WHAT IS MEANT BY "FRIENDSHIP" IN USA?

[Blues Fairy]

It's BORING ! Is it because they don't have much to say or it isn't customary to talk, exchange opinions on a broad range of themes? Is the presence of a  Russian lady in the way ? Or, may be, they are jealous of attention? or may be all of the above? or, may be,  i am  at a loss. Please, advise. Thanks.

I figure, some indeed might not have much to say, but others may keep shallow conversation for a reason; e.g. not to overwhelm the audience (you, in this instance) with a litany of opinionated statements and prying questions.  Respect for people's privacy does limit conversation a great deal, as does genuine desire not to offend anyone.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to hear how YOU usually behave in conversations with other people.  You mention they keep their opinions to themselves because they might be "jealous of attention"?  Attention to you?  If that were the case I'd expect them to be more forward with their opinions, no?  Are you actually interested in their opinions "on a broad range of subjects", or just crave the attention to YOUR opinions and suffer from the lack of it? 

[Sculpto]

humility and open-mindedness

quite well said GQ.  I would go further to say that in the view of some Americans, well educated Europeans sometimes if not often come off as arrogant. 

On one of my trips in Mexico a situation occurred that could illuminate.  At a campground there was about an even mix of Americans and Europeans and everyone had divided.. Americans on one side of the camp and all the Euros on the other.. why?

One of the Americans was an extremely beautiful young lady from Salt Lake City.  She was a former Mormon who had recently left her faith and was going a little wild.  She was a bit loud and a bit uncultured in some ways, but very genuine and sweet and a kind of "life of the party" type.  The Euros decided she was obnoxious and at the campfire someone told her to "shut up".  All hell broke loose after that. 

The interesting thing was, most of the Americans agreed.. she was loud.. she was trying to be the center of attention.. but at the same time.. we all understood her vernacular and her unique American experience of being a reformed Mormon and why she was going wild.  We were all offended by the narrow mindedness of the Euro crowd and rallied around her.

I don't know if that is relevant in any way.. but.. this discussion reminded me of the event.

[Misha]

For a solid friendship to form, an ounce of humility and open-mindedness are basic element that compliments and reinforces most initial encounters.

I agree. Reminds me of some of my wife's acquaintances. One is from Bulgaria and keeps denigrating Canada by saying there is not "culture" here. Yet, she herself is highly uncultured: I am sure she has not read a book in years, and has likely not been to a play, museum, gallery or other "cultural" event in decades, yet will opine about the lack of culture here 

Another woman from Ukraine is always overgeneralizing. As a case in point, we were sitting around and she starts going on and on as to how in Ukraine, Russian speakers have a much richer vocabulary and will speak in a much more educated manner. Had to point out that it depends on whom exactly you were speaking to in Canada and Ukraine. Your average worker in Ukraine will speak with a vocabulary largely derived from a handful of swear words. He will hardly be Pushkin reincarnated.

And, I could go on with example after example. I am sure these women will invariably complain that they can't make any friends in Canada, but I would be the first to recommend that they read the old classic How to Make Friends and Influence People as they certainly break all the cardinal rules on how to make good friends, rules applicable to both here and there.

[GQBlues]

Misha-

I have a feeling in most progressive nations (nations whose citizenry comprise of a multitude of immigrants from different countries) what you describe happens more times than not. I'm almost inclined to believe this is partly the reason why there's a huge number of immigrants who stay within pockets of their respective communities and prevent them from fully integrating to the society at large.

As an immigrant to this country myself, I know a huge number of my countrymen are stricken by this and are always reluctant to participate in any type activity outside their circle of friends within the confines of our culture.

In some ways I can empathize as it isn't always easy for immigrants to integrate with their new society and its population having only their previous society's norm and influences to use in their new association. Many just have a hard time associating in this manner.

Or to put it in a more confined example, it would be like growing up in Compton and getting invited and attending a party in Beverly Hills ( or vice versa) then try to mingle with the guests. On the onset, there's that prevailing feeling you simply don't belong. But for those who opens up, they mostly find they actually can have a good time and find they aren't so different after all.

