Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[Gator]

Almost all [list of sexiest women] are in their 20s. A few are older.......Lots of men in their 30s and 40s. A few in their 50s and a few in their 20s.

How can you explain this age discrepancy?

Erica Jong's quote explains it indirectly,

You see a lot of smart guys with dumb women, but you hardly ever see a smart woman with a dumb guy.

[/list]

[mies]

How can you explain this age discrepancy?

i can give you my interpretation. It's your choice whether to believe it.
the women who are voting online for guys - are usually housewives of around 30+ - they pick a guy who in their dreams can be their "ideal husband".
men who are voting online for women - are horny teenagers - they pick women with whom they can get best sex.

Also - there are certain things in a society that are allowed for men, but not allowed for women. Traditionally the two such things were marrying an "exotic" someone from colony of an empire, or marrying a much younger person.
Men could marry an exotic woman, or much younger woman, and society would accept it.
Women could not marry an "exotic" man or much younger man and keep her place in her social surrounding. On a few instances when it was happening - women were ostracized.  
I do not remember how this discrepancy is explained, but it is clearly socio-cultural, and has nothing to do with tastes of women for older/non-exotic men, and tastes of men for younger/exotic women.
I do not believe that men and women are ruled by fundamentally different laws of physical attraction.
I don't believe the stuff about square frame and large jaw either.

out of top sexy women list i know only Adriana Lima, and Britney Spears.
among men's list - i like Gabriel Aubry and David Beckham. The rest 48 do not look attractive for my taste.
If i were picking sexiest men - the top one would be Mick Jagger. That doesn't mean that i'd find attractive any other man born in 1943.

 

 

[Blues Fairy]

Here's a list of sexy men as chosen by women.

http://allwomenstalk.com/guess-who-the-sexiest-men-celebrities-are/

Why isn't Hugh Laurie on the list?! 

[Misha]

Whale tail?

Nope.

[Jooky]

It's your choice whether to believe it.

I don't believe it.  

Here's why. You can view the membership of that women's talk website and they don't look like 30+ housewives to me. Also, many women's fashion and gossip magazines put together similar lists, and they definitely have young women reading and voting in their polls. The men's magazine, FHM, is not a teenagers' magazine. You can find similar lists in GQ, Sports Illustrated and other men's magazines. These aren't for horny teenagers. They're for horny grown men.  

My explanation is simple. Men tend to be attracted to younger women. Women tend to be attracted to older men. I don't mean everyone and I don't mean age differences of 30 years. I mean slight age differences of a few to five or even ten years. I've noticed this since highschool. The Freshmen girls had crushes on the Seniors. The Senior girls went to college parties. College girls went after teaching assistants and professors and so on.

A few posters mentioned marriages in ancient times. Considering life expectancies hovered around 30 years until relatively recent times, large age differences were hardly possible and definitely not common. Age differences of 5 to 10 years, yes. Much more than that was exceptional.

Your own top sexy pick of Mick Jagger doesn't fit with the idea that a woman prefers a young smooth skinned muscle bound stud over an older looking man. Neither does Blues Fairy looking for Hugh Laurie on the list of sexy men.  

[mies]

My explanation is simple. Men tend to be attracted to younger women. Women tend to be attracted to older men.

i don't buy that women are attracted to older men.

Do you know how these polls work? Because I do )
Usually readers are offered 100 people to choose 50 from. If you are offered 100 men of over 40 - who are all famous actors - naturally you cannot pick young guys of 20yo with flat stomachs and sexy butts who are aspiring models no one heard of.
Men are offered photos of young chicks - so they choose young chicks.

Regading FHM magazine and such - I read this magazine too. I regularly buy it, read, and then pass to my husband So what? That doesn't make me go and vote for girls in it. The men who vote are usually men who have much of useless time at their hands and who cannot afford to get a same sexy chick for night. Who are these guys? horny teenagers, or maybe poor older dudes. THat's how i see it.

My explanation is simple. Men tend to be attracted to younger women. Women tend to be attracted to older men. I don't mean everyone and I don't mean age differences of 30 years. I mean slight age differences of a few to five or even ten years. I've noticed this since highschool. The Freshmen girls had crushes on the Seniors. The Senior girls went to college parties. College girls went after teaching assistants and professors and so on.

that's because power is the sexiest thing in the world. In all those cases from your high-school or college - all these men looked/seemed more powerful for girls in question than the guys of the same age as girls were.

my own choice of mick Jagger has little to do with his body or age. That's why i said that other men of his age, or even looks will not be attractive for me. For me he is an "icon of style", so to say.

