WHAT IS MEANT BY "FRIENDSHIP" IN USA?

[Ludmila]

People's circle of friends is infrequently their professional circle ( once I  witnessed a guy's birthday, when all the "friends" were his clients or sub-contractors, etc giving him their "sincere" birthday greetings). The superficial impression was that there were a lot of people and fun going on, but upon closer look.......It is clear, once he is out of business,the number of enthusiasts will be much smaller. I would be  more than a little unhappy to call these people my friends...... Friendly clients-- yes, but friends... Or is it part of the American idea of close friends?

In general, I have to say, although Americans are friendly and meaning well, AW  are very reserved, with an air of superiority ( albeit aren't ashamed of e.g. their very poor grammar in their native language). The communication doesn't go deeper than "how are you" " it's a gorgeous day today", etc. I watched people's topics: usually general, meaningless, infrequently shallow,  smalltalk. It's BORING ! Is it because they don't have much to say or it isn't customary to talk, exchange opinions on a broad range of themes? Is the presence of a  Russian lady in the way ? Or, may be, they are jealous of attention? or may be all of the above? or, may be,  i am  at a loss. Please, advise. Thanks.

[Shadow]

Not sure. As the American professional culture requires to ' smile and wave'  to everyone in order to keep customers happy, probably people learn to stay superficial until a real bond is formed.
Like a well trained hostess will be able to smile and help out an irritating customer, and only a few people willl notice that she feels like killing.

[I/O]

The communication doesn't go deeper than "how are you" " it's a gorgeous day today", etc.

So vastly different from what one hears so often on the Russian streets, "Privyet, kak dela? Normalna, Oh dah? Dah. Moma dorma? Nyet. Oh dah? Dah. Papa dorma? Dah. Oh dah?................absolutely stimulating conversation the depth of which is unfathomable to mere mortals. 

Ludmila, you raise a good subject and most often whatever nationality will not notice this in their local dialogue until someone else points it out. Russians very often shine the spotlight on this one in America, Australia etc. Rightly so but they fail to notice it in Russia as do most fail to notice it until it is pointed out in whatever country. I've travelled 27 countries over the last decade and I can't count how many languages, guess what? "Hi how are you" (or similar) is there in every one of them. Useless icebreakers which very often lead to useless conversation. I think your question more one of "people" than locale. Bunaus dios, como estoy? Why ask if you are not interested in the answer and we almost are never interested in the answer. 

[Doll]

In general, I have to say, although Americans are friendly and meaning well, AW  are very reserved, with an air of superiority ( albeit aren't ashamed of e.g. their very poor grammar in their native language). The communication doesn't go deeper than "how are you" " it's a gorgeous day today", etc. I watched people's topics: usually general, meaningless, infrequently shallow,  smalltalk. It's BORING ! Is it because they don't have much to say or it isn't customary to talk, exchange opinions on a broad range of themes?

I have same problem- over years and years can't get any AW friend. I get bored to death every time I approach AW to initiate friendship so I gave up. I think one of the reasons is that Russians are more sincere. And yes- I've seen many signs of superiority like "ok, listen, I'll teach you how to..."
I gave up.

[docetae]

People's circle of friends is infrequently their professional circle ( once I  witnessed a guy's birthday, when all the "friends" were his clients or sub-contractors, etc giving him their "sincere" birthday greetings). The superficial impression was that there were a lot of people and fun going on, but upon closer look.......It is clear, once he is out of business,the number of enthusiasts will be much smaller. I would be  more than a little unhappy to call these people my friends...... Friendly clients-- yes, but friends... Or is it part of the American idea of close friends?

In general, I have to say, although Americans are friendly and meaning well, AW  are very reserved, with an air of superiority ( albeit aren't ashamed of e.g. their very poor grammar in their native language). The communication doesn't go deeper than "how are you" " it's a gorgeous day today", etc. I watched people's topics: usually general, meaningless, infrequently shallow,  smalltalk. It's BORING ! Is it because they don't have much to say or it isn't customary to talk, exchange opinions on a broad range of themes? Is the presence of a  Russian lady in the way ? Or, may be, they are jealous of attention? or may be all of the above? or, may be,  i am  at a loss. Please, advise. Thanks.

Hello,

Let me share my point of view on this: I live since 11 years in canada, knowing people on both side of the border (for the detail, I am french) and I am living the same than you.

