Trouble in Paradise?

[JamesDH]

This woman and I have been in contact since May then I went to visit in August.
Spent one week with her, went to Portugal for a week then came back and spent 2 more weeks with her.

Now I'm back at work in Africa.

The trouble started when I returned from Portugal.
First I learn that she's found a male classmate of hers that lives in Australia and has been chatting on Skype.
I question her about it. What type of relationship are you wanting with him? etc..

She claims he's a friend and that's all.  I voice my concerns - He's in a foreign country (she want's to move out of Ukraine). He speaks her language. He's her age (we're 8 years apart). She has known him before.. etc. She shows me the Skype conversation and promises that he's just a friend. OK I'll buy that.
Then other things came into the conversation. Why didn't I communicate more with her when I was in Portugal? I did not have internet access in the little town I was in (700 population) but I was able to use a wireless from a shop to email daily.. just no Skype.
Progressed to the point where she said something like "don't cry.. you'll find another".
Things calmed down after a little bit more conversation and me claiming I didn't want to find another.

Days went by and my feeling was that things had cooled. it was obvious in the way she reacted to me and treated me. As for me. I felt the same and even more enamored with her.
The Sunday before I leave on Tuesday we went to the beach with her sister.. I could have been a thousand miles away. Her back was to me the whole time and she talked constantly with her sister. Before when we went to the beach we would go to the water together to cool off. Now she went with her sister and didn't even tell me she was leaving. When she returned she dribbled cold water on me and laughed. The next time her sister went to cool off she motioned for her to stay with me so I think she felt bad that I was being ignored. (The sister stepped in several times and pointed out what was the right thing to do for her)
Monday night we went out with the BIL and sister. She was more attentive but after a few whiskeys she started talking... First she said she wanted to be an American wife then she said she didn't want to be an American wife.
When we got back to her place she was pretty well lit.
As we were getting in bed I was very close to her face and she whispered to me "I don't want American, I want Russian" I asked her (I knew better than to talk to a drunk but did it anyway) what American didn't she want.. American language? American man? American sex? She never replied.
The next day I asked her about it and she denied saying it. Ok.. drunken talk.

I left on Tuesday and returned to work here in Africa feeling like things were headed down hill.
Now...
Yesterday we start Skype and almost immediately she let's me know that she informed her boss that she will be leaving the company (worked there 11 years) and he needs to find a replacement. We had talked about her moving to another company so I didn't think much of it.
As the night progressed I found out that she told the boss she was getting married and would be moving to the USA and that she was not planning on getting another job. She was planning on us getting married and moving to USA.
Well I'm not opposed to that but I felt we should have talked about it, planned it and agreed on it.
She has no clue what is involved in getting into the USA. I told her it might take a year to get the visa approved etc.. She said no problem, she will wait.

I told her that we were not going to get married after being together for only 3 weeks and that I required more time to assess the situation. She didn't like that and felt I should know by now and how much more about her do I need to know? How long will it take until I'm ready?
I said that when we get to the "intimate stage" and she surrenders herself to me as I surrender myself to her I'll be ready to marry.
She said I was already in that stage but she never said anything about herself even under repeated questioning. (would she ever admit she is at that stage? Would she admit that she has surrendered the power to me?)

I then told her I wasn't going to live in the USA much longer and she said "does not matter what country as long as I am with you".

I told her I needed more time to make sure we are compatible and asked how she could know I was the one after only 3 weeks together. She said she has chosen me and I am it. She said she will be with me the rest of my life and just to relax and let her take care of everything. I asked how she came to choose me.. she said "I feel you". (what does that mean?)

Then I asked her how could she move to another country with me if it meant she would have to depend on me as she had made it clear she didn't want to depend on anyone ever again. She said she would manage and not to worry about that.

It came down to her saying "take a risk. No risk.. no champagne".

Paranoia has taken over my senses and I don't feel I can make a clear judgment.

