Child Support

[Aventurero]

I was just wondering if anyone has encountered this subject in the past...

If a child is born to a US Citizen in the FSU, what are the legal standards in determining the amount of child support if the father decides to leave the marriage, or even if the parents weren't married?':zappedhim:

[andrewfi]

Depends upon the country.

[Aventurero]

Well, that's a start.. Which countries are you familiar with?

[andrewfi]

Which country are you planning to live in?

The FSU comprises, off the top of my head, 16 countries, with very different standards of living and legal structures and enforcement procedures. It is the work of a moment to tell you, in very brief terms, the rules in a particular country. If you want the rules for all of them, it costs $150 per hour for my research time.

I am sure that you are not planning to choose your retirement home on the basis of how small your responsibility to your offspring is, are you?

[Aventurero]

Which country are you planning to live in?

The FSU comprises, off the top of my head, 16 countries, with very different standards of living and legal structures and enforcement procedures. It is the work of a moment to tell you, in very brief terms, the rules in a particular country. If you want the rules for all of them, it costs $150 per hour for my research time.

I am sure that you are not planning to choose your retirement home on the basis of how small your responsibility to your offspring is, are you?

:noidea:

You kill me....

That's a pretty good rate for research.. Nevertheless, child support is not normally based on the living standards of any particular country, but on the earnings of the parent. However, I am sure that the living standards are probably tied pretty closely to the earning potential of the father also. From my 'research' the USA is proably the most stringent on the enforcement of these laws and rules.

Also, from my 'research', a person, native to the FSU, can live on, and in some cases support a FAMILIY on as little as $150/mo, That alone, however, would not necessarily make a good argument for someone who is looking to get - say 17% (New York State) - of the fathers pre-tax income for child support. If that rule were applied to an American or other financially stable male who had the unfortunate opportunity of fathering a child out of wedlock in the FSU, the mother, child, and any subsequent siblings would probably have a very good standard of living for a number of years.

Also, the potential for 'hunting down' the father who would choose to ignore his moral/legal obligation would also seem somewhat problematic if he should choose to go off to another country.

The reason I ask, is because of the current availabilty of women who have children in the FSU and are looking for a mate. In spite of the fact that the fathers are of these children are local natives, it amazes me that so many are not paying child support.

[Bruno]

Well, that's a start.. Which countries are you familiar with?

Yep, Andrew is right... without more information, it is difficult to reply...

The first problem can be the nationality of the child... some country like France use the "ground law"... it mean that the child have the nationality from where he is birth... some other country like Belgium use the "genetic law"... it mean that the child have the nationality of the father...

Usually, each country use one of these system... If the child is with the nationality of the birth country, the law used are the local law... if the child have the US nationality and his located in foreign country, each case is different... several country have sign some protocol about international law but this change from one country to other... in some FSU country, they are other difficulty... several Muslim country use the coranic law... who give all the right to the father IF he is Muslim other, nothing...

Really, your question is very difficult and need more detail... and this before the question of child support, you need to thing over the birth of the child... where he is birth... If this have happen in foreign country, have you register his birth at the ambassy ( for make him a american citizen )... is the home/host country allowing the double nationality or not... is the home/host country obligate the child to choice a nationality at the majority ( 16, 18, 21 yo ??? )...

And about marriage, have you marry in USA or in FSU... is the marriage AND the pre-nup register in the other country...

Without more information, you will just stay wondering...

You wish that we speak over the top of a building without know how the fundation was make...

 

 

 

[Bruno]

Nevertheless, child support is not normally based on the living standards of any particular country, but on the earnings of the parent.

Not paying child support or very little is a speciality in Russia... i go explain the case of my ex-wife... she was married previously with a russian man... after the divorce, he have pay 200 ruble month for child support, it is really nothing...

First, he was with two work... a official where he earn very little and who was the basis for the child support... a second one not official where he earn very confortable...

Several people make like so in Russia... so they don't need pay big tax... and in case of divorce, they pay low child support... and if they don't pay, police don't hurry... law court have million of case waiting to be treated but they have law priority...

The lack of responsability from several russian ex-husband is one of the reason that some RW begin search a foreign man... don't say me that you wish become a russian husband

 

[Bruno]

The reason I ask, is because of the current availabilty of women who have children in the FSU and are looking for a mate. In spite of the fact that the fathers are of these children are local natives, it amazes me that so many are not paying child support.

My ex-wife, have find back her previous husband after 3 year of search... he was moved at the other side of country, Vladivostock... Familial affair is a big problem in FSU... by example, you have not DV system... some man hurt woman each day and police make nothing... they slowly begin act when she is hurt so much that she is send to hospital... and usually, this lead only to little amendes...