1 - North American society is based on one individualistic point of view where structure of friendships are extremely hard to enter
2 - Most people will only want to be polite and will have that kind of talk.
3 - General culture level is extremely low if you compare to Europe. Except the last nhl/nba/nfl result, this is difficult to have a talk.
4 - Most people have absolutely no idea about our background culture: we are exotic
5 - My friends are people who travel a lot (and not in tour) or other emigrants like me
6 - People are polite, smile, have a friendly behavior but are not your friend. This word seems to have not the same meaning on both side of the ocean.
7 - For business relation, for most of them, you are interesting the time you can bring something back to them (money or contacts)
8 - Good luck, on the long term, this is the point the more difficult I have found to adapt myself.

[CallMeSasha]

it seems you are making quite a general stereotype about americans here.

from what i understand of russian schooling is that you attend the same school throughout your schooling. in england you typically attend 3 different schools 5-8yrs, 8-11yrs & 11-16yrs (is it similar in US?). obviously if you have the same friends for 11 yrs you will build closer bonds with these people then if you only know them for a few years before going on to a different middle or high-school.

i find it hard to make new friends, however if i have something in common with them then it is far easier to bond. for example my wife met another girl from moscow in england, they aren't very close as they don't have many things in common although they still meet regularly. her husband & i both support the same EPL football team, we regularly go to games together & even with a big age difference we are like best buddies.

people all over the world are the same, some are friendly to strangers & some are not. some people ignore others, some will make smalltalk to be polite. are you honestly telling us that you are sincere to every person you meet?

[SANDRO43]

Bunaus dios, como estoy? Why ask if you are not interested in the answer

Hard to answer that question anyway, it translates to "Bunaus god, how am I?" .

[SANDRO43]

from what i understand of russian schooling is that you attend the same school throughout your schooling. in england you typically attend 3 different schools 5-8yrs, 8-11yrs & 11-16yrs (is it similar in US?). obviously if you have the same friends for 11 yrs you will build closer bonds with these people then if you only know them for a few years before going on to a different middle or high-school.

IINM, the Russian educational structure is similar, i.e. elementary, junior high/high, uni, so the longest stretch with the same schoolmates is about 5 years as anywhere else.

I think that what contributed most to reducing conversational skills was TV, its viewers being much more passive than radio listeners and newspaper/book readers .

[Gator]

A RW living in America asks a question about friendship in the USA, and she receives answers from a Dutchman, an Italian, an Ozzie, a French?-Canadian, a Brit and a RW. 

I suppose my reaction is the same as how RW react when they read AM accounts of RW mentality.    Nevertheless, some of you display a reasonable understanding of the truth. 

Just keep in mind that we have all types of people in America.  I find us more diverse than other countries, so you can find in America whatever you want.

[groovlstk]

My wife struggled with this a little when she first arrived, I believe the root of it is that the American definition of a "friend" has become overly broad. In my parents' time, people would never refer to their colleagues or clients as friends (unless they had more than a business relationship). Today, in the era of the kinder, gentler corporation (where terms like subordinate, boss, and even secretary are becoming obsolete), people have an annoying tendancy to use that word superficially to encompass everything from the pizza delivery guy to the office receptionist, whom they've never spoken more than 10 words to. Everyone understands it's BS, but I can see how it's confusing for new immigrants.

[SANDRO43]

A RW living in America asks a question about friendship in the USA, and she receives answers from a Dutchman, an Italian, an Ozzie, a French?-Canadian, a Brit and a RW.

Proves the point about low US conversational skills - America 1, Rest of the World 6 . Game and set.

[myrddin]

Proves the point about low US conversational skills - America 1, Rest of the World 6 .

Or it could have something to do with timezones....   

Much of the above rings true with me, but I'll second Gator's point: there are a lot of different types in America.  Probably more than in many countries.

And groov's: I think the term "friend" in America has expanded to include something better described as "acquaintance" (maybe "good acquaintance").  I translate the Russian word as "close friend" in American.

[CallMeSasha]

Or it could have something to do with timezones....   

stop snoozing you lot, it's 9.15am eastern time!

back to the OP, i think a lot of it is also to do with where you are so what i am about to say might come-across as a generalisation.......

e.g. people in cities seem to have less time for other people due to the hectic lifestyle of the "rat race". taking this further my father recently moved to a much quiter coastal location in england, there him and his wife know all the local people and within 3 months of residing there they are very much part of the local community

does this ring true in quieter parts of the US?

edited to add - i doubt they've made any "lifelong friends" yet - but illustrates how much easier it can be to meet people

[I/O]

Hard to answer that question anyway, it translates to "Bunaus god, how am I?" .