Does it sound like I'm being played?
Am I being too paranoid? (reading this forum has not helped!!)

Not asking for a judgment.. just feedback and some outside opinions from the people that know.

[Ade]

One observation is that you really shouldn't have assumed she was viewing this old friend of hers in any light other than platonic. That kind of thing hints at a jealous/controlling nature which most women really can do without.

Yes, she was a little paranoid too I guess after you got back from your Portugal trip but then I'm sure she's heard of sex tourists and the WMVM types too so in some ways it's understandable that she was asking probing questions.

One more thing; my main concern would be her inability to understand you wanting to spend more time getting to know each other and her apparent desire to jump in the deep end immediately. If she can't see that it's in both your best interests to take time to make sure you're doing the right thing for the long term then I'd be a little suspect of her motives or at least her intelligence. After all, you seem to have the free time and money to pop in and see her very often so you both have the luxury of being able to relax and enjoy the process and there's no need to rush this.

I hope it works out for you.

[Rina_G]

Dear James!
I've read your post and would like to talk about.
what I liked and what I disliked.
Now about you. you aren't paranoya. It's normakl situation - you had new woman around? you have warm and hot feeling and it are very high emotions. Now you begin back proccess - it's normal. it's natural your jelaous - you leave her and worry about her life without you.
your decision to know her mow - is really wise and I think you have to make this.
case on the beach I can explane. It's very hard to spend much time and don't speak as ussual. She wanted to speak with her sister after silence and she have no diference with whom. no each person cam be silence long time. so russian people find each other in another coutry - for connection, for talking.
and now - what I dislike/ she hurry up. and she hurry up you. yes it's proccess and it can be several monthes. what she will do all this time? wait your money? It isn't smart turn.
and I don't like her words about russian and american wife. Don't beleive - she don't remember. She remember everything. And first what you have to learn - what she think and why she think.
In ane case - please calm down and don't hurry up.
any relationship starts tide, and then will ebb, and then everything will stabilize.
Rina

[SMS60]

There are a bazillion women in the world. I have trouble understanding why you are pursuing the one which causes you enough grief to post on a forum about your situation.

James find a women who is interested in you for you. When you find her you will have very few questions. 

[Gator]

James,

These are my extrapolations based on the little that I know.  It has nothing to do with the fact that she is a RW (or UW).

Both of you fell in love at first sight (or was it after 30 minutes?). IMO this reveals that both of you are strongly intuitive and not analytical.  Intuitive people can be reactive with mood swings, especially a woman.  With the glorious “highs” come some “lows.”   

Now add thoughts about marriage into that delightful and mysterious mind of hers.  She deliberates about how you and marriage will change her life.  She sees the tradeoffs and is trying to deal with them.

So you caught her at a low.  She withdrew from you but not far.  She was still playful and sexy and loving, just not all the time, especially with her sister there.  In your first trip was her sister with you at the beach?  Even if she were, the second and third trips to the same place could never be as good as the first.  Still good, but not as good.

She is a smart girl.  She intuitively realized that something was amiss in Portugal.  And you were in Portugal with an AW, right!  You better get used to this woman sensing when you are up to no good.

She handled Portugal better than you handled her RM friend in Oz.  I agree with SJ, rather than questioning her in a jealous manner, you should have given her the benefit of the doubt.   You could have asked her about her RM friend, yet done in a positive light, i. e., you want to know about all of her friends since her friends are now your friends.  To accept a woman’s friends, no matter who they are, is important in a relationship.

So everything is fine in my book.  Well, not everything.  It is odd that she is quitting her job to marry you.  Have the two of you discussed marriage in the past?  Who first introduced it?  What was said and decided (clearly decided with words) in any previous conversations?  Is it possible that you may have given her the impression that you were ready for marriage?  You must be careful about what you say to a woman driven by her right cerebral hemisphere.

[Misha]

First I learn that she's found a male classmate of hers that lives in Australia and has been chatting on Skype.