[I/O]

If one is truly cultured, he/she can speak to someone about any subject, including the NHL/NBA/NFL (or, at least one of the them), and won't comment on that individual's poor grammar.

or just crave the attention to YOUR opinions and suffer from the lack of it?

IMO (pun intended) this is pretty universal and forum boards are a very good example. If one doesn't seek attention to ones opinion why voice (or pen or keyboard) it? We've seen two or three new posters turn up here recently all spruking their education and sophistication. Thus far I've not been particularly impressed with the supporting evidence but time will show.

[Blues Fairy]

IMO (pun intended) this is pretty universal and forum boards are a very good example. If one doesn't seek attention to ones opinion why voice (or pen or keyboard) it?

The difference is that on a forum board, you can afford to ignore other people's posts without the risk of losing their good will, whereas in real life you have to, at least, nod and smile and make an interested face.

[BC]

That's the closest to the truth.  Most people really just don't care.  'How's it going?' is a greeting, a rhetorical question; it's not anything that we really want to know.  If the answer is anything other than another greeting or 'good', then the first person will likely think of an excuse to cut short the conversation.

On the flip side, if the 'how's it going' question is actually sincere, many people don't want to answer it in detail (I'm guilty of this 99% of the time), so a reply such as 'good, how are you?' is given.

Usually if someone bumps into you, draws a wide toothy smile, says "Hey buddy! how ya doin?  and vigorously shakes your hand It means they met you before but don't remember your name...  

[Misha]

On the onset, there's that prevailing feeling you simply don't belong. But for those who opens up, they mostly find they actually can have a good time and find they aren't so different after all.

Most people are pretty simple and straightforward: in almost all cases, they are always overjoyed to have someone willing to sincerely and intently listen the them. As others have noted, the art of a good conversation is as much knowing how and when to listen as it is talking.  

[docetae]

What kind of circles do you travel in?  Here, there are so many foreigners, that they are not "exotic".

I find that many people are well informed and culturally astute.  But, it depends on the circles you are familiar with.  Most the people I know are well educated and well read.  Among clients, not as much, but it varies.  But then, they know a lot of things I don't, so I learn new things.  

If one is truly cultured, he/she can speak to someone about any subject, including the NHL/NBA/NFL (or, at least one of the them), and won't comment on that individual's poor grammar.

IT sector in banking industry . About my grammar,  English is my fourth language and I work in french.

As someone wrote in this thread, for me the word friend refers only to close friends, not someone I know only from work or a few suppers.
Regarding general culture in US or Canada, ask any foreigner or american people who studied in Europe and he will tell you the same. I define general culture as the sum of knowledge in various fields allowing someone to have an open mind and a bit of reflexion on various topics.

The first issue is that we do not define word friend with the same meaning. This is a cultural difference.

[I/O]

Regarding general culture in US or Canada, ask any foreigner or american people who studied in Europe and he will tell you the same. I define general culture as the sum of knowledge in various fields allowing someone to have an open mind and a bit of reflexion on various topics.

So by your definition, North Americans (with their much lower culture) are more closed minded than Europeans. Yet, you fail to address the contradiction of your own words. The pomposity and arrogance is astounding.

[Jooky]

The first issue is that we do not define word friend with the same meaning. This is a cultural difference.

No, it's a vocabulary difference. We could use the more accurate word 'acquaintance', but most people choose not to. It's easier to just say 'friend'.

Americans do distinguish between acquaintances, casual 'friends', close friends and friends you can trust with your life, just like anywhere else. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

[BC]

So by your definition, North Americans (with their much lower culture) are more closed minded than Europeans. Yet, you fail to address the contradiction of your own words. The pomposity and arrogance is astounding.

