Housing comparisons

[ECOCKS]

In line with Ronnie's thread on healthcare perceptions, I was curious how most felt about housing standards and availability/accessibility in the FSU versus North America. I'll use my reaction to a statement in his thread which I replied with before thinking that I was helping to hijack the topic by responding to an OT comment. We're a group which has traveled to multiple locations throughout the region and, of course have seen a fairly wide variety of housing situations in the US so, it would seem we're a qualified group to comment on this.

Enjoy...

"You have to be really making good money in USA if you want to buy same quality apartment before you are 35."

Again, I don't know where a statement like this comes from. I'm not particularly plugged in to the under 35 segment of the population but hundreds of thousands of them have houses the size you are talking about or larger. My unmarried, 28 year old son just bought an 1800 sq. ft. (roughly 165 sq. m.), 4BR, 3BA, multilevel home in downtown Baltimore. A couple who are close friends bought the home across the street from him last December. The people across the street from my home are a couple in their early 30's and probably owned a home before this one. I purchased my first home when I was 26. This statement is just flat wrong.

As for quality of construction, I see no comparison with standards between the FSU and North America. Small, cramped rooms, plumbing that has to be periodically shut down for maintenance for weeks at a time each year, extremely poor quality concrete, limited bathroom designs, tiny balconies, woefully insufficient electrical outlet availability, no AC, inconsistent heating, elevators the size of phone booths, crumbling concrete, rotted window frames and door assemblies - all of these are the norm. Then consider land and garages. Simply better quality home construction might well add a measurable amount of time to average life expectancy in FSU countries.

[Ronnie]

That's why the call home ownership in FSU, the "Achieving the Russian Dream".  

Well, maybe not quite so much.

[Aloe]

As for quality of construction, I see no comparison with standards between the FSU and North America. Small, cramped rooms, plumbing that has to be periodically shut down for maintenance for weeks at a time each year, extremely poor quality concrete, limited bathroom designs, tiny balconies, woefully insufficient electrical outlet availability, no AC, inconsistent heating, elevators the size of phone booths, crumbling concrete, rotted window frames and door assemblies - all of these are the norm. Then consider land and garages. Simply better quality home construction might well add a measurable amount of time to average life expectancy in FSU countries.

that is the norm for buildings built 30 years ago. Modern buildings are much better, and they do not get their water shut down either because they have new pipes that dont need yearly maintenance, they have plastic frames too, and whats wrong with using that thing, whats it called? You plug it in the outlet and it provides you 3-5 more outlets. As for small rooms, you have to be very rich to afford more than small rooms with 1 square meter costing 5 thousand bucks in the cheapest new buildings and much more in better quality buildings (in moscow). That is 250 thousand dollars for single room 50 square meter apartment. Also its the first time i hear about inconsistent heating, all my life always had adequate heating allowing me to walk around the house in summer clothes all year around.

[GoodOlBoy]

.....no AC, inconsistent heating,.....

A little 

When I went to visit my wife in Siberia (Omsk) for the first time almost 6 years ago, it was during the Christmas/New Years Holiday.

I live in Miami, it is usually 75-80 degrees F here at Christmas time.

When I arrived in Moscow it was snowing and cold.

No Biggie, I was prepared for that. I had been watching the Weather Channel, so I knew before leaving I had to purchase long johns, gloves, etc.

My wife met me in SVO, we spent a few days in Moscow and I felt pretty confident that I could "handle" any kind of bad weather.

A few days later we landed in Omsk at 6:00AM and it was so d*mn cold I wanted to get back on the airplane!

I have NEVER in my life been so cold. I have hunted in the mountains of Virginia/North Carolina in the dead of winter and that was nothing compared to Siberia.

When we finally got to my wife's flat, it was cold there also.

She had an electric heater that plugs into the wall and that helped some, but I have to tell you that it was just plain cold as hell there.

When I woke up in bed the first morning, I actually saw my breath!

I turned on the TV, didn't understand much of anything being said, but the weather reporter came on and was giving the forecast for Omsk.

It was -38 degrees C!

We are not talking about wind chill factor, NO NO NO, we are talking about the actual temperature outside.