Child support stop when the woman life with a other man... since the registration, it is easy for the ex-man to know it... and since the difficult life in FSU, specialy for woman with child, these woman search very fast other man...

Now, about your case of RW with child, don't worry... no child support are needed in case of divorce... your are the step father, not the real father... due to the divorce, you loose all your responsability AND right on the child... it was the main problem of my divorce... i have grow up a little girl from his 3.5 yo until her 10 yo... but since the marriage mas make in Russia, some Russian law was used for the divorce... i was without visit right, ... it was like these wonderfull little girls have never exist... yes, i have nothing to pay... and i was ready to make it for the child, for see her... but it was not possible...

Don't fear for your money, fear for the hurt to your heart in case of divorce... if you have grow children, same if they are not from you, it hurt a lot when you cannot see them again...

[andrewfi]

In general terms forget local living standards. Responsibility is based upon income, just as it is in most jurisdictions.

It seems to me that your thoughts in respect of this process are somewhat arse about face.

Perhaps it might be worth finding a woman who you like, who likes you enough to live with you and who wants to share your twilight years in her country. I am sure there are some such women, but choosing on the basis of minimised liability for your potential procreational cockups is hardly the way to go, methinks.

If you marry a woman with a child, you are correct in surmising that your joint lifestyle will not likley be subsidised by the contributions of some local bloke.

[Aventurero]

In general terms[/u] forget local living standards. Responsibility is based upon income, just as it is in most jurisdictions.

It seems to me that your thoughts in respect of this process are somewhat arse about face.

Perhaps it might be worth finding a woman who you like, who likes you enough to live with you and who wants to share your twilight years in her country. I am sure there are some such women, but choosing on the basis of minimised liability for your potential procreational cockups is hardly the way to go, methinks.

If you marry a woman with a child, you are correct in surmising that your joint lifestyle will not likley be subsidised by the contributions of some local bloke.

I appologize if I failed to be specific about the situation. That said, there is never enough 'safety' in decisions since we don't know what the future will bring. Therefore, making an informed decision is probably the best way to go.

First of all, I have already found 'that woman' who would like to share the fall and winter of my life with me. The age gap is 25 years. Not that this is a MAJOR significant issue with me, since my last wife was 15 years younger. I appreciate youthful thought and have always tended to gravitate to a younger social circle.

Second, this forum is replete with entries from senior men marrying junior women. Many of which enter into this major investment with their eyes clouded by a pink fog of 'love', only to discover later that it wasn't what they [color=redthought][/color] it would be. I want to take a pragmatic approach to this endeavor, as does she. Clouding the issue with "LOVE" doesn't really achieve that. But, don't misunderstand me on this issue either. I believe the commonly held notion of physical attraction equating to love is very shallow. Love is not a noun, it is a verb. We will grow in this, and again, that is not intend to mean that we DON'T have love for one an other now. If you equate it to a pot of water on the stove, it's currently not at the boiling stage, but it is indeed very warm.

Third, I have had enough exposure of the soviet mentality regarding western men. Again, the possibility exists that I may have missed something, but I'm willing to bet that I haven't. In general, these people have generations of practice in this area and skills beyond my realm of recognition. BUT, not all are like that. I sincerely believe that she isn't. The reason I can say this is due to personal observation over the past 18 months. Prior to my last visit, I opened a separate bank account for the sole purpose of providing her with access to some money if she should need it. I left the debit card and PIN with her when I left and promised to keep a few hundred dollars in the account just in case she needs something. To date, she has withdrawn only $60 from the account. When we speak on the telephone, she volunteers accountability for the money she has spent. I did not limit her spending, the only limitation will be her character.

Last of all.. If I enter a shop to make a purchase of a candy bar there is not much to consider and ponder but the choice based on personal preference for a sweet that will be consumed pretty quickly. Furthermore, the price/investment will not affect me very much if it turns out not to be what I had imagined, and discarding it would not be a huge problem for me. However, when I decide to purchase a home, I will indeed ensure that all possible considerations have been investigated and perhaps even hire 'experts' for opinion on issues that I may not be aware of. The purchase of a home is not the same as a candy bar to me.

Kind Regards...

[Maxx]

It's one big crap shoot

Here in Minnesota, USA I payed the maximum amount possible in child support. In Minnesota unlike California we has a cap. It is about (it least it was 2-3 years ago) $1550 a month with health insurance added in. So it made $1636 a month for me. This ended for me 2 years ago when my daughter graduated. At the same time my brief marriage to my Russian wife (15 years younger than me) ended ( actually ended the next month). She had a 7 year old son from a previous marriage. I paid nothing in child support.

