Who comes first: Spouse or children

[viking]

Ken

I know few parents who will not take a bullet for their kids. I know I would. And many of us put the kids first in more ways than we should have. But there are times when the spouse needs to come first. The issues can vary of course, but basically two people come into a marriage first for love, companionship, whatever, and if the kids affect this relationship, the marriage will have problems. My AW wife and I were very much into each other. Along came babies and we did what we had to , to give them the best we could. But she could not let go, wanted to be the controlling factor in their lives, and rather than sharing her love between me and them, she shifted more to the left and "left" me hanging. I struck, I think, a decent balance, but it takes two to tango.

[Doll]

Gator, do you think you could respect or marry a woman who was conditioned by just one experience of a bad marriage to irrevocably lose all trust in mankind and never again rely on a male creature in the upbringing of her children?  Don't you think such a rigid approach would indicate her inability to use her brains and analyze the ongoing relationship?

Blue, most of AM who marry RW have this bad experience themselves. So what? To not marry them? You're reading this forum and know it.
As for the OP- it depends. What are these places they want to go? If the kid is 9 and he wants Disney World and the man is into races or gambling in Las Vegas? What's the decision?
Besides I often read on RW forum that AM put their kids first and their RW next.
BTW this is sort of the situation in our family. J's kids are everything and more, then excuse me!
After all there is this "for the best interest of the child".
It is hard to judge.
"Use her brains"! You need to know the situation.

[Gator]

I heard it from  Kimora Lee Simmons (Baby Phat). Is she a taker?

Don't know her.  Must be one of those modern women icons.  I guess I don't have enough female hormones to be interested in her.

If she sees men as nothing more than something to be harvested and then discarded, yes.

[Zhena]

Ooooh,what a question.
I would say,any NORMAL mother will put her children first (she may not even realise that until something happens). It is as natural as to breath. If you loose a spouse....it is difficult,but you will survive. If you loose a child....I dont know. Most of moms will trade their own life for the kids if they will have to.And yes,it is NORMAL.
Now,if you marry a woman with the kids. It may be difficult. Many(most)depends on a woman here,her ability to influence her child. Then your own efforts to get along. With the teenagers it may be really difficult. They will look at you as a competitor. If a woman just lets it be,it may seriously hurt a childs psychic and lead to a deep conflict. So the woman will have to be an amortizator here. And yes,I have to agree with the Ken C here. If she will have to choose between you and the kids-a normal woman will choose the kids.
Now,to the original post and the question about the trip. The child have to be asked for certain,but the decision made by the parents-you and a woman only. And a child have to agree with that. Same as all other big decisions. Until he is grown and independent and pays for himself.

[Blues Fairy]

Blue, most of AM who marry RW have this bad experience themselves. So what? To not marry them?

Doll, if those AM were "conditioned", as Gator says, by their past experiences and are projecting, mindlessly, their emotional hurts onto their new spouses - then hell no, I wouldn't advise marrying them!  I generally try to avoid people who allow their emotions to overrule their better judgment.  

[Doll]

Don't know her.  Must be one of those modern women icons.  I guess I don't have enough female hormones to be interested in her.

If she sees men as nothing more than something to be harvested and then discarded, yes.

She is a multi millionaire - she just has this priority.
Kimora is Baby Phat CEO . She says she is this and that but best of all she is the mother. Kids come first.

[Doll]

Doll, if those AM were "conditioned", as Gator says, by their past experiences and are projecting, mindlessly, their emotional hurts onto their new spouses - then hell no, I wouldn't advise marrying them!  I generally try to avoid people who allow their emotions to overrule their better judgment.  

Agree, but the most of the guys here do have this experience or at least they say that AW are all b%@(ches and RW are nice and traditional. Something like that.
I am saying- I was looking for a man with parental skills and understanding, as a result I have what I have. So my sons come first and J. knows that.
My sons, my daughter-in-law and the grandchild.

[Mars]

Sounds to me like this guy is getting manipulated by his wife who clearly does not respect him.  This doesn't seem to be about health insurace, this is about her priorities to her entitlement: money & gifts to her family.  If the husband is not numero uno in his wife's eyes, he's toast.

This came from the thread concerning wife who wanted to drop Health Insurance coverage.

As suggested by DKMM, the same situation as Spouse vs Children exists in the Spouse vs Her (or his family)

So who should come first:  The spouse or her (his) family, aside from the children.
And who generally does come first for the FSUW.