I/O, that is a wee bit out of context....

docetae is not far off the mark with his comments IMHO

Those very few I classify as friends are greeted with a hug and many times kisses (even males).  Druck was not a word used lightly in FSU.. in fact I was only addressed as such by one person I know there, someone I spent a good bit of time with, shared a RU sauna and real heart to heart discussions over everything worldly , not to mention plenty of Standart. We ended up quite close in thought.. the kind of guy that could show up on your doorstep in the middle of the night, at the most inconvenient time and you wouldn't hesitate to open up.

In the US I did note that there seems to be a few questions that almost always come up when meeting someone... where do you live, what do you do, what do you drive and who do you know.. 

[I/O]

I/O, that is a wee bit out of context....

docetae is not far off the mark with his comments IMHO

Sorry BC but IMO it is right in context and yes docetae is correct in so far as many from Europe or those who have studied there will say similar. Saying doesn't always make it correct.

The cultures are different not more nor less and I would never be prepared to suggest that a culture in some part of Europe is "lower" than another, that's disgusting. It is different and there to be enjoyed if you have a truly open mind. I've heard Americans and my own criticised for being interested in sport (even in this thread) before some of the arts for example. Well hello, sport IS a huge part of the culture, maybe even dominant at times in America and perhaps even to a greater extent in my own country. Prey tell what is "lower" about that. It is different and if it doesn't appeal to ones taste then .........................

I have also heard comments along the lines of a culture so focussed on sport is unsophisticated and frankly I agree wholeheartedly, hello...............it's the way locals want it, get over it. It is the understanding of these differences which will help to lower barriers to lasting friendships IMO.

[Blues Fairy]

I define general culture as the sum of knowledge in various fields allowing someone to have an open mind and a bit of reflexion on various topics.

"To have an open mind" - as in "be prepared to change one's opinion when new facts come into light", or as in "believe everything, even the most baseless theories, just for the sake of appearing liberal and open-minded"?

I find the second definition more and more prevalent among those folks who tend to criticize American culture, capitalism, globalization, Global Warming etc.  As a rule such people will be into various kinds of alternative treatments, organic lifestyle, multiculturalism, gender studies and such; and they will readily brand anyone who opposes them "narrow-minded".  Well, I agree that I am sometimes narrow-minded; logical thinking is, after all, a fairly restrictive process.   

[docetae]

We can talk about sport... Definition of friendship can be resumed in these photos....Rugby is the european way, Football the american way...

[GQBlues]

Sports: Was not the spirit of the Olympiakoi Agones the pinnacle of festivals of culture and religion participated only by the priviledged few?  

Or was it really only participated, celebrated and spectacled upon by the unsophisticated?

[ECOCKS]

Another POV…

Re: Americans and “friendship”

First, think of a set of concentric rings (aka a target with a bulls-eye or the layers of an onion if you prefer). I have several layers of relationships with the world and society(-ies) around me.

The bulls-eye is me, then the layers of family, best friends, close friends, “simply” friends, acquaintances, strangers, known enemies and then those who are completely unknown. People move between those circles based upon shared expereinces, trust, loyalty and empathy shared over time and events.

I found that many FSU “friends” don’t even know each others’ last names, college degrees, places of birth and such that I would regard as normal information to be aware of when someone moves from acquaintance to even a simple friend. That lack of knowledge strikes me as superficial and over-stating the relationship.

For the expat communities that actually sort of makes the incredibly poor service levels seem a bit more deliberate and insulting.

Re: Low culture

Amusing. I have met more than a few folks who love to spout off their knowledge of art, theater, opera, sports, literature, philosophy, etc. to the point of nausea. For some reason, more of them were encountered in Europe and were astonishing in their arrogant posturing which consisted of a very basic rambling about several subjects. Listening and a few questions soon showed that they knew practically nothing about a world view of the subject and were the culling of some reading of one or two books by an author or professor’s lecture during their university years.

As mentioned, American culture is different, just as Ukrainian, British, French, Italian, whatever culture is different from Japanese, Thai, Nigerian, Venezuelan and so on.  There is far more to intelligence or even valued friendships than the ability to bandy about whose opera you preferred in the last season.