[Misha]

Considering life expectancies hovered around 30 years until relatively recent times, large age differences were hardly possible and definitely not common.

Keep in mind, that the reason that life expectancy was so low, was because of infant mortality. Somewhere close to half of all children died before the age of 5. If you made it to adolescence, your odds improved significantly and you were likely to live well past the age of 30.

[Jooky]

Meis, I actually agree with much of what you're saying. Except for when you say:

I do not believe that men and women are ruled by fundamentally different laws of physical attraction.

The fundamental difference is that while men are primarily ruled by pure physical attraction, women are ruled by other forms of attraction that transcend and affect the physical.

I think Mick Jagger is the good example. For you he is sexy as an icon of style. I know other women that feel the same about him and Steven Tyler of Aerosmith. Because of their style and attitude they become physically attractive. If these guys were gas station attendants they wouldn't be sexy at all.

As you say, power is the sexiest thing in the world, and age and attitude can physically reflect power. I've heard women tell me they like a man with a bit of wrinkles or grey hair because they look more mature, more distinguished, more sophisticated, basically more powerful, and power usually comes with age.

I'll give another example. A few weeks ago I watched a silly show on tv where couples dated in the dark. In the dark, three women chose the same man. When the lights were turned on, this guy was a young personal trainer, smooth skinned with 6 pack abs as described above. What happened? All three women rejected this guy, their main complaint being that he looked too young, too boyish, too innocent.

Men don't think this way. Take a hot woman off a men's magazine sexiest list and put her behind a counter at the grocery store, men will still find her hot. Take a plain looking woman and give her power and style, she doesn't become sexy.

[JR]

One ignores the 99.999% who lost, not comprehending that your odds are also the same as theirs.  For every man who pursued a large age gap relationship and succeeded, there are countless others who did the same and failed.  You have to ask what is unique and special about you that gives you better odds. Of course every man likes to think he is unique and special and thus not subject to the odds, but do a reality check, look around and really think about it.

This is one of the HUGE pitfalls of ANY extreme in relationships. You must look inwards and accept NO BS as to why you are doing what you are doing. If you can't come to terms with all the hurdles then you need to turn a few pages and write another story. If you two fit together like a hand and glove then the age difference means squat. If you don't then having the exact same birthdate means.....you guessed it, squat.

In the end the two of you must decide what is right for the both of you. BUT DON'T KID YOURSELF! ! ! Do not justify or make excuses. All you're doing if putting a noose around your own neck and it'll be nobodies fault but yours.

[Boethius]

To avoid being chauvinistic, one can also say....

A 23 year old hottie with innocent lips, flat stomach and a nice breasts is physically more appealing than a 43 year old with serious camel toes.

Did I touch a nerve?  Seriously, most women in their forties have full knowledge of the fact the peak of their beauty is beyond its prime.  Most women are okay with that.  It is only an issue for women who relied solely on their beauty for validation, and those are a definite minority.

My post was not about validating older women, but merely to point out that youth is, by definition, more physically appealing in both men and women than age.  


Jooky, as mies rightly pointed out, your “polls” are nonsense.  The choices are from a group of celebrities.  Did you notice Tom Ford on that list?  Only fashionistas would know who Tom Ford is, and they would all know he is gay.  Am I to assume, using your logic, that women lust after 40 something gay men?  Further, the average 45 year old man does not look like Johnny Depp, (who outpolls Brad Pitt).


To my knowledge, there has been only one poll of women where they were asked to choose the man they found most attractive.  The winner?

  


Now, I fully appreciate this and admit my own bias, as in the above photo, Sean Connery looks like he could be my beloved's older brother (but for Mr. Connery's big ears, dark brows, and beard).  

At the time of the poll, Sean Connery was just shy of his 70th birthday.  Yet, I don’t notice women of any age flocking to jump the bones of dedushkas.

