All eggs in one basket

[boaterguy]

Interesting about the differents views of being 2nd choice.

Blues Fairy...Many have a saying! Never say Never! I am also certain in the hypothetical situation(where you said a man shouldn't tell you your are 2nd choice) you would indeed question why the man was in Russia and if he is honest you would discover you were 2nd choice!

My 1st trip to Russia was quite a total success. I went the social tour route because I was an inexperienced traveler. My now wife knew I would be attending the socials before she arrived. The 1st thing I told every lady I met at the socials was the main reason for me being there was to meet my now wife! I had no problems getting dates and met several nice ladies with whom I could easily have seen a future with. Yes they wanted 2nd dates and hoped things would not work between my wife and I!

[kievstar]

Hi boater guy,  after your first physical meeting with your wife did you meet other women?

[boaterguy]

Hi boater guy,  after your first physical meeting with your wife did you meet other women?

Nope! She caught me hook,line and sinker! I was actually talked into the tour by European Connections. It wasn't a whole lot more money than doing the trip on my own. My plan went full swing! We met in Moscow and took her on the 2nd part of the tour to Kiev. I wasn't home a week before i was planning my next trip to be with her a month later! We are 3 weeks from our 5th anniversary! 

[groovlstk]

Some women won't deign to meet a guy who makes romantic overtures and then explains that she's one of a group of other women he plans to audition, w/identical intent.

You can talk until you're blue in the face about how she should be happy for your honesty - such talk is for yourself and this board, because she's already written you off and could care less about your dating philosophy.

We're talking about ROMANCE here, not physics.

In the past I've seen some agency owners explain to clients that a woman who expects exclusivity is too possessive or unrealistic and of course that would then be extrapolated to the point where she was disparaged as a potentially "bad" wife or some such nonsense.

Glad I didn't take those words to heart when I met my wife, otherwise I'd still be writing TRs here.

[Daveman]

Ahhh, borscht......Daveman, can you smell it?  Borscht is better than sex

HAHA!  Yes indeed.  There is perhaps an hour or two each day where sex would be better, but when she drifts to sleep I'd be in the kitchen raidin' the pot, cackling maniacally. Maybe that's the whole trick to this backup plan conundrum.  "I cae here for borshch, and now that I am full, I want to finally meet..."  No need to mention who prepared the borshch :-))  yeah, I'm just positive that'll work.  :evil:

Then of course you can seduce her into the tub of borshch with the smetana hair conditioner

[Blues Fairy]

Blues Fairy...Many have a saying! Never say Never! I am also certain in the hypothetical situation(where you said a man shouldn't tell you your are 2nd choice) you would indeed question why the man was in Russia and if he is honest you would discover you were 2nd choice!

Why the man was in Russia is the man's own business.  What he was doing before he ran into me is none of my concern.  But if he's silly enough to disclose I am the 2nd or 3rd choice, he's basically not courting me but laying bare all his dating adventure in hopes that I'll understand and take part in it.  Like hell I will - and I say NEVER in full knowledge. 

[Daveman]

Why the man was in Russia is the man's own business.  What he was doing before he ran into me is none of my concern.  But if he's silly enough to disclose I am the 2nd or 3rd choice, he's basically not courting me but laying bare all his dating adventure in hopes that I'll understand and take part in it.  Like hell I will - and I say NEVER in full knowledge.  

Well yes, I agree with your attitude, but for some reason women have this very pesky tendency to ask specific questions such as "have you ever dated/visited/thought about a Russian woman before?"  The truth will "set you free", literally in some cases.  I haven't been in  situation, yet anyway, where I was using a "back up" plan, but if I do find myself in that situation, I think I'd not volunteer anything and simply use the generic answer "I don't like to speak about past relationships", or "I don't talk about my dating life".. something like that - and let the chips fall where they may.  Groov said it best in that it's all a minefield.  

Edit: and the main point I wanted to make and forgot... this type of "pointed" questioning probably isn't done with a local guy.  She knows he's had relations previously, and doesn't question it, but, there seems to be something about when a foreign man has ever visited another Russian woman that just seems to bother some of them.  As if there's something wrong with the guy for not marrying the first RW he meets.  That's  little different from the scenario of declaring that a lady is a second or third choice (which would be absolute idiocy IMO), but just another aspect of the minefield we must navigate which doesn't apply to a local guy.

[KenC]

Why the man was in Russia is the man's own business.  What he was doing before he ran into me is none of my concern.  But if he's silly enough to disclose I am the 2nd or 3rd choice, he's basically not courting me but laying bare all his dating adventure in hopes that I'll understand and take part in it.  Like hell I will - and I say NEVER in full knowledge. 

BF,
I agree that no one wants to be a second or third choice.  I have a hypothetical question for you.  Many men weed through the thousands of profiles and refine their final list of women they would like to meet via email communication.  What if a man goes to the fsu to meet a few of these women without getting too deep into any one relationship?  He has no first, second or third choice, but just wants to meet them face to face before making any definitive choices at all.  What is the difference between this and casual dating at home?