[docetae]

quick note about culture ...there is one french sentence..."la culture c'est comme la confiture, moins on en a, plus on l'etale.."
Culture is like jam, less you have, more you spread it ... this is what we usually say to that kind of people.

When I talk about lack of culture, this is not talking about last opera, etc. This is to have a knowledge about other cultures and domains and the ability to build my reflexion, based on this knowledge. We have not the same definition again ...

[ECOCKS]

When I talk about lack of culture, this is not talking about last opera, etc. This is to have a knowledge about other cultures and domains and the ability to build my reflexion, based on this knowledge. We have not the same definition again ...

That is what I would generally define as sophistication. I respected a lot of people who would continually ask questions which didn't presuppose the answer.

Hollywood particularly seems to affect the views people hold of other countries cultures, particularly Americans.

Generalizing from non-random events is a big contributor as well. Countless times there were the leading questions coming from some news article. If you really want to learn the power of the media, spend some time reading another culture's views of your country.  

[Boethius]

IT sector in banking industry . About my grammar,  English is my fourth language and I work in french.

As someone wrote in this thread, for me the word friend refers only to close friends, not someone I know only from work or a few suppers.
Regarding general culture in US or Canada, ask any foreigner or american people who studied in Europe and he will tell you the same. I define general culture as the sum of knowledge in various fields allowing someone to have an open mind and a bit of reflexion on various topics.

The first issue is that we do not define word friend with the same meaning. This is a cultural difference.

I wasn't commenting on your grammar, docetae.  Rather, I was commenting generally, based on other posts.  For clarity, I should have set that apart as a separate sentence.  I apologize for that lack of clarity, and if I inadvertently offended you.  It was not my intent.

[Boethius]

"To have an open mind" - as in "be prepared to change one's opinion when new facts come into light", or as in "believe everything, even the most baseless theories, just for the sake of appearing liberal and open-minded"?

I find the second definition more and more prevalent among those folks who tend to criticize American culture, capitalism, globalization, Global Warming etc.  As a rule such people will be into various kinds of alternative treatments, organic lifestyle, multiculturalism, gender studies and such; and they will readily brand anyone who opposes them "narrow-minded".  Well, I agree that I am sometimes narrow-minded; logical thinking is, after all, a fairly restrictive process.    

No offense intended, but why do you assume you are a logical thinker?  Your posts on "death panels" were emotional rather than rational, and were not even factually correct.    

In my opinion, being open minded means being willing to see another person's perspective.  It doesn't mean your perspective will be revised, but rather, that you respect the views of those whose beliefs differ from your own.  

[Ludmila]

Thanks for all your thoughts, ideas, opinions, suppositions and categoric statements. Thanks for the negative feedback too. At times, it is preferable to hear negative thoughts than meaningless smalltalk about nothing for hours. Thanks to everybody.

Although I received more replies than I expected, for me to consider, it   was yet  another proof that  infrequently  Russians and Westerners  "come  from different planets". It is no one's fault, no one's better than the other. We ARE simply different in many ways.

The essense of my original question was, unfortunately, misunderstood and distorted. The reason: Russians and Westerners NEED AND SEEK  different things in the act of communication. You talked about Western manner of communication, I was trying to make  a totally different point.

 I have no doubt , it is clear to anyone that there are conversational cliches in any language, which are almost a communication code.  Noone hardly ever mean anything serious when they pronounce them. They are called conversation openers . Thanks for taking effort to speak about them. BUT IT WASN'T NEARLY MY POINT! It was some of you who took it that way.

I was going to discuss the difference in Russians vs Westerners in readiness to be open to the world of other cultures, readiness to learn about other cultures, way of thinking, way of looking at life, readiness to share the impressions  of the journey called LIFE.  (This is what your wives mean when they complain they cannot find American girlfriends to share thier feel of LIFE ).

