Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[Gator]

'cult of provider seekers'

 

Good satire if you meant to ridicule these women as a broad generalization.

Jooky, there are some good women in this category who want a stable and friendly family life.  Some want to have children and stay at home to be a traditional mama without worrying about a roof over their heads.

And those with children in school want to work, to make some money, to not have to depend on a man who will let them down again.  

And most will say there's something wrong with a man who is over 40 and never been married.  Now that broad generalization can't be true, can it?

[GQBlues]

I'm starting to wonder about your message in this thread. You seem to have a negative view of young Russian women, as if they're spoiled princesses that can't do a thing on their own.

Where the heck did you read that from? I am beginning to believe you simply argue for the sake of arguing. For what it's worth, I even stated I do not believe there's such a thing as PRINCESS COMPLEX people seem to be suggesting. Looking for stability in life through marraige is far different than looking to be wined, dined, and pampered.

I didn't say all these women moved out and supported themselves while in school.

Hhhmmm.....oh yes you did. Or else I did inquire exactly what you meant by this when you said...

Honestly about 90% of the Russian women I've met finished their education and built their careers without anyone's help.

I qualified that if they did in fact lived at home, that's hardly doing things on their own without anyone's help? Do you agree or not? If you lived in your parent's home without the worries of paying rent/food while going to school - do you honestly qualify yourself as someone who finished your education and got yourself a carrer without ANYONE's help?

...or maybe you simply exaggerated this a bit to press whatever point you're making?

Some did, some lived with their parents, most stayed in school dorms, just like anywhere else. Sure, more young girls live with their parents longer than they they do in the US. Many (at least that I've met) contribute to living expenses while at home. That doesn't make them the parasites looking for that next provider that your making them out to be.

Who ever said young RWs are parasite? If these thoughts prevail in your head, keep it and don't pawn it up. It's no one else's but yours. Maybe you ought to read back upthread with what I actually stated.

You seem to be obssessed about defining the word 'provider' in a derogatory manner. How many times do you read statements by people who had relations with Russia, Russian women saying 'Russian women look at their man to be a provider!'? Do the majority of Russian women YOU know marry without consideration of their inamorata's ability to provide - bar none? Is that the point you're trying to make?

If you're going to tell me most young American girls make it through college without their parents help and support systems that aren't available in Russia such as student loans and easy to get credit, you've got to be kidding me.

Seriously, read back what I've said upthread. You've taken this to whole new path on your own. Most American graduates lately, acceptably in direct comparison to that of Russia, do in fact HAVE an advantage because of the reasons you cited. I even said that upthread which YOU even quoted.

The point I was making is to villify the notion that RWs are MORE MATURE than their western counterparts simply because of this comparison e.g. they have it much tougher. But the fact is, chances are great that they live with their families which in turn nearly levels the difficulty level with their western sisters, and thus hardly incite any accelaration of their state of maturity. To that, I said being more mature because of this is BS - and YOU agreed and said it's a croc of sh!t.

Personally, even if Russian women were looking at men as providers, that'd be alright with me. I don't have a negative view of this. But, it's just not the case. I don't buy it at all. Maybe in the bridal business, but not in Russia overall.

Fine. That's your opinion and you're definitely entitled to it. I even previously said I don't doubt your obesrvation. Does that mean EVERY Russian women (that's NOT in the bridal business) fit the same suit? And yes, even if they did - who ever said it was NEGATIVE?

Are you denying that MAYBE some Russian women (not in the bridal biz) see one of the benefit of getting married is to enable them to leave an otherwise cramped living condition of home? Are you also saying there are no longer young Russian women (not in the bridal biz) IN RUSSIA today that never saw an 'older man' likely to be a better 'provider' than one closer to her age? You never saw or heard of young russian women dating older Russian men in Russia, ever? You think this is NOT true in Russia? If this in fact exist, or existed in Russia, are you implying they dated, married, had a fling with older men because of any other reason other than improving their condition e.g. they're simply horny for older men?

[Misha]

Are you denying that MAYBE some Russian women (not in the bridal biz) see one of the benefit of getting married is to enable them to leave an otherwise cramped living condition of home?

They are some, but they are the relatively rare exceptions.

Are you also saying there are no longer young Russian women (not in the bridal biz) IN RUSSIA today that never saw an 'older man' likely to be a better 'provider' than one closer to her age?

Of course there are such women, but they are very rare. Most young RW will marry men within 5 years of their age.

You never saw or heard of young russian women dating older Russian men in Russia, ever? You think this is NOT true in Russia?

Yes, I have seen it, but only a couple of times in all the women I knew as friends and acquaintances.