Sandro: Feel free to correct any of my posts you feel so inclined, writing and language were never my strength.....................

Funnily enough, I suspect you got the point.

Gator: I saw the irony before I struck a key in this thread but justified it to myself with the exact thought process you outlined, hell we tell everyone how RW think so why not tell 'em how the 'murricans think. Nevertheless, none of us have really addressed the question nor do I think it really can be. I am not an American, much less an American woman but I have spent a good few months in various parts of USA over 5 visits and gleaned at least this much. Similar to here, superficial or casual friendships come and go easily enough but something of depth is much more difficult.

I have an "out there" theory on why this is so in USA , Aus, SA and some others as opposed to deeper friendships forming more easily in Europe etc. I think it is a combination of demography, topography and geography. Sh!t, did I say that? Someone kill that liberal Gennie please before it consumes a perfectly obnoxious arch conservative. To the point, in Europe and Russia one lives physically much closer and human interaction is a close range thing at all times. Put people closer together and they will become even closer (mostly). We here and Americans generally speaking live in a much more spread out, self sufficient style of housing etc and are very protective of "own physical space". I think this translates into personal and emotional space also which provides a natural barrier and as such may still only give us a "why" answer and not a "what" answer.

General culture level is extremely low if you compare to Europe.

Geezus this sort of comment gives me the sh!ts and the *&^%s wonder why half the world hates 'em. Low culture? BS. It's different...........hello different and has a shorter history, nothing more nor less other than it provides almost unequalled freedoms and among those freedoms is the right to p!ss off home to wonderland if you don't like it.

[SANDRO43]

I think real/close friends are from the pool of people you share significant experiences with over a longish period of time, like during your teenage years.

If I met some of my oddball lifelong friends for the first time today, I'd not give them the time of day .

[CallMeSasha]

Geezus this sort of comment gives me the sh!ts and the *&^%s wonder why half the world hates 'em. Low culture? BS. It's different...........hello different and has a shorter history, nothing more nor less other than it provides almost unequalled freedoms and among those freedoms is the right to p!ss off home to wonderland if you don't like it.

without jumping on the bandwagon, the quote you are referring to isn't going to win the poster any friends 

[Misha]

IINM, the Russian educational structure is similar, i.e. elementary, junior high/high, uni, so the longest stretch with the same schoolmates is about 5 years as anywhere else.

Maybe, but keep in mind that in Russia people do not move around much as compared to North America. In Soviet times, you moved even less. If your parents were lucky, they received an apartment before you were born and they would likely live in that apartment until they died. As such, the average Russian grew up in the same apartment, the same neighborhood, playing with the kids from the same courtyard, going to the same schools with them and sometimes even the same university. They would then work in the same city. As such, it gives them a great deal of opportunity to accumulate friends over a lifetime.

The fact of the matter is that it is not that much easier making new friends in Russia IMO. If a RW were to move into a new city where she doesn't know anybody, it wouldn't be any easier for her to instantly make close friends who will open themselves up to her. If she is in her thirties, most women her age will already have many friends, will be busy with their kids and jobs, and won't have time for new friends. Also, you won't be any more likely to have deep, heart-to-heart conversations with random strangers in Russia than anywhere else IMHO.

Friendship takes time. If you are lucky, you have one or a handful of very close friends that you see on a regular basis, and I believe that is as true in Russia as anywhere else.

[myrddin]

Maybe, but keep in mind that in Russia people do not move around much as compared to Russia.

 

Misha, you make some excellent points (which is not a surprise) and I know this is just a typo.  But for some reason this sentence almost makes sense as it is! 

[Boethius]

Maybe, but keep in mind that in Russia people do not move around much as compared to Russia. In Soviet times, you moved even less. If your parents were lucky, they received an apartment before you were born and they would likely live in that apartment until they died. As such, the average Russian grew up in the same apartment, the same neighborhood, playing with the kids from the same courtyard, going to the same schools with them and sometimes even the same university. They would then work in the same city. As such, it gives them a great deal of opportunity to accumulate friends over a lifetime.

Yes, but that "friend" was patting you on the back, or kissing you and wishing you the best right now, then 4 hours later, informing on you.  

Friendship takes time. If you are lucky, you have one or a handful of very close friends

True.