Here I need to note, not without pride, that my husband being my soulmate and , hopefully, LOVE FOREVER, has made strides as a westerner in learning the Russian World, so to speak . His baggage today :essential Tolstoy, essential Dostoyevsky, detailed Russian history, scrutiniy of Russian/ European philosophic   works  on topical burning issues. So now, a whole different world has opened itself before him, and he enjoys every minute of our sharing.


For those who find it boring, please, don't bother to read below.

Guys, I just thought it would be interesting for you to glance and  read  a couple of paragraphs from philosophic observations and thoughts on Russia vs Western World of a Russian prominent philosopher of the 19-th c ( honoris causa---an honorary member --  of Theological Faculty, Cambridge University, England . FYI, other Russian honoris causa were Chaikovsky and Turgenyev) :

"Western spirit is very rationalized, regulated and organized. Western spirit is " bearing the ''press", the "chains" of civilization.
Russian spirit is free, always remains irrational, unorganized and unregulated. Russian spirit does not observe Western formula/ patterns of life.


Russians have a basic NEED to express their spiritual life. Westerners have a strong NEED  in privacy, a need to be closed to others and stay reserved.

Russians are more sociable, more inclined to communicate, passionately, sharing thoughts and feelings, argue, oppose, etc ( here, I am adding my own thoughts that cyber opportunities are enabling a westerner to communicate in a manner  otherwise unlikely to be used by him in a physical encounter, being under the subconscious press of etiquette and  national traditional mentality -- argueing, enflaming, using endearing words, etc-- what can be easily and  clearly seen on this very forum).

I will stop here. I don't want to burden you more. There are tonns of interesting observations, research data, conclusions throwing light to deep root causes of spiritual problems, giving answers to more than a few issues that life has  and will inevitably pose ( in this or that form) before you and your Russian soulmates, as well as millions of Russian emigres in the contemporary history.

[JR]

A RW living in America asks a question about friendship in the USA, and she receives answers from a Dutchman, an Italian, an Ozzie, a French?-Canadian, a Brit and a RW. 

I started chuckling as I scrolled down thinking "All these non-American's responding to a distinctly American question

Here in America you are no longer your child parent. Now you are their "friend." Makes me want to puke! The word is grossly over used. We seem to have forgotten the terms business associate, client, neighbor, acquaintance, boss, parent, child, etc, etc.

[elliott]

The superficial impression was that there were a lot of people and fun going on, but upon closer look.......It is clear, once he is out of business,the number of enthusiasts will be much smaller.

If it hasn't already been mentioned, many acts performed by people, including the act of befriending someone, have the motivation of 'what's in it for me?'  Your example quoted above is proof of that.

The essense of my original question was, unfortunately, misunderstood and distorted...I was going to discuss the difference in Russians vs Westerners in readiness to be open to the world of other cultures, readiness to learn about other cultures, way of thinking, way of looking at life, readiness to share the impressions  of the journey called LIFE.

I don't see how that has anything to do with friendship, necessarily.



The following is 

Well, I agree that I am sometimes narrow-minded; logical thinking is, after all, a fairly restrictive process.

Restrictive?  Nah.  Inductive?  Yeah.  Deductive?  Sure.  But restrictive?  Logic closes doors that need to be closed and opens the ones that need to be open.  I don't see that as restrictive or limiting.

[OlgaH]

His baggage today :essential Tolstoy, essential Dostoyevsky, detailed Russian history, scrutiniy of Russian/ European philosophic   works  on topical burning issues. So now, a whole different world has opened itself before him, and he enjoys every minute of our sharing.

Hi Ludmila,

There is a wonderful website devoted to Nikolai Berdyaev, most likely you already know about the website, if not below is a link.

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Sui-Generis/Berdyaev/essays/index.htm

Yakov Krotov's library:
THE  REVELATION  ABOUT  MAN IN  THE  CREATIVITY OF  DOSTOEVSKY by Nikolai Berdyaev.
http://www.krotov.info/engl/berdyaev/1918_294.html