If this in fact exist, or existed in Russia, are you implying they dated, married, had a fling with older men because of any other reason other than improving their condition e.g. they're simply horny for older men?

I don't quite know what your point is here. Again, young women with much older men is rare, comparable to the young women looking for dates on sugardaddy or whatever that site is. They exist, but they are far, far from the norm.

[GQBlues]

So how does this fit in with the 'cult of provider seekers'? Seems like a normal couple, where she might even contribute more to the pie than he does. Or does she not work?

8 months into their marriage, she quit her job and decided to work part time when he logged a few work backlog. Today, they are living in his grandparents one room flat because work had slowed down for him and money is not nearly enough to maintain that 20.0 flat.  She OTOH is now in the thought process of having their own children for some reason. Maybe a natural progression of life or maybe because three of their friends already had theirs...who knows.

Is this someone you would consider as somewhat atypical in Russia?

[GQBlues]

PS: If you believe the statistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mar_rat-people-marriage-rate

people in the US tend to marry slightly younger and more often than in Russia.

Most of the time, no. In this specific sampling - hardly. One consideration you need to factor in is the fact there's a wider demographic makeshift in the US that doesn't exist in Russia. People IN poverty (ghettos, trailer parks, skidrow) or uneducated folks have a tendency to marry early in life, which for the most part remove itself from the swat of samplings we're specifically talking about.

[Jooky]

Yes, I said:

Honestly about 90% of the Russian women I've met finished their education and built their careers without anyone's help

And that's a fact. Some did work their way through school, others lived at home, but they went on to move out, finish their education and build careers on their own. What I've seen is a far cry from what you said:

There's always the need for a secondary person to help them along. Husbands, babushkas, lover, etc...I never saw, met, or even heard of a RW in Russia who purposely left home at a young age, got a job, got an apartment, education, and became fully independent while at the same time make something of herself

For RW, there seem to be a constant search and need for the proverbial Provider. It's almost cultish.

I often wonder why can't they just make something of themselves first THEN look for a mate?

That sounds like a parasitic description to me, as if Russian women aren't capable of getting through life on their own. If you didn't mean all this in a negative light, then I'm reading you wrong, but I then I don't see why you'd preface it with "Without offending any resident RWs here".

Is this someone you would consider as somewhat atypical in Russia?

Moving in with parents because of harsh economic times, not too unusual. A woman leaving her job to work part time, amongst Russians I know, yes, especially during these times. It's just not practical. Does she plan to be a full time stay at home mom? If so, it's definitely unusual. I'd say more uncommon than in the US.

It doesn't surprise me though. Of course there are all kinds of people in Russia, but if you get the impression that most Russian women can't make something of themselves without some kind of provider, I ask again, where did you meet these women? Does this describe your wife's friends, other Russian women you met while searching, or the Russian women you've met in L.A.?

Is that the point you're trying to make?

The point is that despite Russia having a worse and imbalanced economy, women are no more or less capable or independent than in the US. If anything, they can depend less on men or anyone to provide for them and they do struggle more to get by. It's not normal for women to marry primarily because they need a new provider, and it's not normal for women to choose their man primarily because he has money.

Yes, these types of women exist, but they're in the minority from what I've seen. Most of them are probably already in the US.  :evil:

[Jooky]

Good satire if you meant to ridicule these women as a broad generalization.

I was poking fun at GQs statement.

Jooky, there are some good women in this category who want a stable and friendly family life.  Some want to have children and stay at home to be a traditional mama without worrying about a roof over their heads.

Definitely nothing wrong with all this in my opinion. It's just not typical in Russia. The traditional mama in Russia works. 

Also I think it's foolish to think that a sincere woman will compromise everything else to be with a provider. This is the biggest mistake men make looking for a Russian bride. Many do find that woman that will compromise. The problem is that compromise only lasts until the provisions or the need for them runs out.

That's one reason I take exception to what GQ stated here. First of all, because it just doesn't fit in with what I've seen, but also because it's dangerous for men to think that being a good provider is what it takes to score a young Russian bride.

And most will say there's something wrong with a man who is over 40 and never been married.  Now that broad generalization can't be true, can it?

It's absolutely true!  :evil:

[GQBlues]

Jooky-

Let me show you the flaw in your argument.

To support it, you made an ABSOLUTE, DEFINITIVE statement when you said...

Honestly about 90% of the Russian women I've met finished their education and built their careers without anyone's help

To make that even more clearer, you had to add the word 'honestly'.....

That's the foundation of your argument. Your argument baseline. But when it was contested, challenged, and corrected; you immediately retracted it by saying...

"... I didn't say all these women moved out and supported themselves while in school...."

