internal passport after ZAGS.  It was in the era when she was still trying to make a name as an artist and was doing product design for various advertising campaigns at a publishing house.  Each evening it was my practice to swing by her work and wait for about an hour until she was off.  One day not long after we had married she came out into the reception area and invited me back inside the large complex and we make our way into her employer's office. 

He wanted to see her American man and asked how it felt to marry a RW?  I knew he was baiting me, but I also understood that he had power in that job book so I offered some compliments about his fine facility (leaving out the multiple rotary single line dial phones on his desk, the old style memograph machines I hadn't seen since the 1960s, the old 1970s printing presses, the Commodore style computers, etc) and spoke about great admiration of what he achieved in publishing.  I was hoping it would work.

A week or so later she was crying and unemployed. He shorted her pay. But she was good at her craft and it wasn't long before she was working again. 

 

[Vaughn]

My wife was a schoolteacher and had the luxury of finishing out the school year - and then pulling the
plug during summer break. It was 2002, and no one knew that the American Embassy would soon
begin to delay visa issuance after a successful interview, a post-911 procedural change resulting in
additional backround checks.

The delay left my wife in a state of worry and second guessing. The school year began without her,
and we were forced to wait on bureaucracy to render the visa. There was some predictable jealousy
and downright cynicism, but her family and best friends offered emotional support.

This uncertain period swayed me without question into flying over when the visa came through, and
accompanying her to the USA myself. Her quitting, waiting, then departing - all comprised such a leap
of faith that I saw no other way than to be there to help her wave goodbye.

Given the excellent observations upthread, I would advise your lady seriously consider holding off the
notice until you both have decided an appropriate departure date - after all, you have 6 full months to
exercise her K-1 visa. 

[GoodOlBoy]

....A week or so later she was crying and unemployed. He shorted her pay.....

After this, I would find out where this Jacka** parks his car, slip on a Black Balaclava and make him my "suka" one night (not sexually of course). 

[Lily]

Of course being from the states I dont see this as a big deal. Give your 2 week notice or just not show up the next day and get on with your life. 

Yes, this is exaclty how it should function in Russia as well.

About her feeling obligated is rather another cup of tea. This depends on individualities, both of hers and of her colleagues and supervisors. In Moscow there is a huge variety of offices, and office cultures. Labor laws are all the same, however. If some employers do not want to comply, then there is a problem. Being informed on her rights helps, of course.

[UTRO]

Geez SMS60, don't get so defensive Kid You asked for advice and you've been given it. Smile and thank everyone instead of getting your tail up! We can all detect and understand that you are aware of Russian 'culture' etc... but lets put it in this perspective....
You aren't the one giving up your career.
You aren't the one leaving everything and everyone she knows.
You aren't the one leaving family 7000 km behind.
You aren't the one who now has to get used to another way of life, culture and language.
You aren't the one relying 100% on another human being to help her adjust to a new life and country.
You aren't the one who has to live with the consequences, if all isn't as it seems in Cappy Land!
This doesn't mean or reflect negatively on you SMS60. We all understand you and your Fiancee I can tell that you are doing all that you can for her. She's nervous and might have cold feet. This is normal
She loves you and trusts you. This is why she agreed to be with you and not any other Western man
This is the only life she has ever known. Be patient, like we know you have been.
You're a smart guy, you'll figure something out!

[BC]

This is one of those 'honey dew' things..

Honey, you just do what you think is best and I'll be there to back you up whatever happens.

I can only echo what others have already said here and am also a bit puzzled by the defensive posture.

Maybe the relationship needs some time.  You went to FSU the first time in September or so?

[I/O]

But I must respond to your misguided opinions.

I'd suggest if you want to survive with a RW for any length of time, you'd do well to drop the defensive position. It'll become much more blunt and confrontational once you are on the same patch of ground permanently.

Groov

I understand what I/O was trying to convey and he is correct.

My beef was my question did not relate to a major relationship problem. I'm trying to understand the work ethics and morals in Russia.

You've apparently quite a bit of territory to cover before realising your dream . Nobody suggested anything about relationship problems, but seeing as you did, if they exist, you'd better get them fixed before honey arrives "to your door" because it'll become a whole lot harder then. The point you seemed to miss was and is, for the most part, there is still very few governing morals or ethics in many workplaces in Russia. Exiting the workplace with her integrity, accruals and entitlements intact is likely to be a maze for her to navigate carefully. Best to let her deal with it in her own way and own time.

Frankly, I think job quiting should be the last thing on either of your minds at this stage. Wait till she starts throwing up the "What if" questions...........................all that is in front of you yet .

I/O

[SMS60]

Members thanks for the advice.

BC, my first time was the end of July. I went back in October and will be making another trip in a couple of weeks.

When she brought this up my thoughts were to have her do what she thinks is right and I stay out of it. I think this is the right decision.

But it also got me curious about the workplace in the FSU. So I ask the general question on this forum. So be it.

For what its worth. I did some searching and came across a forum ( I had to translate it to english) of women from the FSU who are in the process of immigrating to a foriegn country. They actually had one topic of the forum for discussion of leaving their jobs. It was interesting. My gut instinct was correct.

I/O, I might seem defensive to you but your personality comes across as a "doom and gloom" (negative) type. I'm on the positive side, so we have different personalities. I'm defensive when someone is negative, I have no use for it.

We are just different.

Peace

[UTRO]

I'm kinda' curious about Sveta's employer and how they'll treat her when she tells them she'll be leaving, in 'hopefully' late 2009.
Fortunately she works for Russia's main cellular provider and they most likely have a very set policy in place. With all the doom and gloom of the global economic crisis and clients of hers dropping like flies, she won't be too sad to see the door close behind her anyway

[I/O]

my first time was the end of July.

The last of the long term relationships........................

your personality comes across as a "doom and gloom" (negative) type.

You'll seldom find me among the cheer squads for guys following this path and so long as there is guys who desire their daily dose of smoke blown up their bums, it'll stay that way. JUST FYI, I've knocked around Russia and the FSU for a few years now, I wake up each morning with a RW, have been and done what you are dreaming of. There is nothing negative about a taste of reality. Get used to it, you have a whole life of it in front of you if you get through the process to the point of having honey "arrive to you". Don't expect honey to suger coat it.......

I/O

[SilverBUllet]

SMS60, Jobs are hard to come by in Russia and especially the good ones. She might be still uncertain about her future despite the Fiance Visa? She knows it will be difficult to land another job if she resigns. Depending on her job and role in the firm, she might fear a resignation will not be taken well? There are no laws and regulations in the workplace in Russia as you know them from the USA. WHat's not a big deal for you is a big deal for her. You just need to tell her that everything will be fine and you will take care of her. If she looses out on some of her final pay, I am sure you can easily make up for that and pay her the money instead. That is what I would have done. Good luck with the marriage. SB

[ECOCKS]

FWIW:

I would not expect her to quit or turn in notice until she holds the visa in hand.

Then all the things you see regarding letting her use her own judgement about givng her notice and picking up the last paycheck are applicable.  If her employer shorts her pay or summarily dismisses her then don't waste your time with blustering about lawyers or macho posturing.  Focus on the important thing, getting her to her new home and beginning to integrate her into your life and helping her build the most effective life she can.

[SilverBUllet]

ECOCKS, That was very good and dead-on advice. The lady needs to first have her fiance visa in her hands before leavign a job. A finance visa can be canelled by the man and could also be denied by US immigration. Couldn't agree more on that advise. It is very difficult to find jobs these days. SB