Here's why. You can view the membership of that women's talk website and they don't look like 30+ housewives to me. Also, many women's fashion and gossip magazines put together similar lists, and they definitely have young women reading and voting in their polls. The men's magazine, FHM, is not a teenagers' magazine. You can find similar lists in GQ, Sports Illustrated and other men's magazines. These aren't for horny teenagers. They're for horny grown men.  

My explanation is simple. Men tend to be attracted to younger women. Women tend to be attracted to older men. I don't mean everyone and I don't mean age differences of 30 years. I mean slight age differences of a few to five or even ten years. I've noticed this since highschool. The Freshmen girls had crushes on the Seniors. The Senior girls went to college parties. College girls went after teaching assistants and professors and so on.

That is not correct.  Most young women marry men close to their ages.  In fact, in almost all of Europe (and I include Turkey in this list, though  it is not culturally European) and North America, the average age difference in a first marriage is 3.3 years (the largest gap, in Turkey) or less.  In the US, in one quarter of first marriages, the bride is a year or two older than the groom.  Large age differences are more common in second marriages.

A few posters mentioned marriages in ancient times. Considering life expectancies hovered around 30 years until relatively recent times, large age differences were hardly possible and definitely not common. Age differences of 5 to 10 years, yes. Much more than that was exceptional.

Socrates was 70 when he was condemned to death.  Aristotle died at 82.  I use these as known examples from ancient times.  H. Lancashire studied this and wrote a book on the subject.  He studied the average age from about the 12 or 13th century (can’t recall offhand) to the early 19th century, all across Europe.  The average age of death, fairly consistent throughout that period, was around 64, varying +/- a couple of years throughout the centuries.

The fundamental difference is that while men are primarily ruled by pure physical attraction, women are ruled by other forms of attraction that transcend and affect the physical.

Don't kid yourself.  If you asked a young woman who her "dream husband" would be, she would envision a tall, slim, handsome young man, not a guy with middle age spread and a big wallet.

Women do look for someone who can provide for them economically, which is why confidence is important to women.  However, they usually look for that in men close to their own ages.

I'll give another example. A few weeks ago I watched a silly show on tv where couples dated in the dark. In the dark, three women chose the same man. When the lights were turned on, this guy was a young personal trainer, smooth skinned with 6 pack abs as described above. What happened? All three women rejected this guy, their main complaint being that he looked too young, too boyish, too innocent.

He probably had a feminine face.   Had he looked like this -



the story in all likelihood would have been different.

[Jooky]

Those polls are about ideals of beauty, and if women in general did not agree with them, there would be a change in methodology.

Considering many women I grew up with around the SF Bay Area would complain about 'the good ones' being gay, yes women can lust after gay men. These aren't polls of 'who is your ideal husband'.  

This is the guy women on that show labelled as 'too young':

http://static.tvguide.com/MediaBin/Galleries/Shows/A_F/Da_Dh/Dating_In_The_Dark/crops/dating-in-the-dark3.jpg

Go ahead and say he looks feminine. That's a matter of opinion. I couldn't say either way. I would think most women would find a toughened looking masculine man to be more attractive that a young wrinkle free guy, but you're the one that stated otherwise.

Don't kid yourself. If you asked a young woman who her "dream husband" would be, she would envision a tall, slim, handsome young man, not a guy with middle age spread and a big wallet.

I don't kid myself. You simply fail to understand that I'm not writing about attraction to dumpy middle age men or large age differences. I agree that women look for men close their age, but from what I've seen just as most women prefer taller men, they prefer a bit older men (a symbolic year or two, or a few more than that). I recall that some of the women who cried out the most against 'age differences' on a board similar to this one were dating or married to men that were 5-10 years older than them.

In most relationships today, the man is older than the woman. Most women marry men close to their age, but they are still usually older men. For age gaps larger than a few years there are more relationships between older men and younger women then vice-versa. If you look on any normal dating sites you'll see that women typically look for men from close to their age to around 10 years older. The bias is usually towards older. For example I just looked on match.com the first 10 entries for a search in San Francisco ages 25-35 show:

34 year old looking for 31-41
27 year old looking for 26-31
31 year old looking for 30-39
32 year old looking for 29-45
32 year old looking for 35-42
29 year old looking for 29-39
33 year old looking for 33-43
25 year old looking for 28-35
27 year old looking for 28-35
31 year old looking for 32-42

This is consistent with what I've seen and what I'm saying. Any statistics you can dig up will show these things. Show me some proof otherwise.