 

Listen, Michael Jackson couldn't moonwalk faster than that.

You went from being honestly telling me with absolute certainty that 90% of the women YOU met built their careers without anyone's help; to, some lived with parents, MOST stayed in dorms - MOST - (how big are the dorms in any University in Novo that accommodated most of its student body). What's the name of it?

You need to stand back and read it yourself and you'll easily see you've contradicted YOUR OWN argument so it's reduced to nothing more than blowing smoke up a willing Canadian chihuahua's booty. Considering your quick retraction AFTER making such a bold, honest statement it became doubtful at best, bullsh!t at worst....

Here's another angle you can look at. In making an argument, what if I told you that 90% of the people I know and met in Los Angeles is African-American, what will that imply or suggest to you? Am I stating a fact that 90% of the people in Los Angeles are African-American? Now, what if I was challenged or corrected and I backpedalled as quickly as you did and said Well, some of them are Mulatos, some are Latinos, yeah some are blacks, MOST are sun-tanned Chihuahuas - how would you take that? If you just want to blow smoke to make an argument - that's fine...Just don't expect me to buy into it.

Take a poll around and ask anyone familiar with Russia, or even Russians themselves. Heck, let me ask YOU. Do 90% of the student body attending Universities actually live OUTSIDE their family's apartments while studying and fully supporting themselves? We know you had two answers to that question before, YES and NO, but thought maybe the third time is a charm.

Lastly, these women in your sampling that you said you met ( and likely hanged-out with if you knew them that well), what age sets are they? In their early 20s? Are they employees, friends, dates? It would be rather strange to be asking employees fairly personal Qs about life and living arrangements, don't you think? I can understand if they were either friends or dates, but who knows...

If you say 30s, that would roughly put them in the University days approximately what 6-7 years ago? Were you already in Novo then? Or, are you hanging out with 40+ year olds? That set would roughly put them during the fall of the iron curtain when they were in the Unis.

That sounds like a parasitic description to me, as if Russian women aren't capable of getting through life on their own.

No babe, keep the change on that one. It's really all yours...

but if you get the impression that most Russian women can't make something of themselves without some kind of provider, I ask again, where did you meet these women? Does this describe your wife's friends, other Russian women you met while searching, or the Russian women you've met in L.A.?

I said:

There's always the need for a secondary person to help them along. Husbands, babushkas, lover, etc...I never saw, met, or even heard of a RW in Russia who purposely left home at a young age, got a job, got an apartment, education, and became fully independent while at the same time make something of herself

*I* never saw, met, or even heard of a young RW who did all of the above - *without * a husband, maybe a lover, a mama/babushka (home assistance - papa?)  and had utterly and completely accomplished all of the above *all by herself*. Now, what are you really struggling with that statement? Are there women like that in Russia? chances are there are...How many? Who knows my guess will be not too many - maybe very few...You seem to suggest most of them are, 90%. I would say a few though I never saw, met or heard of them, while you seem to say contrary to me *BUT* with qualifiers. So in the end you're technically saying the same thing as me.. Where did we arrive with that?

Now let me turn and asked YOU a question. What have you been doing in Russia yourself all these years, what 6,7,8 years - 10? I believe the greater part of last year was work-related though the majority of the years before that wasn't. If you were dating all those years, was it casually or for marriage? If for marriage, why so long? Are you taking your time on that special someone, or are you well, taking your time on a few? Yes, I have other reasons why I asked the questions.

That's one reason I take exception to what GQ stated here. First of all, because it just doesn't fit in with what I've seen, but also because it's dangerous for men to think that being a good provider is what it takes to score a young Russian bride.

You really should've taken the time to read what I posted upthread. You could've saved yourself a lot of time.

Happy Labor Day!

[Gator]

it's dangerous for men to think that being a good provider is what it takes to score a young Russian bride.

With sincere RW, being a 'good provider' does not even guarantee a man will get to first base.  However, if he is not a good provider, he will not advance past first base IMO.

With insincere RW (GCG, short shelf life marriages, etc.), anything is possible.

The term "good provider" needs definition.  Being a good provider does not equate to being wealthy.  IMO, it means that the woman believes that the man will take care of the family.  It is a measure of the man's:

-  Generosity (a wealthy yet 'greedy' man is not a good provider),
-  Strength (confidence, leadership, problem solving),
-  Intelligence ('street smarts' carries as much weight as education),
-  Income (upon meeting a minimum acceptable lifestyle, perceived source and stability are more important than amount),
-  Goals (is he a family man?),
-  Baggage (kids from a prior marriage),
-  Health (important for old goats). 