Now my ex filed false DV charges on me (to get a Green Card) after our separation and my filing for the divorce. So if she had been pregnant then I would be paying her about 20 K a year or 25% of my income, whatever is the lesser (in Minnesota). I suppose I would also have supervised visitation rights as she got a quicky easy to get protective order in a 'she said, he said' trial. Or have to travel across the US to see my child as the ex moved away shortly after she took care of her legal matters here in Minnesota.

Jack's other thread talks about that often times these large age gap marriages have a short shelf. Also a 25 year age gap would make for a young woman (unless you are in your 70's or 80's) in her prime for having children. Since it's a woman's perogative is to change her mind........ Frankly I see the safest thing is too close the age gap and choose a woman who has children already. Maybe find one in her later thirties or early forties whose children are grown and off on lives of their own. That's where I am leaning. I am 52 but was 47 when I started this long journey. One big mistake costs allot of years out of your life. Please remember that.

Also I would be concerned about having things in your name before you marry than waiting until afterwards. Example your house, business and even cars. The fact it is "premarital property" carries quite allot of weight in a short term marriage. She has her youth, health and a chance at the American dream and you have your premarital property. The courts understand.... I say this because everyone worries about prenups like that is going to save them. Number 1 is "Choosing wisely". Number 2 is "Don't get them pregnant right away". Number 3 is "premarital property" IMO.

Good Luck,

Maxx

 

[andrewfi]

So, then if you have found the woman, where is the country?

Then your question can be answered, maybe...

[Elen]

If a child is born to a US Citizen in the FSU, what are the legal standards in determining the amount of child support if the father decides to leave the marriage, or even if the parents weren't married?

Russia ( in theory)

(What I'm informed about )

1. Who is a father.

According to Russian laws affiliation is executed by Russian laws if child was born at Russian territory. There are two way to do that

a) come together with mother to Russian ZAGS and declare your fatherhood

b) in Russian court by claim from one side ( Court would take ANY proofs. Also Court has a right to demand a genetic test)

2. Father is "determinated".

(Now it dose not matter if parents are marry, divorsed or never have been married - children have the equal rights for support from parents) 

Mother has a right to make a claim for alimony in Russian court or in American one. Truth tell I have not idea how much she could get in American court, in Russian one she could count at 25% from his income for one child ( 33% - for two, 50% - for 3 and more) 

 PS BTW To your inform Aventurero Soviet women were raised in "traditions" of getting almost nothing from fathers for child support and have a plenty skills in raising their children by their own just not have to dial with so called "fathers" who have no conscience to support their offsprings willingly 
And all that enough exposure of the soviet mentality of yours is actually only about MOB market in general and is the same for any place at this planet

 

PSS Well  ? Don't you need a lecture about contraception as well?


 

Bruno
Child support stop when the woman life with a other man... since the registration, it is easy for the ex-man to know it...

In Russia a father is free from alimony ONLY after child becomes 18 years old or other man adopted him/her ( but not just married to mother)

[Bruno]

A Swedish man who donated his sperm to a lesbian couple must pay child support for the three children he fathered, Sweden's Supreme Court has ruled.

The man, now 39, donated his sperm to the couple in the early 1990s.

Three sons were born during the years 1992-1996, according to Swedish news agency TT, which reported the ruling.

The man told the court that he and the women had agreed that he would play no role in the boys' child-rearing and that the two women would be their parents.

Nonetheless, the man signed a document confirming that he was the biological father of the children.

Shortly after he signed the document, the two women separated and the biological mother demanded that the man pay child support.

The man took the case to court, but lost in the district and appeals courts.

The Supreme Court upheld those rulings on Wednesday, saying that as the biological father he is required to pay for the children's upbringing.

[/i]

other link :

http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2276&date=20051012

So, take care what is make with your sperm... destroy it directly after production...

[Elen]

Of if father and mother have sign document ( with notaris ) where the father renounce to all his father right and duty ( case of my ex-wife ). In so case, only the mother is responsible for child...

well clarification

father CAN"T just sign out from his fatherhood forever by signing some documents It could be done only if other man has a wish to replace biological father through adoption. ( in your case Bruno that child would have a right for father's legacy for example)

Mother may not demand alimony from father's child but has a right to ask for them in any moment till child is still under 18 agers ( even if she signed some papers before in wich she said she didn't need alimony.)  Females have a legal right to change their minds , times may change and child should not pay for mother's temporary silliness. Mother still has a right to go to court and claim alimony again. 

