Again about Jim

[groovlstk]

None of them are marriage agencies in the way Western guys think of them.. they are dating clubs and MATCHMAKERS with trained staff psychologists. 

Staff trained psychologists? In Russia, no less?  Their staff trained psychologists are most likely hairdressers (ahem, cosmotologists) with an interest in astrology who downloaded a questionnaire off the internet.

I just think it is a good idea if someone is in the business of introducing people to go out of their way to provide quality services so they don't have problems later.  Imagine yourself as an agency owner and a couple you introduced later turned out to have some kind of major disaster.. like real abuse or worse.  Would it not affect your life or would you just brush it off like so many insects?

As usual, you can't make a point without injecting some hysterical hypothetical situation. If you want an answer, ask Kevin or Jack or someone who actually owns a marriage agency, not me.

ps, Groove.. you don't know me and your personal attacks are not appreciated.  You are engaging in gratuitous provocation and if you really want to play that way go over to my pick on Sculpto thread and start something there and you can see what it gets you.  Out of respect for Dan and everyone else I am not going to get into a battles here or any other thread started by someone else.

I won't post in your self-indulgent, narcissistic thread. If you want to star in your own reality TV program, do it on your own time.

[BC]

Groove,

Welcome to the pickle barrel club 

[Boethius]

deleted

[Sculpto]

Staff trained psychologists? In Russia, no less?  Their staff trained psychologists are most likely hairdressers (ahem, cosmotologists) with an interest in astrology who downloaded a questionnaire off the internet.

All assumptions on your part.  The bottom line is they are providing the service that we have been told by an agency owner focused on western men that it can't be done.

As usual, you can't make a point without injecting some hysterical hypothetical situation. If you want an answer, ask Kevin or Jack or someone who actually owns a marriage agency, not me.

awww I will cry you tear because you don't like the debate.

I won't post in your self-indulgent, narcissistic thread. If you want to star in your own reality TV program, do it on your own time.

again, personal attacks.  Whats your freakin problem Groove?  I have never ONCE said anything negative to you.  If you don't like my posting style don't respond.  No one is forcing you to.

[Daveman]

All assumptions on your part.  The bottom line is they are providing the service that we have been told by an agency owner focused on western men that it can't be done.

...

Sculpto,
What is it exactly that you are saying "can" or should be done?  Let's say for argument's sake that an agency hires trained psychologists, conducts a battery of tests, performs background checks -- even with all of that, I still can't see an agency being responsible for what occurs after a meeting.  Sure maybe they could possibility weed out the one in a million who sees visions of aliens or prays to hallucinations of Elvis in his closet, but to my mind, any normal woman who gets to know her man should be able to see that something is up prior to marriage. If she jumps into a marriage with a stranger, why is she not solely responsible for her own idiotic behavior?

Maybe I'm not correctly following the point you're trying to make.  Why should an introduction agency be held accountable for anything which occurs after the introduction?  As mentioned somewhere above, many of the international dating sites do use the terms "brides", "marriage".  The only pay to play venue I've used in this has been EM, so how to the agencies to which you are referring differ from that of just introducing two people and various services to facilitate the introductions?

[Sculpto]

Dave.. thanks for the articulate question.  I will try to explain what I think agencies should be doing in the best interests of everyone.

first of all lets define the "bad apples"...

Female.. scammers, pro daters, gcg, and people with bi-polar or other disorders.
Male.. sex tourists, control freaks, yes there are some male scammers, and people with bi-polar or other disorders.

A thorough interview by a well trained and insightful psychologist would easily identify people with mental problems that are not likely to be able to handle the stresses of moving to another country and others who could be a danger to each other.  While some of the ladies probably transition smoothly, I think more often it is pretty difficult.  If people who are unstable are not allowed into an agency that gives the rest of the members more credibility and more security in their choices.

Scammers are probably the hardest group to identify as they are skilled liars and might be capable of fooling even the best interviewer.  But, a carefully designed questionaire COULD, I didn't say will, reduce the risk. 

Pro daters are obvious from their actions and should simply be removed from an agency.  I doubt pro daters join an agency thinking.. wow.. I am going to get wined and dined and taken on shopping trips.  I think pro daters are made by the process.  Though, I might very well be wrong about that.

Men who are sex tourists would be pretty easy to flush out also.  Again, a carefully designed set of questions would indicate the probability that man was less than sincere in his purpose. 

Control freaks.. really easy to identify.  Have you ever "baited" a control freak?  I have, and it aint pretty.  Sometimes I do it with potential clients because I do not want the hassles that go with them.  In fact, I turn down close to 50% of the clients I come into contact with because they send up some kind of red flags that I don't want to deal with.  I learned to do it the hard way. 

Now.. on another level.. I believe there are a pretty large number of men in this search who have had bad luck with women in their lives.  Some men may be pretty clueless about relationships.  As a couple starts to know each other under the pressure cooker of limited time, it would seem to be very nice for both parties to be able to discuss things with a neutral third party whos only interest is seeing those people achieve happiness.. either in that couple or not.