I quickly thought of these as I rush out the door.  I am sure that there are more factors in the complex mind of women.

That's one reason I take exception to what GQ stated here.

I too have taken exception to a couple of GQ's points.  This is atypical, and I wonder what GQ has been smoking this week.

[Misha]

You went from being honestly telling me with absolute certainty that 90% of the women YOU met built their careers without anyone's help; to, some lived with parents, MOST stayed in dorms - MOST - (how big are the dorms in any University in Novo that accommodated most of its student body). What's the name of it?

You need to stand back and read it yourself and you'll easily see you've contradicted YOUR OWN argument so it's reduced to nothing more than blowing smoke up a willing Canadian chihuahua's booty. Considering your quick retraction AFTER making such a bold, honest statement it became doubtful at best, bullsh!t at worst....

Willing Canadian chihuahua's booty? Your postings are starting to delve into the bizarre. There is a world of difference between a woman staying in a dorm room while studying and your assertion that somehow every young woman in Russia is seemingly looking for a lover or a husband to accomplish anything in life and that all young RW are seeking rich old men to take care of them 

[Jooky]

Once again, since you want to be technical about one statement of mine.

In college, women I know stayed with parents, lived in dorms or had already moved out. But 90% of the women I know continued and finished their education (finishing college, higher education or specific career training) and built careers without anyone's help.

Is that clear now? My 'retraction' is in your imagination.

You don't believe there are dorms in Novo? You haven't heard of Akademgorodok? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademgorodok
It's an entire college town full of dorms and student shared apartments.

Most of the people I've met in Novo are in their 20s, some in their 30s. These include friends, dates and workers. I do ask my workers personal questions. I talk to them every day about all kinds of things. I hang out with them, meet their wives, girlfriends and family, and I don't think it's strange.

If you're limiting your observations to women in their early 20s, how can you contradict what Gator was saying about survival instincts of older women?

*I* never saw, met, or even heard of a young RW who did all of the above - *without * a husband, maybe a lover, a mama/babushka (home assistance - papa?)  and had utterly and completely accomplished all of the above *all by herself*. Now, what are you really struggling with that statement?

I struggle with your statement because:

- It's not what I've seen.
- You're making an argument that can be applied to both Russian men and Russian women, but are applying it only to women.
- Most married women work and share their finances with their husband. They don't rely on a husband any more than a husband relies on them. This is no different than the US.
- Supported by a lover? Yes it happens, but from what I've seen those type of women are rare aren't using this support to build careers.
- Young women supported by their babushka? Seriously? I've only known cases of the opposite.

You make a big deal about women (actually should be both men and women) living with their parents until they can finish school or find a good enough job. You seem to be contrasting this with women in the US. Right?

- You ignore the fact that many of these young Russians contribute to the household. They're not simply living off their parents.
- You seem to think this is a comfortable situation. I think it's part of their struggle.
- College for Russians is more of an extension of highschool than it is for Americans. Students start at a younger age, and a larger percentage of kids go to college.
- You're saying that women live with their parents until they can find their next provider, a husband. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not what I've seen. Most of the married women I've met moved out first, then married. Of course mostly I'm meeting single women.
- You're stretching 'living with parents while studying' into a 'constant search and need for a provider'. Do you make the same connection for women in the US whose parents help them to get started after highschool?

My questions:

- Do your wife's friends that married after college rely on their husband as providers? Are they stay at home wives and mothers?
- How about the Russian women you know in L.A.?
- Do you think that American women are more independent and capable than Russian women in general? Are they more willing to work rather than to stay at home?

What have you been doing in Russia yourself all these years, what 6,7,8 years - 10?

Since I think you already know, you're bending things (for example, I started my project in Novo 2 1/2 years ago, and have only made frequent trips to Russia for the past 5 years), and I don't see a connection between my personal life and the argument in this thread, I'll answer you in a PM.

[mies]

Willing Canadian chihuahua's booty? Your postings are starting to delve into the bizarre. There is a world of difference between a woman staying in a dorm room while studying and your assertion that somehow every young woman in Russia is seemingly looking for a lover or a husband to accomplish anything in life and that all young RW are seeking rich old men to take care of them 

I may be totally wrong, but I think he meant something different. To me it looks like he was talking of family support, not lover's. Woman living in dorm or with parents - are not "building their career without any outside help". Most families help their young generation - both males and females until those young guys and gals start working. Building career completely independent - would be an orphan from orphanage without any outside help. Or a child of alcoholics. Those rarely achieve something significant in life, and they rarely make it to college.

[Jooky]

Mies, maybe I'm also wrong, but the way I read it, he's contrasting Russian women with American women, who he thinks are more capable and independent.