How would a RW accept the fact that the man is just exploring the possibilities of meeting the right woman in the fsu but does not want to make any particular decision until meeting?  Do you have any suggestions on how a man can handle such a situation that would not be offensive to the woman?

For what it is worth, when I met Lena, I met other women from the agency.  They all knew I was there to meet a number of women and no one seemed to be offended.  They all understood the drill.
KenC

[Misha]

Why the man was in Russia is the man's own business.  What he was doing before he ran into me is none of my concern.  But if he's silly enough to disclose I am the 2nd or 3rd choice, he's basically not courting me but laying bare all his dating adventure in hopes that I'll understand and take part in it.  Like hell I will - and I say NEVER in full knowledge. 

I am fortunate then that I was practicing serial WOVO. Every woman on every date I had was my first choice at the time and potentially my last choice if I thought she was the one. If the first date panned, then I could go online, find another first choice and repeated as necessary until I found my wife.

[Blues Fairy]

He has no first, second or third choice, but just wants to meet them face to face before making any definitive choices at all.  What is the difference between this and casual dating at home?

And does casual dating at home involve giving your date unsolicited information about all the other dates you've had or are planning?  When dating a local woman, do you tell her outright that you are currently undecided about whom to pursue and would like to see how it goes before making a final choice?  

For what it is worth, when I met Lena, I met other women from the agency.  They all knew I was there to meet a number of women and no one seemed to be offended.  They all understood the drill.
KenC

That's why I kept away from any agencies.  I have my own "drill" and men who don't accept it go, respectfully, to ....  

[Tanner]

WOW... Thank you for all of the great advice.  Like I said before being in Germany it is fairly easy for me to make these trips.  I will plan my first trip around the woman who I feel the best connection with.  If things don't go well I'll then become a solo tourist or I will call the agency.   

[KenC]

And does casual dating at home involve giving your date unsolicited information about all the other dates you've had or are planning?  When dating a local woman, do you tell her outright that you are currently undecided about whom to pursue and would like to see how it goes before making a final choice?  

That is my whole point for asking.  I would not offer up such information on a first, second or even third date at home.  Why is it necessary to do so in the fsu?  "Don't ask, don't tell" should be the rule here as I see it until a relationship develops.  As long as there are no expectations expected or implied, what is the harm in just meeting and going on a few dates?  Even if both parties are looking for a long term relationship leading to marriage, it doesn't mean you have to lead with the commitment.

That's why I kept away from any agencies.  I have my own "drill" and men who don't accept it go, respectfully, to ....  

I do not see anything wrong in using agencies for introductions to women or for the women to be introduced to men.  It is a numbers game as I see it.  It isn't how you meet is is that you do meet and what you do after meeting that matters.
KenC

[Daveman]

WOW... Thank you for all of the great advice.  Like I said before being in Germany it is fairly easy for me to make these trips.  I will plan my first trip around the woman who I feel the best connection with.  If things don't go well I'll then become a solo tourist or I will call the agency.   

Well, there is some serious legwork (not only staring at those gorgeous legs mind you) in whatever approach you choose.  I've been running some estimated numbers, and really, I can't see a whole heck of a lot of difference *overall* in the difference in time, cost, effort between WMVM or WOVO.  Unless you get lucky and meet your dream lady on the first trip (and really, what are the odds either way?  you meet 10 ladies in a week, there's really a very small chance that one of them will really be your future partner... or you weed out 50 prior to making a trip and decide to go meet one, odds are she doesn't work out and you still make multiple trips).

KenC is spot on up there. It's a numbers game. Regardless of how you weed through the numbers, at the end of the day the score will even out over multiple trips, lots of money, etc etc.   I think the debates over WMVM or WMVO, or WOVO are futile in the big picture.  Without sheer luck in coming face to face with The One early on, you are going to be making multiple trips and running the numbers, one way or another. No way around it.

[BillyB]

Why the man was in Russia is the man's own business.  What he was doing before he ran into me is none of my concern.  But if he's silly enough to disclose I am the 2nd or 3rd choice, he's basically not courting me but laying bare all his dating adventure in hopes that I'll understand and take part in it.  Like hell I will - and I say NEVER in full knowledge. 

Blues Fairy,

  It is assumed the woman has already asked a question why a man's in the FSU to even get an answer from him. If a man voluntarily discloses his reason for being in the FSU, then that is foolish of him to discuss other women when not asked.

Most people know me here as the guy who wrote to hundreds of women. I've also called hundreds of different women. For those women who've asked me if I've met other women, currently calling other women or writing other women, none have hung the phone up on me for giving them an honest answer and some thanked me for being frank and honest with them because they already suspect the truth and they understand way this international dating game works. Keep in mind, I don't talk to them as if I'm bragging and I don't speak in a defensive manner as if I'm doing something wrong... because I've done nothing wrong.

You are married and have the luxury of taking a hard lined stance on this issue. But if you were single waiting for Mr.Right to show up and a man calls you up and you like his tone of voice and the way he's polite, intelligent and talks like a gentleman instead of bragging he's seen other women, it's not so simple to hang up on possible Mr. Right after he gives you an honest answer to a question you asked and he establishes himself as a loyal WOVO man. Although it's not the way you dreamed a good man would show up in your life but he's still a good man.