I can use the example of my friend that i posted for the other day.  I have since learned a lot more about her situation and the degree to which she has been controlled and manipulated by the man she is involved with.  It is very clear to me that his selection of a naive girl from the village was intentional.  He has elevated her standard of living considerably but implemented a large number of rules.  She is well aware she is being "kept" for his exclusive "use" and that is more than other reason why she is breaking it off because her sense of self respect and integrity have been trashed and she would rather live in the hostel with no hot water than be kept by this man.

So, why would a 40 year old man with some level of financial independence put a young lady under that level of control?  Paying for an apartment, buying all her clothes, food, and taking her on out of country vacations?  There is a 20 year age gap.  I don't see love being part of the deal there.. not with the other evidence she presented.  BTW.. just so no one gets any ideas that I am getting played.. the lady and I have a mutual friend and what she has told me was confirmed by him.  She is just in over her head and has come to her senses.  Thats it.  anyway..

What I see is a man who had no emotional success with women and who views women as not much more than a place to deposit liquids.  Seduction, finance and control is the method with the goal of having the hot young thing to show off to his friends.  Oh, and I was able to track him down.. one of the businesses he owns is listed as "adult nightclub".  What do you think that is?  Public records are very interesting.

Agencies regularly introduce innocent young ladies to much older men.  They know damn well what can happen.  They took the money.. they got the girl to join with promises of a happy life.. so why don't they have an obligation to do everything in their power to make sure who they introduce her to is a decent person? And vice versa.

The men are paying for the services of the agency.  I think all of us here are aware how much money is involved.  They can afford to do it without raising their prices, and, I think they would end up with a lot fewer hassles at the end of the day.  But, greed is the main motivator for most operators in this industry.  A little less greed and a lot more honor and the stigmas go out the door and a lot more lonely people might find what they are looking for.

Then again.. maybe I am engaging in wishful thinking.

[Donhollio]

 I`m sure there are psychologists in Russia. 

I only know of one and shes lives in the UK these days.


 Reading this I have to wonder why a agency owner is suppose to make assumptions on some guy.  If he shows some aggressive boorish traits while still in the agency office, then the owner would be wise to direct him to the door. In turn saving his girls from getting turned off meeting any foreign guys. It would be bad for his business, and the girls will not participate in future meetings.  Maybe the girl and deranged guy are to blame for their own problems that they both willingly committed to ? 
 I once asked Jim for his thoughts on a agency,and he was very helpful and requested I give him a follow up after I made the visit. His site does help, how can anyone can dispute this ?   He posts the worst agency's out there, agency's that bilk guys of hundreds of their income, leaving them with shattered hope of ever finding a FSU girl.
 A sharing of information is vital to help the newbie.

[acrzybear]

Sculpto

 I don't have your worldly experiences, however I have been around the block once or twice in dealing with guys like the one you described.
Yes having a pretty women is part of the equation, however the main issue is control. This type of person enjoys controlling others and forcing them to do his will. Chances are pretty good that this guy would have turned physically abusive within a year or her arriving in his country.  He is the type that would hit her and then say "I'm sorry, you know I love you but when you don't do as I "ask", you force me to do these things to you. There is no rehabilitating this type of person, there are arguments about whether this is learned behavior or if the person is born with a wire loose.  In my many years of dealing with these types of individuals I have learned that the only thing they understand is brute force, someone has to stand up to them and put them in check and unfortunately that sometimes includes physical violence. 

As far as your idea of agencies goes, I don't feel they should be held responsible for the behavior of adults.  If the agency is aware of one of the involved party's'  short comings then they should tell the other person what they know or believe and then let that person make there own decision.  There are so many resources available today a person should either do some research and figure things out on their own or get their toys and leave the sandbox.  An  An agency can assist with cultural information, lodging, transportation etc.. but it should not be required to hold a persons hand through out the whole ordeal.

  An agency can have a good owner that tries to do their best, however the bottom line is that it is a business and the owner has to put food on the table, not babysit grown adults.  You can try to help folks, but if they are intent on self destructing, all you can do is get the popcorn and watch the show.

[ECOCKS]

Analogizing and paraphrasing.....

I am reminded of that scene in Sleepless in Seattle where the jilted suitor remarks that marriage is difficult enough without going into it with such low expectations.

It has really struck me in this and three other threads that as a group WM seeking FSUW have such a uniformly low opinion of agencies, their owners and their competencies.

Possibly well-deserved based upon history, but still sad and lacking in the general portrayal of having given up all hope of finding a decent agency which actually can provide value in the search.

[Admin]

Analogizing and paraphrasing.....

I am reminded of that scene in Sleepless in Seattle where the jilted suitor remarks that marriage is difficult enough without going into it with such low expectations.

It has really struck me in this and three other threads that as a group WM seeking FSUW have such a uniformly low opinion of agencies, their owners and their competencies.

Possibly well-deserved based upon history, but still sad and lacking in the general portrayal of having given up all hope of finding a decent agency which actually can provide value in the search.

Ed - your post reminded me of this RWD poll -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3322.0.

- Dan