Most families help their young generation - both males and females until those young guys and gals start working.

It's the same in the US. In addition we have other forms of support available and living expenses are cheaper relative to wages.

Russians live with a tougher economy and different educational system and culture. They tend to leave the roost a few years later than Americans. So what? I don't see where he jumps from that to Russian women having a constant need and search for a provider, do you?

I don't buy his statement:

I often wonder why can't they just make something of themselves first THEN look for a mate?

I think in general they can and do.

[GQBlues]

Once again, since you want to be technical about one statement of mine. In college, women I know stayed with parents, lived in dorms or had already moved out. But 90% of the women I know continued and finished their education (finishing college, higher education or specific career training) and built careers without anyone's help.

Jooky, you presented it as your baseline to deliver your point. The contradiction is all done by you, solely by you.

Is that clear now? My 'retraction' is in your imagination.

Imagined? Hardly. It's in ink. Just as you retracted it.

You don't believe there are dorms in Novo?

I know about Academy City. Nat took me there. It used to be the thriving communities for the academic elite and their families during the Soviet era. It is NOT a dorm. There are research centers and Universities there which have their own dormitories but Akademgorodg itself is NOT a dorm, it's almost a city. What I ask was, which one of the Uni dorms housed 90% of its student body?

If you're limiting your observations to women in their early 20s, how can you contradict what Gator was saying about survival instincts of older women?

No. I'm not. The majority of the women I spoke with in Russia were in their early - mid 30s before...short of 40s today. Lately, Nat's circle of friends both here and in Novo - age range 26/27 to 37.

But If what you're stating as true in Russia (if 90% of young women can fully support their lives during uni days - full life support), then my point that survival instincts is hardly on tap, yes? Not anymore or less than the average AW. Make sense?

I struggle with your statement because:

- It's not what I've seen.
- You're making an argument that can be applied to both Russian men and Russian women, but are applying it only to women.
- Most married women work and share their finances with their husband. They don't rely on a husband any more than a husband relies on them. This is no different than the US.
- Supported by a lover? Yes it happens, but from what I've seen those type of women are rare aren't using this support to build careers.
- Young women supported by their babushka? Seriously? I've only known cases of the opposite.

You struggle with it because you're going beyond that particular statement I made. Read my statement one more time if you're not sure. I specifically wrote 'etc' clearly suggesting all manner of life/living support from all manner of source which would INCLUDE assistance on any form from their family, husband, lovers, babushkas, etc.

You make a big deal about women (actually should be both men and women) living with their parents until they can finish school or find a good enough job. You seem to be contrasting this with women in the US. Right?

I wasn't making anymore a big deal of it with women than I do with the men. The women just happened to be WHO we were discussing.

- You ignore the fact that many of these young Russians contribute to the household. They're not simply living off their parents. - You seem to think this is a comfortable situation. I think it's part of their struggle. - College for Russians is more of an extension of highschool than it is for Americans. Students start at a younger age, and a larger percentage of kids go to college. - You're saying that women live with their parents until they can find their next provider, a husband.

*I* was not ignoring any other facets of realities of life in Russia. I stand behind my statements within the context it was presented. You go off in your own tangent BEYOND what I am saying. You are now clearly in your comfotable 'assumption' mode. I know this is a favorite pastime with you guys on these boards. Just like hiii98's thread, Jetlagged's thread, etc... There seem to be a prevailing rabid need for the men here to jump to conclusions and go off to damning assumptions just to justify their thirst to make judgment on what little script people say so they can *feed their egos* and hoping to make themselves feel good in the process. There's a ton of threads here clearly showing that. THIS thread is one good example.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not what I've seen.

Then what are you exactly taking an exemption with what I stated? WE both never saw that proverbial bear take sh!t in the woods Jooky - but guess what, it doesn't mean the Canadian chihuahua didn't get jiggy with it.

I saw one and stated it, you never did and stated it - I said no way - bears do sh!t in the woods - you said 90% of them don't. So here we are.

You're stretching 'living with parents while studying' into a 'constant search and need for a provider'.

No I am not. Again, what I said was there's a need, or even dependency if you prefer, of a secondary source of support because it is NOT as easy for a typical Russian woman, especially the younger ones, to be FULLY independent at that age set as you seem to be insinuating. Then, taking a Chihuahua cue, you bled that and subliminally implied that maybe *I* was hanging out with the bad crowd.

Frankly Jooky - THAT - I didn't expect from you. But I let these slide off my back fairly quickly and easily.

Do you make the same connection for women in the US whose parents help them to get started after highschool?