My post was not about validating older women, but merely to point out that youth is, by definition, more physically appealing in both men and women than age.

In your last post you imply that masculinity is more attractive to women than simply youth. I agree with that. Masculinity often comes with a bit of age. Don't get all worked up, I'm not talking about dedushki or pot bellied middle aged farts, but many of the men on that celebrity poll are good examples.

I've heard women say before that an older rugged Sean Connery was more attractive than the younger version of himself. It's an extreme example, but do you disagree?

If I asked a young woman about who her dream husband was, she'd probably name one of those 40 something year old celebrities like George Clooney, Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt.

[mies]

Men don't think this way. Take a hot woman off a men's magazine sexiest list and put her behind a counter at the grocery store, men will still find her hot. Take a plain looking woman and give her power and style, she doesn't become sexy.

actually - i dont' agree with you. Take Kate Moss - she looks a regular junkie. If man meets her at the dark alley - he would not think she's hot. With her money, power and style - she's ranked among top sexiest women of recent years. There are many women who do not attract attention when they dress like housewife, and look absolutely stunning when they have power, style, and money. Same rule works here as with Mick Jagger.

Regarding the icons of style. The situation is just a bit more complex and delicate. I've heard that many men evaluate the sexy women on the basis "i'd have sex with her if i could". I cannot speak for all women, but for me thinking that somebody is sexy does not always imply that i'd want sex with this person if i could. Nor that i'd want to live with this person. Maybe not a very good example - but if you take the range of addictive substances- i think that heroin is the most addictive, but i'd never want to do it - i'm completely fine with coffee. Still, that doesn't make me think that coffee is stronger or more addictive than heroin.
I can easily envision myself being with somebody of David Beckham looks - because my first boyfriend (who, sadly, died many years ago) looked very much like him. Same body type, same face features, same age. My husband is of different type of masculinity, but he is also superhot and super sexy by both classic and contemporary beauty standards. And i am very happy being married to my husband and living with him. i'd never want to be together with somebody like Mick Jagger, even though i think he is extremely sexy. So for me - sexyness of Mick Jagger has very different nature than sexyness of David Beckham or other normal fit-looking young/my age guys.

another twist with celebrities - most young girls do not know what is the actual age of Brad Pitt, nor how does he look in the morning after a night of drinking. They pick the guy who looks well younger than his age. Same with woman - if you were shown a woman well taken care of by cosmetologists, with very skillfully applied makeup - she may easily pass for you as 25yo, while in reality she can be 35-40.

[Jooky]

Kate Moss is seen as sexy because she's slim, dressed up, made up and touched up to look sexy, not because of her power. Giving a woman power and money doesn't make a plain housewife look better. Professional make up and a sexy dress does.

You seriously think that men are attracted to power over looks? You said that for women, power is the sexiest feature. You think men feel the same about women? Really?

I understand and agree with your other comments and especially earlier when 48 out of 50 men from that sexy list didn't cut it for you. I think men are more uniform and objective in their view of beauty. Take your typical Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and few men will say the women photographed are not hot. Take a list of hot male celebrities and you'll find more dissention in women's opinions. I think it's because women are more individual in their tastes, they are more attracted to other features and these features affect more how they physically view a man.

That's all I'm saying and it's the only explanation I can find for why so many women find me sexy. 

Back to the original thread, I don't believe for a second that 20 something year old girls back in the States are using Ken for great sex or that 20 something year olds in Ukraine are chasing him for his looks. I do hope he comes back to answer some questions and that we can help him out.

[Vinnvinny]

Ken went to a social for chrissakes. That's like setting out a barracuda in a pool full of sardines. He even said he dated a few of them before actually retreating to this girl's city to see her. Meaning he met her at the social and couldn't quite go because there were more unfinished businesses to attend to. One had to go through the roster, you know. Big deal - men go to socials specifically for these types of activities. Why else would he be packing 'Viagra'?

Really? Is that a fact or just your opinion? I have been to socials and in my experience there were all types of men there from the weirdo who you wouldn’t want to leave your child with to the Policeman who came to spread the word of the Lord. What was your experience?