How did you learn of this? Let me guess, she innocently dropped it into the conversation?  :evil:

As for me. I felt the same and even more enamored with her.

Well, women (and men) can use a bit of jealousy precisely to stoke the flame  I would wager that she mentioned the friend in Australia precisely to provoke a bit of jealousy. Russians have a saying: "Ревнует, значит любит." Simply means, he (she) is jealous [therefore] he (she) loves. As such, some RW will effectively provoke a bit of jealousy as a test to see if a guy is into them   

[JamesDH]

Great stuff!

I agree.. I found it hard to take that she wanted to quit her job without even talking to me about it.
I mean we talked about her changing jobs plenty but it was always because she hated working there and wanted to move to another job. Never was it mentioned that she would be quitting to move to USA. She actually said she was putting her CV out and actively looking.
What she did say was that her boss (owner of the company) was sweet on her and had asked her out several times. She refused and I'm sure there was some sexual tension involved somewhere and maybe some jealousy after he found out that I was there and noticed that she took the first vacation she's had in the 11 years she's worked there.

In her defense on the beach incident. Her sister had just threatened the BIL with divorce if he didn't stop drinking (our vodka episode didn't help any) so I know there was a lot of sister to sister talk going on.

Gator.. she did not handle Portugal well at all. It seems as if she did because i did not relate the whole story (memory isn't that good). There was several hours of conversation on trust directly as a result of the Portugal trip before the RM was brought into the picture. (she showed his profile to me.. for what reason I'm not sure. maybe to incite jealousy in me?).
Yes I believe she sensed something was amiss but truth is I was completely platonic with the AW. The only thing I had to feel guilty about was the fact that I didn't come out and tell her that there was a woman with me.

I think I'm just over reacting to the request to marry her and move her to the US with out spending more time with her.
It was a several hour long ordeal where she tried to convince me to do it.
She would answer my questions with questions and dodge simple questions by trying to put me on the defensive. "you don't think I'm worthy of being your wife?".

I finally told her point blank that I am not responsible for her leaving the job because we did not discuss it and that I felt she was a wonderful woman but I needed to get to know her better before committing to marriage. I did commit to her in that I promised to be in an exclusive relationship.

side note:
She rattled off a bunch of stuff about me and I admit she's got me pegged pretty well.

Rina - I agree.. what will she do for the months while the visa is being processed? She said it could take 6 months or more to find someone and train them for her position (she's the chief accountant at the gas company and second only to the owner).
I liked your analogy to a tide.. it does ebb and flow and I just need to relax about it.
she never stopped taking care of me, touching me, kissing me or telling me she loved me.

I'll calm her down about quitting the job and go back on Sept 23rd and we'll work it out.

[ambach123]

I have said that since my very first post here, that there are a significant number of RW who want to leave FSU, come here and expect you to support them in style. While she quits her job, she will demand a " stipend" from you. ( In all fairness, not all are like that, but a vast majority).

This is just the beginning, the handwriting is on the wall. Unless you have mucho dinero that you want to support her with, you will cut a sorry figure.

One more thing, when a RW makes up her mind about anything, she does not change it, it is like a brick wall.  She will do whatever she has decided.

[BC]

AM play poker, RW chess.  Poker requires some skill and a lot of luck. Chess is all skill.

Am with Gator.. she sure sounds like a small cookie that can dish it out as well.

I doubt she quit but instead is testing the waters.

Ambach has his 'tude.. but is quite correct if she does ask for a stipend.

[Rina_G]

AM play poker, RW chess.  Poker requires some skill and a lot of luck. Chess is all skill.

BC
I adore you
I'll writing your mind in my book!

[JamesDH]

Gator - Your comment "questioning her in a jealous manner" got me thinking.
I did react rather badly. I lost my head.. stormed out of the room and pouted for a bit. She came to see what was up and we sort of made up.
I need to learn to control that and act in a much more mature manner.