The answer to that I already gave upthread, including the student loans, CCs...but you must also factor in the fact in Russia there's an obvious imbalance in tuitions and university fees as compared to here in the US. So, all things being relative - it balances itself out in my mind between the sisters.

- Do your wife's friends that married after college rely on their husband as providers?

The one example I gave largely is. The other women in the circle all worked before along with hubbies but some lost their jobs because of the latest downturn and had since either acquired another, or are still searching, or doing others things because they're still unemployed.

- Are they stay at home wives and mothers?

2 are because of the infants' ages, one had already started looking for work. All the other ones I don't know.

- How about the Russian women you know in L.A.?

One of them specifically (that you met in Tahoe 2 years ago) actually came here on work visa before. Married a Russian while here and had since divorced. She worked odd jobs soon after that marriage like bartending, bookeeping etc..I don't know why she left or was axed by her former employer that gave her the work visa in the first place.

Anyway, after divorcing her hubby, she struggled to make a living for herself and her parents had to send her money. Then she met an Italian on vacation here in LA and promised her a life of family, or if you prefer, promised to be a *good provider* - she recently left for Italy to live with him.

Most of the others, a potential or prospective husband need to have at the least a solid means of stability and financial security to be considered as a viable social candidate for marriage - regardless of what they do on their own. SOME, though not many - ARE looking for an easy way out of tough times.

- Do you think that American women are more independent and capable than Russian women in general?

These days, in my neck of the woods, hell yes! I am almost certain, though not completely, obvious factors and forces are at work there e.g they didn't start on level ground; but at this point, comparatively - YES, in general - void of absolution.

Are they more willing to work rather than to stay at home?

The relatively younger AWs would rather die than give up their careers. A husband/marriage is looked upon as a complimentary extension of life and searched for MUCH later in their relative lives. We know of a  young Muscovite who is here on a student visa and was in the same class as Nat. Drives around in a Benz, lives in No. Hollywood. Her parents provide for all her living and schooling expenses from Moscow. She told Nat back then that she's tired of going to achool and wish she can just find a husband to support her. LOL. Maybe it was said in jest, who knows but the thought did crossed her mind. LOL. Something Lindsay Lohan or Paris Hilton would likely say.

Since I think you already know, you're bending things (for example, I started my project in Novo 2 1/2 years ago, and have only made frequent trips to Russia for the past 5 years),

Bending? No because I just don't know. I even told you in the recent past I completely forgot you told me you were going to Novo last time we were all together. So bending your Russian diaries was not what I was doing because I didn't know, thus I asked. The first time I've known of you was when you wrote your T/R about the Russian woman you took on a cruise in St Petersburg and she never smiled the whole trip. That was sometime before I met and married my wife. 6, 7 years? I really don't know.

[GQBlues]

I may be totally wrong, but I think he meant something different. To me it looks like he was talking of family support, not lover's. Woman living in dorm or with parents - are not "building their career without any outside help". Most families help their young generation - both males and females until those young guys and gals start working. Building career completely independent - would be an orphan from orphanage without any outside help. Or a child of alcoholics. Those rarely achieve something significant in life, and they rarely make it to college.

mies, thank you.

Complimentary life support sources can come from families, husbands, lovers etc There's a need for secondary life support, women themselves being the first. You can't make an absolute claim that any of these women are out there doing things fully on their own, without any help/support if in fact it is not true.

Then to try and convince me that 90% of women do this is not being straight.

[mies]

Mies, maybe I'm also wrong, but the way I read it, he's contrasting Russian women with American women, who he thinks are more capable and independent.

It's the same in the US. In addition we have other forms of support available and living expenses are cheaper relative to wages.

Russians live with a tougher economy and different educational system and culture. They tend to leave the roost a few years later than Americans. So what? I don't see where he jumps from that to Russian women having a constant need and search for a provider, do you?

I don't buy his statement:

I think in general they can and do.