First off, vinnvinny, I appreciate you citing your experience.  It gives some credence to your opinions.  But I would like to comment that the age gap may have indeed been the underlying issue to the ultimate reasons you broke up.  Just a thought.

You know Scott, in retrospect you could be right. Maybe the lawyers citing adulterous behaviour, my drinking habits and lack of personal hygiene were just being kind to me. 

Back to the original thread, I don't believe for a second that 20 something year old girls back in the States are using Ken for great sex or that 20 something year olds in Ukraine are chasing him for his looks. I do hope he comes back to answer some questions and that we can help him out.

Do you really think he will listen? He came asking for advice and we just about unanimously told him to move on yet he has ignored it and spent the next 4 hours webcamming with ‘My girfriend’ her telling her what we were saying. The guy is beyond help IMHO. His willingness to gloat about the condoms and Viagra story after all the negative comments he received should leave you in no doubt.

Ken. I am sure you are a great guy in every other situation but your lack of nous in the circumstances you describe just goes to show why the ‘taking advantage of stupid Western men’ industry is alive and flourishing in the FSU.

[kryten41]

This post is in the "QUESTIONS TO RUSSIAN LADIES" part of this forum--there is no reason for the original poster to pay any attention to all the unsolicited comments by men.

[KenC]

Kens1958,
As my name has been mentioned here more than once, I thought I would post.  I hope you are still following your thread.  You have received some very good advice here (and some goofy thoughts too).  Par for the course here at RWD.  Your situation has some similarities to my story with a few major differences.  I will first give you a snapshot of my story and then a few opinions.

I met Lena on line via a website.  I called her on a lark with no serious intentions.  Over a few months of phone conversations, we became good phone friends.  I went to visit her around Xmas in 98.  I was not necessarily thinking that anything would come from it other than a friendship as she was 21 and I was 46.  I looked at the first trip as an adventure more than a wife seeking mission.  But what the hey, I was single and viral, so I arranged to meet other women while I was there. (All older than Lena BTW)

Well, I couldn't have been more wrong because there WAS an instant attraction both ways.  Much as one of the RW posted up thread, Lena has told me she "knew" I was the man for her when I walked through the door.  As for me, I was wowed totally by her and pulled out all stops to woo her.  There was much passion displayed both ways, but no sex on the first trip.  She also used the line "no sex before marriage" at which I laughed at her because I knew better but would not push the issue on that trip.

She did introduce me to her Mom.  (Her dad worked nights so I did not meet him on the first trip)  Even though her Mom was only a few years older than I, she fully endorsed and even encouraged Lena that I was a good man.

I met Lena again in Moscow the following Spring where we both fell hopelessly in love.  I had huge doubts about our long term possibilities because of the age gap.  Rather than doing a K-1 (too much commitment for me), I arranged for a student visa for Lena to come the the States.  She never returned to Russia other than to visit.  We married later that year.

We remained married for 10 years and most of that time was a dream come true for the both of us.  It was not a perfect marriage, but a good and strong one.  Yes, there were some difficulties due to the age difference but most of the difficulties were regular marriage problems with a few cultural ones thrown in too.

Last year I was thrown a triple whammy.  The economy put my business in the crapper and I had some severe medical problems.  These two led to Lena re-acessing her situation and deciding she didn't love me any more.  We split up physically and emotionally and the divorce is still pending in the court system.

The break up was devastation to the both of us and it was handled relatively decent from both sides.  We parted as friendly as anyone could IMO.

One of the fine ladies here was the first to point out some things to me.  In their usual Russian bluntness, she said that Lena had used me and as my usefulness diminished she was ready to move on with her life without me.  Even with all my rationalizations at the time, she was correct.  It was a good marriage as long as everything was going well.  Once some difficulties arose, she bailed.

Now some and maybe you, would think that if they got 10 good years out of a marriage to a young hottie, they would be satisfied.  I'm here to tell ya, it ain't true.  Of course I have some good memories from the experience, but those memories don't keep me warm at night. Today I find myself 10 years older and back to square one.  A question of whether large age gap marriage has a "shelf life" is a very good one to think about.  Also keep in mind that our relationship was red hot from the beginning and she showed no ambivalence as your girl has.  Be careful of successfully wooing a mildly interested woman.  Best of luck to you.
KenC

[neo]

KenC,

Sorry to hear about your divorce, Having been away from RWD for over a year thats the first I knew about it. my marriage went to divorce this year for identical reasons, we only had a 6 year age gap but the situation was identical, russian women can be both pragmatic, hard and self-surviving. 5-10 years of marriage can mean nothing to them once you "cease to be of service".

my marriage went down this year in identical circumstances and there was only a 6 year age gap.