I am not an AW, but I do have American cousins.  Their grammar is fine.  I think part of the reason friendships develop more slowly is that Americans are more individualistic.  However, no matter where you are, unless you are college aged or below, you have to make the effort to make friends.  Further, for women with children, it will be difficult to make friends because these women don't have a lot of spare time.

[Misha]

Yes, but that "friend" was patting you on the back, or kissing you and wishing you the best right now, then 4 hours later, informing on you. 

True, but RW in North America don't remember this when they pine nostalgically for the "friendships" they had back home....  :evil:

Further, for women with children, it will be difficult to make friends because these women don't have a lot of spare time.

A case in point being my wife's best friend in Russia. After my wife left for Canada, her friend was not able to find another friend to replace my wife. All her other friends were busy with their children and husbands and after 3 years, she has not met any new friends from what I gather and nobody else has the time to spend with her, as had my wife, when she was still single and living in Russia.

[Misha]

Misha, you make some excellent points (which is not a surprise) and I know this is just a typo.  But for some reason this sentence almost makes sense as it is! 

LOL! Yes, it was an error. Fixed it replacing the last Russia with North America 

[Boethius]

Hello,

Let me share my point of view on this: I live since 11 years in canada, knowing people on both side of the border (for the detail, I am french) and I am living the same than you.

1 - North American society is based on one individualistic point of view where structure of friendships are extremely hard to enter
2 - Most people will only want to be polite and will have that kind of talk.
3 - General culture level is extremely low if you compare to Europe. Except the last nhl/nba/nfl result, this is difficult to have a talk.
4 - Most people have absolutely no idea about our background culture: we are exotic
5 - My friends are people who travel a lot (and not in tour) or other emigrants like me
6 - People are polite, smile, have a friendly behavior but are not your friend. This word seems to have not the same meaning on both side of the ocean.
7 - For business relation, for most of them, you are interesting the time you can bring something back to them (money or contacts)
8 - Good luck, on the long term, this is the point the more difficult I have found to adapt myself.

What kind of circles do you travel in?  Here, there are so many foreigners, that they are not "exotic".

I find that many people are well informed and culturally astute.  But, it depends on the circles you are familiar with.  Most the people I know are well educated and well read.  Among clients, not as much, but it varies.  But then, they know a lot of things I don't, so I learn new things.  

If one is truly cultured, he/she can speak to someone about any subject, including the NHL/NBA/NFL (or, at least one of the them), and won't comment on that individual's poor grammar.

[Sculpto]

There are a lot of factors in creating real friendships with depth in the USA.  Some of them have already been mentioned.

When I first moved to California I was struck by how nice everyone seemed, but, after a short time I understood most of this feeling of "nice" was fake.  It took many years living here to locate people with common interests and develop lasting friendships with them.

For someone who also suffers a language barrier it will be even more difficult.  I suggest seeking out specific social and recreational groups where it is possible to find people with similar interests as a good way to begin to find people with more depth and sincerity.  Finding quality people in a random way is not going to work.

[GQBlues]

In general, I have to say, although Americans are friendly and meaning well, AW  are very reserved, with an air of superiority ( albeit aren't ashamed of e.g. their very poor grammar in their native language). The communication doesn't go deeper than "how are you" " it's a gorgeous day today", etc. I watched people's topics: usually general, meaningless, infrequently shallow,  smalltalk. It's BORING ! Is it because they don't have much to say or it isn't customary to talk, exchange opinions on a broad range of themes? Is the presence of a  Russian lady in the way ? Or, may be, they are jealous of attention? or may be all of the above? or, may be,  i am  at a loss. Please, advise. Thanks.

Ludmilla-

There's a bit of an irony in that paragraph.

You will find that when you become a little less judgmental you may actually find that what you seek. For a solid friendship to form, an ounce of humility and open-mindedness are basic element that compliments and reinforces most initial encounters. This may also what hindered our brethren from Quebec.

Judge...book...cover.

FWIW.

[elliott]

Why ask if you are not interested in the answer and we almost are never interested in the answer. 

That's the closest to the truth.  Most people really just don't care.  'How's it going?' is a greeting, a rhetorical question; it's not anything that we really want to know.  If the answer is anything other than another greeting or 'good', then the first person will likely think of an excuse to cut short the conversation.

On the flip side, if the 'how's it going' question is actually sincere, many people don't want to answer it in detail (I'm guilty of this 99% of the time), so a reply such as 'good, how are you?' is given.