I thought you had a fiancee?

I do have a fiancee.

Tanner you can use the "tourist" excuse if you want if things don't happen with #1 but if you're in any other city beside St. Petersburg or Moscow, then it is unwise to lie. Many FSU women aren't that dumb. They will assume you are lying because nobody in their right mind would think their city is good enough for tourists when there are so many better choices or they would simply think you're a sex tourist. Girls have heard this excuse hundreds of times. Do you want to be just another guy out there giving out the same BS? Tell a lady the truth if they ask that you spent months committed to one lady, took a big step to visit her and it didn't work out. Tell her you are actually serious in finding serious relations and you're interested in learning more about her instead just site seeing as a tourist in "boring city".

 If you or any guy here has a problem talking in a mature manner with a lady about the truth on an issue like this because you fear getting in trouble and dumped before you even meet, there may be deeper issues that lie within yourself you need to address. I've never been hung up on and never refused a date because I've told the truth. And if I ever met a lady who couldn't handle the truth, there are many thousands more to replace them at dozens of sites like this below. No sense getting depressed over rejection.

http://bride.ru/

[Tanner]

Thank you BillyB.  Luckily my number 1 lives in Nikolaev, Ukraine so we are planning to meet and spend time in Odessa.  The reason I started this thread is because my #2 lives in Odessa.  With round trip tickets costing only $400 I can risk two separate trips.  I agree it's a numbers game.  But after my first trip if I need to play the numbers game I will.  I just feel my first trip should be as stress free as possible.  Speaking of which, what is the best way to learn Russian other than actual classes?  Anyone recommend a certain software program?

[groovlstk]

Speaking of which, what is the best way to learn Russian other than actual classes?  Anyone recommend a certain software program?

I found Pimsleur to be very good, but unless you're taking intensive formal lessons the best you can expect from software/CDs is to learn some simple phrases and common words. 99.9% of what Russian people say will float blissfully by your head even after you complete the course.

[Misha]

Speaking of which, what is the best way to learn Russian other than actual classes? 

You can try Mango Languages: http://mangolanguages.com/.

[BillyB]

Thank you BillyB.  Luckily my number 1 lives in Nikolaev, Ukraine so we are planning to meet and spend time in Odessa.  The reason I started this thread is because my #2 lives in Odessa. 

That complicates things if you've already made contact with #2. Assuming things fall apart with #1, showing up with a few days left to see #2 won't be productive enough to make a good decision about her. I say if things fall apart with #1, don't call #2 on your visit. Meet ladies on the street or beach or call up ladies at an agency or dating site. Make lots of friends and go back home and communicate with them all. Ponder the situation and pick a woman that's best for you and it'll also be good thing for her too. You live in Germany so if #2 is now #1 or someone else is #1, it's a easy short flight to see her and you'll be able give her and you enough face to face time to decide if you want to take it to a relationship level.

If it's not too late, add time on your vacation and spend time with both, one lady in the first half and another in the second half. Remind both ladies that you are serious in finding a good woman in your life but you are first visiting them as a friend only. Don't make any romantic promises. They probably won't either. If your lady is good looking and a quality woman, she already has plenty of guys to talk to and you're just another egg in the basket.

[Blues Fairy]

You are married and have the luxury of taking a hard lined stance on this issue. But if you were single waiting for Mr.Right to show up and a man calls you up and you like his tone of voice and the way he's polite, intelligent and talks like a gentleman instead of bragging he's seen other women, it's not so simple to hang up on possible Mr. Right after he gives you an honest answer to a question you asked

Billy, I always had that luxury even before I was married - this is just how I operate. I and I know a great deal of women who operate the same way.  It's not a horse race and we do not like to be in a competition.  That a man must browse through women this way, however politely and intelligently, indicates that he wouldn't invest proper time into getting to know them prior to showing up - and I have always believed in a lengthy correspondence prior to a meeting.  I assure you, letters are a good enough way to figure out if the woman (or man) is worth an exclusive trip.

[MatryoshkaMan]

I envy all the lucky b*stards who live in Europe! Not only do they get a lot of vacation they afre a quick flight away from Ukraine where they don't even need to get a visa!! I would be over like 10 times a year if I was lucky enough to be based in Germany! Arghh!!!!!! Shoot me, I live on the west coast and I get 3 weeks of vacation a year and even so I have to beg my boss to sign the damn form!!!!

[GQBlues]

Hi GQ,

Thanks  for your input.  I think it is fine to visit many women and let them now in advance but once you met your wife did you meet other women after meeting her in person?  

kievstar~

After I met her in person the first time, we agreed to continue getting to know one another better. We both took a more personal process phase and started dating. I was still dating/seeing women at home while she was still corresponding with other suitors (may also be dating on the homefront). I took my second trip to reinforced the first trip within 2 months, I believe.

I severed all my correspondences in Russia almost immediately after my first trip*, then stopped dating altogether after my 3rd trip when we mutually agreed to be exclusive. I had taken 5 trips within the year. Each trip was methodical and for differing, progressive purpose.

* disclaimer: There's a qualifier to this that I can add. I'm just not sure if it applies by technicality.