I think both cases are a warning flag to the OP and others, simply concentrating on issues like age and beauty are going to make you miss out on the girls who would make your best life partner - very often pretty girls get a lot of attention and can end up pretty vain or damaged goods, everything may seem to be find for 5 or even 10 years as in KenC's case but if they walk out when you need them most exactly what is that love worth???

I can tell you the answer to this, less than nothing - I think about all the really nice girls i have met over the years with really good family values who i passed over for not being tall enough, exciting enough, sexy enough or some other pointless reason and I think how bad i felt in hospital on my own while my wife was out shagging a spanish ferrari salesmen.

It really doesnt matter how old a woman is, how pretty she is or how much you enjoy doing her doggy style over the sink - if she isnt your best friend, doesnt have a good heart and won't be there when you are at your most vunerable then you might as well get a dog.

[GQBlues]

Really? Is that a fact or just your opinion? I have been to socials and in my experience there were all types of men there from the weirdo who you wouldn’t want to leave your child with to the Policeman who came to spread the word of the Lord. What was your experience?

Well, based on your personal experience and summation:  Speaking of absolutes, I'm on the pickle as to which extreme in your sampling is worst. Speaking of generalities, what do those two extremes average to? That's from the men's side.

From the women's side, please feel free to enlighten us. Female attendance extreme sampling from you is waited upon with bated breath. Though seriously I have little doubt extremes and averages ain’t going to be any prettier either.
 
So please continue...

You see, I've no experience going to seedy Korean massage parlor either (do you?) but based on other people's summation, like what you just gave regarding men attending socials (females notwitstanding), it doesn’t really take much to get a great perspective into its activities, would you agree?

Unless of course the OP was clearly misled and mistaken for packing a bag full of condoms and Viagra.

What reason/s would I ever possibly have to experience socials?

But what about you, what was/were your reason/s for wanting to experience it? Which extremes in your sampling did you feel a most intimate belonging to?

[kens1958]

To everyone who shared.... Thank you. Yes I continue to read every post with great intrest...
Ken C, Thank you for telling of your experience. I am sorry to hear of your divorce...... In my town Russian woman have a reputation for being just that way.... (I don't know .. but I think that it might be a cultural thing based up on there contitions in FSU.) However I have noticed that American woman can be just the same....

Neo .. also sorry to hear about your devoice....

I agree with all that friendship and a true relationship are essential to any marriage..... so is a strong commitment and family values....

When I was in Ukraine... I met many jaded Americans and Europeans   who told countless stories of being led along by FSU woman and eventually taken to the cleaners.....But still they were looking for the next one?
When I went to the socials I met men that made me cringe and I met men that I developed great friendships with....
I met several men that were going back to FSU looking for a second FSU wife to replace the one that they had just divorced..... There attitude was if it last 10 years then it is as good as marring and American woman .... only my wife will be more beautiful and sexxy....
Guys I do not have any answers..... That is why I asked the question...... I have no idea what I will decide to do tomorrow ..... I just take it one day at a time.......
I do have a goal in mind ... but first I must understand the playing field and see what is right for me.....
I would like to recommend a great book about human pairing that was recommended to me many years ago.... I am re reading it now..... It is "The Evolution of Desire" by "David M. Buss"

I probably will not post to this subject again .... because you have all answered my questions very well.. but I will read your post .... Thank you

By the way.... I want to state for the record ... that before ever going to FSU on a tourer I read this forum and I had correspondence with many woman.......and several phone calls..... they all professed there love .... but none were prepared to meet with me when I showed up in FSU...... I went to FSU to see the land for my self and to try to seaperate the wheat from the chaff......
Now I will always preferr to meet in person as soon as possible ..... and then build a relationship......