[Phil dAmore]

Will the FSUW ever put you ahead of her children, even where putting you ahead will in no way endanger the health, well being, education, future, etc., of her child.

No.  But that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[Mars]

I would say, any NORMAL mother will put her children first (she may not even realise that until something happens). It is as natural as to breath.

Yes, this is an instict that exists in the animal kingdom as well.
But it mostly refers to the situation where the mother is protecting the offspring against harm, or tending to its health or trying to ensure its preparation for the future.

As I stated in first post, it is also of interest how the mother acts when there are no dangers to her child involved, no threats to health, education, future etc.

How will the mother rank Spouse and Children in these non-threating situations?

[Mars]

No.  But that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Phil, can you expand on why this isn't necessarily a bad thing, including the implications for the man who will never be number one with anybody (assuming his parents are deceased)?

[Boethius]

Why do you need to be "number 1"?  I think that is a somewhat immature outlook.  The goal should be are you happy, and are your needs being met?

ETA - You should also be asking yourself if you are making your wife happy and meeting her (non material) needs.

[Phil dAmore]

Mars:

My situation was unusual as it is rare for a man to move to the woman's home country.  In retrospect I feel that this radically altered the dynamic of the relationship.  When the woman comes to you she is, to a certain extent dependent on you because she is out of her element.  With me it was the opposite.  She had the home court advantage and I was the transplant.

What makes it  not necessarily bad is knowing where the woman's true priorities lie. Now, not every man can live in this manner, that is not being number one in his woman's life.  But for me it was an acceptable compromise.  I admired Nina's dedication to her daughter from the outset.

It's not like I was perpetually in second place.  When it was just the two of us I was definitely number one.  In my earliest posts (on the old - old board) I wrote about how I had no doubt that should it become necessary Nina would take a bullet for me.  At the time it was true.  The only exception would be if it were a choice between saving me or saving her daughter in which case I would be eating lead.  Again, this didn't bother me because it just seemed natural.  Blood is thicker than water and all that.

From the very beginning  I knew that Nina was never going to place me first as she and her daughter (who was 18 when we met) were simply too close.  Nina had been widowed for almost 9 years and therefore it was only she and her daughter for all that time.

All of a sudden from the other side of the world comes me, and in a fairly short time managed to seriously involve myself into their lives.  It would have been the height of arrogance for me to assume that Nina would sideline her own flesh and blood for this goofy American who decided to drop everything and move there.  I was all right with this. 

[Zhena]

Yes, this is an instict that exists in the animal kingdom as well.
But it mostly refers to the situation where the mother is protecting the offspring against harm, or tending to its health or trying to ensure its preparation for the future.

As I stated in first post, it is also of interest how the mother acts when there are no dangers to her child involved, no threats to health, education, future etc.

How will the mother rank Spouse and Children in these non-threating situations?

Honestly-I dont know how to rank. Its such the different things. Both are precious,the husband is the husband and a child is the child. I have different feelengs toward them.So the question who is first ,is uncorrect. The purpose is to make a happy,strong family. With an every member feeling good and appreciated. The children like to see mom and dad loving each other.Then the children feel secure and confident. Also the parents should be an authority without any doubts. I dont kn ow,if I answered your question,but this is how I see it.

[Doll]

Why do you need to be "number 1"?  I think that is a somewhat immature outlook.  The goal should be are you happy, and are your needs being met?

ETA - You should also be asking yourself if you are making your wife happy and meeting her (non material) needs.

good questions

[Misha]

So who should come first:  The spouse or her (his) family, aside from the children.
And who generally does come first for the FSUW.

I am not sure whether it is a question of who comes first or second or third, but more a question of finding the time to be a couple. It might be as simple as having a date once a week where you find a babysitter once a week to have an evening out with the kids where you can enjoy each others company. In other words, you can be a good parent without being obsessive about the kids. I have known some mothers who were so smothering from the get-go that they would not trust their child with their husband let alone a babysitter. It is important to work on finding balance.

[KenC]

Since this thread is more about family dynamics regarding children/spouse potential conflicts, I think that experiences are not necessarily limited to RW/AM marriages.

Regardless of the advice sited above from the clinical psychologist, my first wife and I put our children first which is only proper IMO.  This does not mean you ignore your spouse or even your own wants and desires, but children need the focus of your attention for many years.  But this is a diminishing need over time.  I have always been of the opinion that it is a parents responsibility to rear their children to become independent self functioning adults.  The tricky part, as I see it, is how to dial back your parental guidance as your children mature.  It seems as though mothers have a more difficult time in recognising and accepting that their children "need" them less and less as they mature.