GOB

[Misha]

Also its the first time i hear about inconsistent heating, all my life always had adequate heating allowing me to walk around the house in summer clothes all year around.

My wife is from northern Russia and she noted that the cold outside would often start before the heat. In other words, by early September, it would often be quite cool or even cold, and they would not start the heat until mid-September. In the spring, it would be the opposite: it would already be hot in May, but they would not stop the heat until a set date.

[ECOCKS]

Yeah, my wife was a bit surprised that our house has two separate AC systems (up/down). People in Kyiv continually complained that their only control of their heat came from buying oil-filled or hot coil electric heaters. The same comments come from the expats with Russian time under their belts.

There are days when you have to be careful what is on top of the radiators and days when you can use them as unconfortable seating areas. Apartments vary by as much as 10 or more degrees F due to the leaking windows and generally decaying conditions.

Someone asked about plugging in multiple outlets, the problem is when the existing circuits blow due to poorly planned load design. Try turning on your hair dryer at the same time your coffee-maker is going.

As for new construction, the ones we have looked at are a tossup. Lower ceilings (which they proudly boast are "western-styled") and fake veneer "paneling" that are already looking like a Chicago housing project.

And it is true that some of the newer buildings are using builing or even individual apartment water heating and independent meters. However, there are hundreds of thousands of those older buildings standing in hundreds of cities. The cost of rebuilding and infrastructure changes are far beyond the capacity of these governments to raze and rebuild.

[possum]

My wife is from northern Russia and she noted that the cold outside would often start before the heat. In other words, by early September, it would often be quite cool or even cold, and they would not start the heat until mid-September. In the spring, it would be the opposite: it would already be hot in May, but they would not stop the heat until a set date.

Truer words were never spoken.. And here in Siberia we usually get a cold snap the day after they shut off the heat..

[Aloe]

Yeah, my wife was a bit surprised that our house has two separate AC systems (up/down). People in Kyiv continually complained that their only control of their heat came from buying oil-filled or hot coil electric heaters. The same comments come from the expats with Russian time under their belts.

There are days when you have to be careful what is on top of the radiators and days when you can use them as unconfortable seating areas. Apartments vary by as much as 10 or more degrees F due to the leaking windows and generally decaying conditions.

Someone asked about plugging in multiple outlets, the problem is when the existing circuits blow due to poorly planned load design. Try turning on your hair dryer at the same time your coffee-maker is going.

As for new construction, the ones we have looked at are a tossup. Lower ceilings (which they proudly boast are "western-styled") and fake veneer "paneling" that are already looking like a Chicago housing project.

And it is true that some of the newer buildings are using builing or even individual apartment water heating and independent meters. However, there are hundreds of thousands of those older buildings standing in hundreds of cities. The cost of rebuilding and infrastructure changes are far beyond the capacity of these governments to raze and rebuild.

Ok i see what you mean by inconsistent heating, they do have a schedule when to turn the heat on in autumn and off in spring, but a radiator easily fixes that. I thought you meant stuff like sudden heat cut offs, what else would you call inconsistent. At least you can keep warm super cheap in Russia. Here in Belgium its a fearsome day when we have to turn on the heat cuz its gonna cost at least a thousand euro to get thru the winter, and im freezing my tushy off in this house in the summer, that never happened at home.
In Russia i lived in an old apartment building, never had any circuits blow although i used like 10 electrical sockets in my room alone, including a hair dryer and a radiator and computer and lamps all at the same time, im not sure if coffee maker consumes that much electricity, but i think its less than a radiator

[kievstar]

Some of the new houses in Kiev region about 30 minutes south / East of city center (where many politicians live) have great construction and large yards.  Prices are down and what was going for 2 million usd  you can get for 500,000 usd now.  400 square meters and 2 floors plus 2 car indoor garage.  Landscaping needs to be completed.  Not a bad deal since no property taxes.  Only issue is the association dues as majority of the houses in the subdivision are not sold.  You will see long term (maybe 5 years) that construction under 1,000 usd per square meter in Ukraine is market price.  Also, many of the old buildings in Ukraine will fall apart in next 20 years which will further decrease the price of housing as the risk of owning an expensive apartment when your neighbors have a cheap one.