[Leslie]

The laws on Child support are similar in all the FSU countries as they were largely based on the old Soviet laws.  As Andrew correctly points out the detail is different so if you want the exact statutes you need to state which country.

The reason that child support payments are not enforced through most of the former FSU is down to poverty.  If the guy has no steady, regular job then a court may award a maintenance payment but it is practically unenforcable. 

In UK and most of the USA the government has the option of expensive enforcement systems designed to collect payments from reluctant absent parents.  It does not matter if the enforcement system costs way more than it collects.  Recently in UK the Child Support Agency scandel broke yet again.  This enforcment system has NEVER worked and the government has to admit it would have been over £2 billion a year cheaper just to pay the money from public funds!  In the West governments can afford such indulgent behavior. In the former FSU countries they can't.

In Ukraine Middle class fathers pay child support on roughly the scale Elen describes.  It is common for a flat to be gifted to the children on divorce. If you are an Army Officer or a professional a % of your income can(and will) be assigned by a court. Of course if father is an itinerent building laborer or works in the black economy he is just not worth chasing and the government won't help. 

As a foriegner you can always leave the country.  There is no "legal aid" available to the mother of your child to sue you in a foreign court.  To my knowledge Ukraine does not have shared jurisdiction laws with the EU or USA.  So a Ukrainianian maintenance order cannot be enforced in these countries.  However if you are rich you could be sued in the US courts for a maintenance order, divorce settlement and and legal costs.  An order made by the courts of your own country will be enforced.  Something that Mick Jagger has found to his cost on a couple of occasions!!

Is all this detail worth anything though?  A decent guy will NOT walk out on his wife and children.  He will provide somewhere for them to live and income to help with their upbringing.  The fact that you even ask this question tells everyone a whole lot about your character.....

 

[Bruno]

A decent guy will NOT walk out on his wife and children.  He will provide somewhere for them to live and income to help with their upbringing. 

Fully agree about money for child... since the man have help to make it, it is his shared responsability... but for the woman, i don't agree... they have wish equal right... i don't see why a man need to pay a woman if they divorce... she is able to work like everybody...

Recently, women have loose some advantage in our country... previously, retirment was 65 yo for man and 60 yo for woman... now, they are equal... everybody at 65 yo.

Same right and duty for everybody... no difference of color and sex...

 

[c5driver]

I agree that men should provide money for their children - many men think they can skip all responsibility for their children, which is of wrong, of course. The problem with child support in America is that the more a man makes, the more they must pay in child support. A man with a good income must pay much of his income, and the woman receives much more money than she spends on the children. She can buy a mercedes with the child support money - it's perfectly legal. In California there's no upper limit, so awards of $10,000s per month per child are common for children of actors (I'm sure the mothers do buy mercedes with the money).

[ConnerVT]

[user=488]c5driver[/user] wrote:

In California there's no upper limit, so awards of $10,000s per month per child are common for children of actors (I'm sure the mothers do buy mercedes with the money).

Well. of course!  We can't have her drive those little darling movie star offspring to soccer practice in a Dodge minivan, can we?  That's for ordinary children! 

[bbernard]

Mother may not demand alimony from father's child but has a right to ask for them in any moment till child is still under 18 agers ( even if she signed some papers before in wich she said she didn't need alimony.)  Females have a legal right to change their minds , times may change and child should not pay for mother's temporary silliness. Mother still has a right to go to court and claim alimony again. 

 

Same goes for fathers! In my case I am the primary parent in my sons life. My home is his primary home! 80-85% of his time is spent with me. I handle 95% of all his expenses and I claim him as a dependent for taxes every year! In my marriage settlement agreement for my divorce, under child support, it was written "primary parent does not ask for child support"! At the moment I don't need it and I just figured it would be a great hassle in dealing with the ex because she would never pay it! It would create more animosity and arguing between her and I and I knew that would not be in my sons best interest. Having said this, during the divorce mediation my lawyer explained to my ex the reasons I was not asking for child support and made it quite clear to her that if she chose to not be civil and work with me in raising him that I could, at anytime, petition the courts for the child support! The end result was and seems to be that she is not the a**hole I know she can be. She is a very materialistic person (classic gold digger).

But the point being made here is that regardless of mother or father, it is the parent who has custody or as in Florida, like I am, defined as the primary parent who has the right to request child support at anytime until the child is 18 years old regardless of what was agreed upon at anytime prior to the petition.

bbernard

[c5driver]

bbernard,

In California, if you had a good job and 80% custody, and your ex was unemployed (as mine always is) then you could get stuck paying her child support for the 20% visitation time that she does have. It's pure socialism here.

C5driver