Jooky, I will not argue with you, because if i argue too much you will take back invitation for you wonderful mouthwatering borsch.
I don't know who is more independent. There are many differences between FSU and USA societies. American woman are more capable in USA society. FSU women are more capable in FSU society.
An example from the top of my head (and I am not claiming this is common for USA - because I don't know what is common here). My ex-classmate in american grad school, an american girl, used to work as a waitress in a night-club/restaurant to pay her tuition because she didn't get assistantship or fellowship from university. Her family was quite well-off. They could easily afford paying her tuition and helping her with living expenses. However, they decided she should be independent. They helped her a bit during undergrad years - bought her a car as a present for starting college. And that was it. Taking into account that she did her undergrad in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico, where the nearest grocery store was 40min drive on highway - car was an absolute necessity. Without it - she won't be able to go to that undergrad school.
Now - transferring same example to FSU - you will not be able to find a well-off family that sent their daughter to work as waitress past midnight. Families may use networks to get a job for a girl in attorney's office, or something like that - clean, decent, professional, good start of career. Does it mean this particular american woman was more independent and capable than average FSU woman of same family status? I don't know. I think she is. But maybe she isn't.
I may be speaking too theoretical right now, and maybe you will not take it as credible information. Also, I do not remember the authors/titles of papers. But I'm pretty sure I've read in the past several articles on sociology about ability to adjust and social flexibility or something like that. The key idea was that lower class people are more capable to adjust at the lower social level, but because they were never exposed to various upper-level options - these options just do not come to their mind, and they are locked-in within the framework of options available to their social circle. For example - women who are living in villages at the border with Poland and Hungary - know very well what should be traded between the two countries. They know that this week onions are cheaper in Poland, and next week - potatoes will be. So they carry cigarettes to Poland, and onions back to Ukraine. And they make 20$ per trip or so. And they are happy and think this is a good income and they are smart. But had they explored some other options for making money - they could easily make more, with less effort. So yes - they are independent and adjusted. But is this the best type of adjustment or are they limiting their options?
Now back to FSU women in general - i think those who are more "adjusted" are usually also more "locked in" in lower-level routine. Namely - their adjustment does not do them good.

The statement you don't agree with - i'm both with you and with GQBlues on it. Most of FSU women do marry early, before they made something out of themselves. However, they do not marry much older guys who are already good providers. They are marrying potentially good providers. For example - marrying a medical student or a law student - will make both a girl and her parents happy and proud. Marrying an aspiring young artist with diploma of "circus&arts college" - not really. Many people marry during college years or right after. Why do they marry too early? maybe because extramarital "activities" still aren't viewed favorably by older generations. Definitely not for girls. And what the girl should do? stay virgin by the age of 30 when she made something of herself? Or be hopping from guy to guy? And if she already met a guy whom she love when she is 20 and he is 25 - why waiting 10 years? It's quite logical to marry if they want to be together, live together, and love each other. I know this example is a bit of a stretch but i think you got the point.  

[Jooky]

Once again, I said that 90% of the women I know finished their education and made something of themselves without help. I never retracted it, and still don't. I gave you examples in my PM. Do you need more?

I never said 90% of students live in dorms, but Academgorodok is full of dorms and student housing. If you're really interested in the names of them, look them up, and try to look somewhere more reliable than the source of information that tells you an average flat in Novosibirsk costs 20,000 rubles a month.

But If what you're stating as true in Russia (if 90% of young women can fully support their lives during uni days - full life support), then my point that survival instincts is hardly on tap, yes? Not anymore or less than the average AW. Make sense?

I'm not arguing that Russian women are more or less mature or survivalists than American women. That's individual. I do think Russians have it tougher in general, but most manage to pull through. Maybe that does make them more survivalists? I'm not going to enter that argument.

The vast majority of women I've met in Russia have made something of themselves. I didn't say this is representative of all of Russia, but it's easy to find women like this. That's in stark contrast with your claims. I don't see a big difference between the US and Russia in this regard.  

The examples you mentioned back in Russia of women taking care of infants then looking for work, or losing their jobs because of the economy are normal (happens here all the time too). I don't see how that shows a need for a provider. The examples you gave in the US, like the spoiled Muscovite, doesn't surprise me, but that's not typical. Some are looking for an escape from tough times? Hell yeah, I agree. I think it's much more common amongst Russian women that seek foreign husbands. That's all I was getting at.

You think American women are more capable and independent then Russian women. I don't. I think it's about the same. There are all kinds.

I gave you examples of women I know, you did the same, and it does nothing to change my mind. The way I see it the type of career oriented women you know in L.A. are the equivalent of the type of women I know in Moscow. Comparing a specific group of women in L.A. to a specific group in Novosibirsk isn't a valid comparison. You don't think are a tons of women like that Moscow princess you mentioned already in L.A? Come on! Go crash a UCLA frat party.  

At least now you should now know of a few Russian women (that I told you about) that made something out of their lives without help.

[Jooky]

Mies, I have nothing to argue about with what you said. 

Women going after doctors or lawyers over a circus arts student or naked fire dancer () happens all the time in the US too. Many people in the US get married at young ages as well, just not so much amongst the educated living in big cities like L.A.

About extramarital 'activities' being frowned upon in Russia...  I'll keep my mouth shut on that one, but I have a gut feeling GQ would agree with my observations on that. 