Do RW ever apologize? I never heard her say "I'm sorry".

She is still a wonderful woman in my eyes.

[Gator]

James,

You asked a couple of questions about RW mentality. 

I will answer them.  First, you must always remember that they have a lot of pride.  RW are short on cash but long on pride.

Do RW ever apologize? I never heard her say "I'm sorry".

Sure they apologize!  If they are wrong.  However, they are never wrong.  So don't hold your breath for a "sorry."

My wife is the exception.  She wants to know when she is wrong so that she can improve.     Thus, she likes for me to tell her when she is wrong.  :hairraising:

She would answer my questions with questions and dodge simple questions by trying to put me on the defensive. "you don't think I'm worthy of being your wife?".

Yep, she's Russian.  Almost everyone I met did this as if it were an involuntary, instantaneous reaction.

[GoodOlBoy]

RW are short on cash but long on pride.

Yeah....RW are also long on memory. 

They don't forget jack sh!t.  :evil:


GOB

[docetae]

I know the answer can be difficult, but for me, I understand she wants first to leave Ukraine. If after only little time she is not interested by you 100% of the time, you can imagine what it will be in 3 years. Same for wedding, this is unilateral decision. It seems she is seeing you as weak , did not ask you question and play with you as she wants.

Move to someone who will really love you ...

[BC]

They don't forget jack sh!t.  :evil:

Especially 'promises'..

RW definition of 'promise' - anything implied, however slight or remote.

[GQBlues]

I know the answer can be difficult, but for me, I understand she wants first to leave Ukraine. If after only little time she is not interested by you 100% of the time, you can imagine what it will be in 3 years. Same for wedding, this is unilateral decision. It seems she is seeing you as weak , did not ask you question and play with you as she wants.

Move to someone who will really love you ...

Plus one for me...

One should never chalk up strange behavior to cultural differences. Playing mind games with one another at such an early stage of any relationship seem very silly and pointless to me. Relationships at this stage should not have this much anxiety, stress, and doubts. This woman making life's decision for the two of you on her own without discussion tells me she knows she's got you wrapped around her fingers. Damned is your opinion now as they will always be....

Sorry.

[JR]

Hey James.

Yep, RW want to see a little jealousy in their men.

WTF marriage? Stomp your foot down on that one and make it CLEAR that it only happens when you BOTH are ready.

It does indeed sound like she wants a ride out of Ukraine, and on your back to boot. You need to make it clear about what your expectations for a wife are, ie: kids (if and when), work (does she or doesn't she) etc. etc. There's a whole list of things you need to iron out before tieing the knot. The next time she won't answer a question just stay on point until she does. It is not unreasonable for her to address some of your concerns.
But no more storming off. If you need to cool off tell her you're going for a walk to sort some things out and you want to discuss it when you get back/

I agree she's got you wrapped around her finger. You're an emotional guy. Saw that with the last gal too. She's running the show, you need to get the reins back. Personally I think her character isn't in agreement with yours, but you probably won't listen to that.

[Boethius]

I would not come to the conclusion that letting you know of the male classmate was an attempt to make you jealous, or otherwise to manipulate you.  Male/female platonic friendships are extremely common in Ukraine.  In fact, more common than not.  It is not unusual for a woman to cry to a male friend about some guy she is dating who is treating her badly, or to tell him how happy she is in a relationship.   Your mistake in the debacle was in expressing jealousy.  It demonstrated to this lady that you have very strong feelings for her.  That may be why she is jumping the gun.  She is 43(?).  In Ukraine, nobody needs her (I apologize for the bluntness, but this is what a Ukrainian man would say), other than as a casual bed partner.  This may be a factor in her approach.  

Ignoring you when she was angry may be a bad sign, if this is her method of conflict resolution.  If it is, do you want a hot and cold marriage?  OTOH, ignoring you may have been a default solely because she may not be able to express her feelings to you due to her limited English.