When the children grow to an age where the constant mothering is not necessary or even wanted by the children, the mothers sometime go through a psychological quandary of how to fulfill themselves now that their children are no longer dependent upon their constant care.  This is especially true if the mother has built her total life around motherhood.  Many women lose their own identity and face a very difficult transition at this point of their lives.  It is no wonder that many mothers have difficulty in letting go.

Some mothers never completely let go either.  I see it in my adult children's relationship even now with their mother.  She continues to try to control or interject her influence on them even though they are both in their 30's.  They have grown to resent her meddling in their affairs and it is a source of constant friction between them.

I on the other hand listen to my children's trials and tribulations, ask them their opinions on how to resolve problems and only dispense advice when requested.  I try my best to lead them to come to their own conclusions with good conflict resolution skills of their own.  It is because of this that they are much more likely to seek me out for advice than they are of their mother.

I will say that my ex Russian mother in law was a VERY dominate woman and tried her best to control every actions of my ex Russian wife.  This could have been a big problem if she had lived locally or if her daughter was not such a strong person herself.  Whether this is typical of Russian families, I do not know.
KenC

[GQBlues]

I will say that my ex Russian mother in law was a VERY dominate woman and tried her best to control every actions of my ex Russian wife.  This could have been a big problem if she had lived locally or if her daughter was not such a strong person herself.  Whether this is typical of Russian families, I do not know.

Good post above Ken...

I have the identical experience with my MIL. The last episode prompted me to retract my enthusiasm towards my in-laws, mostly towards my MIL. I am always hopeful she doesn't challenge me.

[KenC]

Good post above Ken...

I have the identical experience with my MIL. The last episode prompted me to retract my enthusiasm towards my in-laws, mostly towards my MIL. I am always hopeful she doesn't challenge me.

GQ,
There is some solace in not having a common language!

I always knew my MIL wanted a piece of me, but I would laugh it off and do whatever I wanted.  In her heart, she is a good person, but just a control freak. Lena and her would go at it tooth and nail.  I would REALLY drive her nuts when I cooked while she was here.
KenC

[GQBlues]

In support of the thread, another angle to this topic's question is: Who comes first, spouse or Mama?

My wife was talking to my in-laws through messenger one night in preparation for their visit to us when I noticed things got very quiet. The door to our media room was ajar and the room was dark, so curiously I walked inside only to find my wife crying her heart out. After telling me what happened I knew my MIL had used up her last pass with me. I do not take too kindly to anyone putting my wife in that position. My wife had initially agreed with our position and stood her ground in her discussion with her mother and resulted in a fight. My wife didn't waver but it obviously still took a toll on her.

I got out of the kitchen in my teen when the heat got too much for me from my own family and left home. I never once took a step back from that decision. My MIL had hardly earned any points on me to be testing these waters with me. I will not even put my wife in the position to 'choose' if it ever gets to that because I will simply bail.

[KenC]

GQ,
Your last paragraph is a bit cryptic.  "Bail" on what? or whom?
KenC

[Misha]

my MIL had used up her last pass with me

Maybe I am just not getting something, but what do you mean by last "pass"?

[Dave13]

What would most RW's say to being second or third on the man list

[KenC]

What would most RW's say to being second or third on the man list

Dave,
GREAT question!  Color her gone!
KenC

[GQBlues]

GQ,
Your last paragraph is a bit cryptic.  "Bail" on what? or whom?

Ken-

It is what you 'think' it is...

I would go to the ends of the world for my wife and marriage and I have no doubt my wife feels the same way. That, by extension, applies to everyone who's an integral part of my wife's life and love. But if there comes a time where both my home and marriage becomes someone else's depot for control and power play by virtue of family association, then I feel that's both a disrespect for my marriage, myself and my wife. And if my wife ever condoned this from ever happening - I would have no further cause or reason of living a life within it. What's the point of being married if someone else controls it.

I will not lay witness seeing my wife in that situation ever again, not specially from my MIL. I spoke with my wife about this and there is no misunderstanding on both our positions. Her mother will just have to mind her own marriage and park it there. This ain't Russia no more.

Conversely, my wife understands this applies on my side of the family as well. Once anyone of my family begins to infringe into our home and marriage, thus disrespects my wife, then I will head on deal with them.