Thank's again to every one who post.... it has been informative and helpfull 

Ken

[KenC]

Ken,
I want to tell you that you are WAYYYYYYYY ahead of the usual curve, just by actually going to Ukraine.  Most guys that enter this process just dream to go but never do.  This is a HUGE deal in my mind.  It is also a HUGE deal in the minds of the Ukrianian honeys.  The fact that you have been to Ukraine will certainly make you a very credible choice for them in the future. (Use it to your advantage)

As for your question about looking again in Uk/Russia, I have to laugh.  Once you go Russian (Ukrainian), how on earth could one ever be satisfied with an AW?   Apples and oranges in my book.
KenC

[neo]

the reason we all keep going back is that russian women are like alfa-romeo's, painfully beautiful, great to drive, but if they last 10 years without breaking down or killing you then its more down to luck than good judgement.

But anyone who has ever owned an alfa will swear they have never owned a better car no matter how much misery they were caused, as is the way with the russian woman, you simply can't go back

I think its a case of dont not do it, but it do it knowing what you are doing so you dont get hurt/broken

[Jooky]

Ken,

Many of the questions I asked you went unanswered, but there is a good reason I asked them.

First of all, whatever sites you used before going on the romance tour led you to typical scammers. It would help others here for you to list those sites.

Secondly, many agencies hire women to webcam all night on Skype with their customers. Some agencies in particular are known for this, which is why I asked what agency you used. You're paying to chat with this girl and what you've said so far is inconsistent. You either continue to pay the agency or are sending money directly to this girl, but you've avoiding saying this. You say this girl left the agency right after your trip to Yalta, but you also say that this girl's father picks her up at the agency after chatting with you all night.

If you really want to understand your situation, hiding the facts doesn't help.

These days agencies that run romance tours are probably the most dangerous route to finding a Russian bride. There are so many more options available for ladies to meet men than 10 years ago, and agencies have been getting increasingly bad press. A romance tour is viable option for only the most destitute and desperate or those with dishonest intentions.

These type of agencies are know for recruiting women, including prostitutes to attend their socials. They pay women to run webcam chats and they coach their women on how to act and what to say to keep their male clients happy.

Agencies are good at selling a fantasy and illusion. Like it or not, that's the playing field you're working with right now. These days there are much better options.

[mies]

Kate Moss is seen as sexy

Jooky, what are you trying to do (as well as many other men trying to do) is to rationalize why young women should like older men. It's not enough for you to know that you can "buy" a wife with your money or status, you want to believe that you will be genuinely chosen over a 25yo hot stud. And they truth is - women should not, and very often - they don't like older man. Whom did Lolita marry and got pregnant from?

It gives impression as if you believe that when you will repeat the statement and reasoning sufficient amount of time - it will become a law. And in nature - things don't work this way. Only in society/culture sometimes.

[Jooky]

Meis, nope, I'm just giving my observations. I don't think women should like older men at all, but what I've seen throughout my life is that many, but not all, women do. Just look at that list I pulled from match.com. The only evidence you've provided as a counter-argument contradicts what you say.

On a personal level, I've never sought to 'buy' a wife, I couldn't care less if I marry a woman from the US, Russia or Timbuktoo, the biggest age difference I've had in dating was 15 years with an American girl and I'd rather marry a woman close to my age. Trying to categorize me or paint me as old goat chasing schoolgirls in Russia doesn't work.

Large age differences are of no real concern to me. I think they can lead to problems, but that's up to each individual couple to decide for themselves.

As for women choosing me over a 25 year old hot stud, sure it happens. For one reason, most of the women I date absolutely don't want a younger man. For another, women I date are not so shallow and neither am I. Of course physical attraction is important to me, and it's also important for me that the girls I date find me attractive physically, but there are other qualities that I seek over looks and definitely over age. Perhaps you'd choose a dumb 25 year old because he was young and hot over an older man with many good qualities, but the woman I date don't. That's why they choose me and I choose them. I thank God for that!

[Boethius]

I think how bad i felt in hospital on my own while my wife was out shagging a spanish ferrari salesmen.

At least it wasn't a Fiat salesman.


KenC - Based on your description, it wasn't the age gap that broke up your marriage, but rather, a character flaw in Lena.  I met many Lenas when I lived in Ukraine, mostly married to men of their own age.  One of the men who married such a woman (she wanted a propiska) was madly in love with his wife, and he never recovered.

I also know many couples here who broke up when the going got rough - a change in fortune, or one of them gets sick.  I think it is part of the human condition.