[mies]

I don't discuss the fact of sex out of marriage, i was talking about reaction of parents.

[Jooky]

I know... it just doesn't seem to stop anyone. 

[mies]

I know... it just doesn't seem to stop anyone.  

 
when youngsters are going out, parents first ask many questions, then start telling "why don't you invite M. for lunch/dinner?", and if dating last for longer time - parents tell "so when are you going to get married? What are you waiting for?"
My mom's first comment on any male friend of mine was of a type "he can be good addition to our family" or "but he won't be a good husband". I think that in many cases parents and social environment put pressure on young people to get married early. And somewhat limits space for experimenting. For example - it's ok to tell parents "we are not ready to think about marriage yet" or "we were planning to be together but broke up", and not ok to tell "don't ask me about marriage - he's just a great shag and i need him only for physiology" or "i don't even remember his name, what marriage are you talking about?"

[Misha]

I may be totally wrong, but I think he meant something different. To me it looks like he was talking of family support, not lover's.

Yes, but earlier in his postings, he claims that somehow all women, or at least most of them, are out looking solely for a provider.

[Misha]

I know about Academy City. Nat took me there. It used to be the thriving communities for the academic elite and their families during the Soviet era. It is NOT a dorm.

It is not a dorm, but there are many dorms located there. Here, in this link for example, http://www-sbras.nsc.ru/sbras/akadem/objects/obraz1.html, you can see photos of three different dorms located there  In this article, http://www.sibcity.ru/?news=23237&line=building&page=0, you can read about a new dorm they are building. This is what they have to say about the new dorm building: "Общежитие будет насчитывать 9 этажей и сможет вмещать 900–1000 человек — комнаты рассчитаны на 1-2 человека, в них будут небольшая ванная комната и место для маленькой кухни. Для сравнения: в одно старое общежитие НГУ помещается порядка 300–350 человек. Сейчас в НГУ учится 6500 студентов, с появлением нового корпуса руководство университета планирует увеличить эту цифру до 8500." The new building will be 9 stories high and will house between 900 to 1000 students, which is more than the existing buildings which house 300-350 students. As you can see there are dorms in Akademgorodok and there are already students living in those dorms. In other words, you may have been there, but you clearly did not truly understand what you were seeing.

[GQBlues]

Jooky said:
You don't believe there are dorms in Novo? You haven't heard of Akademgorodok? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademgorodok
It's an entire college town full of dorms and student shared apartments
----------------------------------

I said:
I know about Academy City. Nat took me there. It used to be the thriving communities for the academic elite and their families during the Soviet era. It is NOT a dorm. There are research centers and Universities there which have their own dormitories but Akademgorodg itself is NOT a dorm, it's almost a city. What I ask was, which one of the Uni dorms housed 90% of its student body?

-----------------------------------

Chihuahua came along denser than a forgotten molasses in the middle of January, said:

It is not a dorm, but there are many dorms located there. Here, in this link for example...<snipped for the sake of sanity>.... you can see there are dorms in Akademgorodok and there are already students living in those dorms. In other words, you may have been there, but you clearly did not truly understand what you were seeing.




Why must Chihuahuas persist to bark for no apparent reason? OY, stay thirsty my friends.

[Jooky]

Why do insist on the name calling? Your maturity and credibility, regarding both women in Russia and America keeps dropping.

If you really think I'd bother to ask anyone the name of the dorm they lived in, you don't understand the difference between starting and finishing education, you truly imagine I'm saying all Russian women fit the profile of those that I've met and you seriously believe the bull*snip* you've said about Novosibirsk (housing prices, lack of dorms, dependent women) you have been smoking something this week.

Since you don't get it, I'll explain to you: I presented my experiences as a contrast to your claims, not as an example of what all Russian women are like. There are all kinds of Russian women as there are American women. You're comparing women not only from different countries but from different situations and walks of life. Compare them with my friends in Moscow and you get a different story.

You seem happy that Mies supports your claim of young marriages, but she's from Ukraine, not Russia. The statistics (which you disallow in your mind) agree with Mies about Ukraine, but they don't agree with your assessment of marriages in Russia.

You posted nothing to support your original claim. The women you described in Russia, except for one, all worked when they could (some temporarily caring for infants, some losing jobs and doing other things in the meantime) or 'you don't know'. Maybe they didn't take every step without some help, but they're working and contributing, just like most Russian and American women right? Hardly a description of women constantly needing a provider.

Unfortunately, I've come to expect that when you fail to support your points, your argument devolves into useless personal attacks. I could see it when you tried to drag my personal life into this thread and it just gets sillier. I'm going to bow out of this one before you freak out like I've seen you do before.