There was a survey about college graduates in USA with a bachelors degree ten years from school and the top 150 schools had an average salary over 80,000 usd (doctors, lawyers were not in survey).  2 people married at 32 years old (10 years after bachelors degree) should be able to put 100,000 usd down and afford a 300,000 mortgage.  For the single people they should be able to put 50,000 usd down and 150,000 mortgage.  If you decide to work in a lesser pay field, you know what you will make in the future and you better marry a higher earner or live poorer. 

[ECOCKS]

Aloe:

Aside from the schedule of on/off, many radiators are clogged and leaking window frames are the norm. This results in inconsistent heating wihin the flats. Most people I know have supplemental, electric heaters to compensate for the difference. The construction standards here have done wonders for the window industry and the sale of portable heaters in the stores.

It is great that you had such wonderful electrical systems in your flat. Most people in Kyiv have only 2 circuits in their flats and turning on a heater, blow dryer and coffee-maker would blow them. Things are obviously different in your place.

[Sculpto]

I heard getting a flat in a Stalin house that was built by the German POWs is a good thing.

[possum]

I heard getting a flat in a Stalin house that was built by the German POWs is a good thing.

LOL.. Getting one for free, maybe.. Buying one in this day and age would be financial suicide..

[Sculpto]

why?

[Bitter-Sweet]

why?

They are pretty cool, cause they are really spacious, but they are old and need a lot of work to be done. And you might have to do this work again and again all the time, that's just a way to waste the money.

[possum]

why?

What Bitter-Sweet said.. Not to mention, it will become completely uninhabitable at some point in the near future.. Some of those buildings are already there..

[Aloe]

Aloe:

Aside from the schedule of on/off, many radiators are clogged and leaking window frames are the norm. This results in inconsistent heating wihin the flats. Most people I know have supplemental, electric heaters to compensate for the difference. The construction standards here have done wonders for the window industry and the sale of portable heaters in the stores.

It is great that you had such wonderful electrical systems in your flat. Most people in Kyiv have only 2 circuits in their flats and turning on a heater, blow dryer and coffee-maker would blow them. Things are obviously different in your place.

That is odd that people do not take care of the problems you mention, if it happens, why not fix it, why sit and suffer? My building was a regular 5 story panel house, like thousands of others in Moscow (they are all on a schedule to be destroyed because they are too old), so im pretty sure vast majority of people in those buildings dont have any problems, and they ARE one of the crappiest houses around in Moscow. The window frames are wooden but fine, so what you are describing may be typical for Ukraine, but not for Russia

[ECOCKS]

It gets a little weird when you go through the main entrance of what looks like a crackhouse and have to traverse the common area to get to those massive doors which open into a newly remodeled apartment. It's like being on the moon where you can step from absolute darkness (and cold) into total light and boiling heat.

I had a discussion with one of my brothers-in-law regarding fixing his apartment up when the building itself was falling apart. He said there was nothing they could do except hope the building would last for another 15 to 20 years. My concern was whether they would ever be able to sell it and salvage out their investment.

Ukraine talks about those plans to raze the Krushevkas (sp?) and other rapidly decaying housing but the sad truth is there is simply no money for it. When they can't supply the military with basic food and uniforms or maintain the railway system, there is little possibility of completing these grandiose schemes of rebuilding the infrastructure.

Ukraine has a big test coming with their EUFA 2012 commitments. Stadiums, airports, hotel rooms, street improvements, public transport and other projects. None of these are even remotely funded and the public investment necessary for hotel and stadium construction is severely constrained due to the credit and economic crunches we are experiencing..

A sad situation.

[Misha]

like thousands of others in Moscow ... so what you are describing may be typical for Ukraine, but not for Russia

Any description of how things are in Moscow will be by definition not typical of Russia 

[possum]

Any description of how things are in Moscow will be by definition not typical of Russia 

Touche, my friend.. Nothing like a Moscovite trying to convince you how good they have it in Russia..

[Aloe]

i lived in a small town with a colorful name Miass until i was 13.  Population 100k, but the town was divided in 2 parts, i lived in the smaller part with 10k people. Guess what ! I lived in a 5-story panel building of about 30 years of age there as well, and it was in even better condition than the building in Moscow. Again, none of the problems you mentioned. So i seriously doubt its the norm in Russia