I think you should ignore everyone's advice on how to deal with this woman, and rely on the advice of other posters only regarding cultural cues.  You are not a teen aged boy.  If you listen to your intuition, and pay attention to who this woman is, rather than to the beautiful package it comes in, you will find your answer.

James,

You asked a couple of questions about RW mentality.  

I will answer them.  First, you must always remember that they have a lot of pride.  RW are short on cash but long on pride.

Sure they apologize!  If they are wrong.  However, they are never wrong.  So don't hold your breath for a "sorry."

This is not a trait isolated to Russian women.  It is a very Soviet trait.  For four generations, Soviets were told that remorse was a sign of weakness.  If you are right, you should not apologize.  Ever.  

[JamesDH]

Another thing.

I felt like my charm and compliments were completely wasted except when I complimented her little sister, who accepted it gracefully and blushed.

Is that normal for FSUW?

Edit - I don't mean laying it on thick.. I mean just normal compliments like "dinner was great", "You look great tonight, as we leave for dinner" etc..
She mentioned something about "that's what men say when they want to master a woman".

[BC]

Another thing.

I felt like my charm and compliments were completely wasted except when I complimented her little sister, who accepted it gracefully and blushed.

Is that normal for FSUW?

In my experience Yes.  Their XRay vision allows them to see right through BS.

[Boethius]

Another thing.

I felt like my charm and compliments were completely wasted except when I complimented her little sister, who accepted it gracefully and blushed.

Is that normal for FSUW?

Edit - I don't mean laying it on thick.. I mean just normal compliments like "dinner was great", "You look great tonight, as we leave for dinner" etc..
She mentioned something about "that's what men say when they want to master a woman".

It is normal in Ukraine to always thank whoever prepared the dinner and compliment them on it, even if it is a cup of milk and a piece of homemade bread.  It is also normal to compliment someone on how good they look.  It is like saying "Hello" here.  So it wouldn't be considered anything special to say this.  I would hazard a guess you misunderstood what she was saying to you, because in Ukraine, it is not only men who pay these compliments.

[Rina_G]

Do you know? In this story I dislike some things - first her work.
I know what is it good work in FSU, I know what is oil sector.
pepole hold to this work place very much  and now it's hard times in FSU.
so it seems to me there are one from two - or this isn't oil sector or this isn't leave of work.
it's the first thing.

[Boethius]

The oil company is not necessarily in the oil and gas sector.  It could be a municipal gas company.

[Rina_G]

without diferences - money is very good and nobody normal will loose this for dream perspective.

[JamesDH]

Rina - I agree with you. She has worked there (company formerly known as OdessaGas) for 11 years, 3 years as director of accounting department. Her mother held the position before her so it's almost "in the family". Good job? She says it's good but her boss (owner) is always on her.
Example: When I was there she came home crying saying her boss accused her of making a 1,000,000 mistake as well as being involved in some sort of conspiracy to help the Russians to overtake the company (they are trying hard to buy the company now). They brought in an outside auditor and found everything perfect. She said this is the second time in the past year that it's happened to her. She's fed up with it and wants to go somewhere else.
She makes $1200 a month which she says is OK for her country.

Last night we had a long talk (we only 2 hours time difference).
She agreed that she was trying to make things move too fast.
Her reasoning is that she has been having a dream and the dream is that she is in a room with two kids. One from her previous marriage and one from a marriage to a foreign man and she is living in a foreign country. The second child has a western name - Edward. She has had this dream for years and related it to me months before I came to visit.
She says she feels I am the man in the dream and naturally everything should fall into place.


Frankly I can't imagine finding a woman that fits so well with me. We laugh and joke like we've known each other for years. I am so comfortable around her. She reads my mind and I (kinda) read hers. We have very similar interests and values (at least I thought we did before I got this paranoia attack).
Her words are "I'm glad I found someone as crazy as I am" and I feel the same.

I'm still headed back on Sept. 24th.