Understanding the discourse: romantic.

[mies]

What do you, western guys, understand by being "romantic"?
What are the features that define a romantic man?
What are the features that define romantic woman? 

Sorry if this is a doubled topic and question was already discussed on the forum.

[docetae]

I will try to explain my point of view in english, this would have been more easy in french...
Being romantic is not a feature or something you can learn, for both men and women.
being romantic is a state of mind, where you are able to capture one instant and get it out of time.

This is not about flowers or soft music. This is not about being with a woman or alone. To be romantic is to be a leaf in the wind of autumn. This is having soul going above materialistic consideration, catching the depth of passion.

Passion is something you live totally, that you are accepting to be victim of it. There can be no romanticism without passion. This is more easy to catch these times when you are more close to elements, when nature shows how world is beautiful, out of the noise of everyday life. And to be romantic with a woman is only to be able to share and understand these times together as one being, one soul.

[Mars]

For me, being romantic means nice smiles, nice manners, nice words, nice events (ballet, orchestra), nice meals (at home or restaurant), nice kisses, nice music, subdued lighting (often candles), good foreplay bringing the female to full arousal and good sex with multiple orgasms (as many as she can or wants to attain . . . I will use all means to help her achieve this) for the woman.

Unfortunately, I refuse to consider flowers to be an important part, which casts me automatically as unromantic with several (many, most) women, despite all the other factors listed above.

And, just after my post, I read docetae's post, so I must add to my shortcomings my lack of overly flowery words that are not understandable but probably sound romantic to many women.

[mies]

I will try to explain my point of view in english, this would have been more easy in french...
Being romantic is not a feature or something you can learn, for both men and women.
being romantic is a state of mind, where you are able to capture one instant and get it out of time.

This is not about flowers or soft music. This is not about being with a woman or alone. To be romantic is to be a leaf in the wind of autumn. This is having soul going above materialistic consideration, catching the depth of passion.

Passion is something you live totally, that you are accepting to be victim of it. There can be no romanticism without passion. This is more easy to catch these times when you are more close to elements, when nature shows how world is beautiful, out of the noise of everyday life. And to be romantic with a woman is only to be able to share and understand these times together as one being, one soul.

that's a very beautiful reply - thank you. Do you think being romantic is more of "possessing" or "belonging"? or both, depending on person?
let's say - when there is passion - one mostly desires to actually possess the object of passion - to master the music/dance/art, to be together with lover, and so on.
while being united with elements - is more about dissolving in them - belonging, foregoing own desires to be a leaf in the wind.
what do you think?

[mies]

Unfortunately, I refuse to consider flowers to be an important part,

why?

[Mars]

Mies said to docetae:  that's a very beautiful reply - thank you.

See, I said that women seem to love this crap!!  :-))

Why no flowers:  First, I just never think of them.  Second,  if I do think of them, they are not available.  Third, it seems a terrible waste of money for something that will have such a short life.  Rather take the money spent on flowers say 6 times or so, and buy the gal a nice set of earrings, etc.

However,  I readily admit that I know most women love the flowers and the meaningless words.  But just can't do it.

[mies]

Mies:  that's a very beautiful reply - thank you.

See, I said that women seem to love this crap!!  :-))

Why no flowers:  First, I just never think of them.  Second,  if I do think of them, they are not available.  Third, it seems a terrible waste of money for something that will have such a short life.  Rather take the money spent on flowers say 6 times or so, and buy the gal a nice set of earrings, etc.

However,  I readily admit that I know most women love the flowers and the meaningless words.  But just can't do it.

i try i was under impression that men prefer romantic women 

one of my friends used to eat once a day. He was saying "it's an awful waste of time - you eat, than you have to crap, then few hours later you are hungry again - and this time could be spent on work instead."  
but i digressed..
my husband thinks about flowers same way as you do LOL but he is gradually changing... not without my gentle help

[Mars]

So you are willing to give up an incremental set of earrings in favor of a few sets of flowers?

[docetae]

that's a very beautiful reply - thank you. Do you think being romantic is more of "possessing" or "belonging"? or both, depending on person?
let's say - when there is passion - one mostly desires to actually possess the object of passion - to master the music/dance/art, to be together with lover, and so on.
while being united with elements - is more about dissolving in them - belonging, foregoing own desires to be a leaf in the wind.
what do you think?

In the case of the passion, you don't want to possess the object of passion. You want to be possessed by it. And if there is love, this feeling is shared. So this lead to a fusion.
About flowers, this is just a way to keep this state of mind. There are not a finality by themselves...

[mies]

So you are willing to give up an incremental set of earrings in favor of a few sets of flowers?

 i am quite indifferent about jewelry. Mostly because when i wear it - i can never see it and i am very visual and tactile. And also - because i can wear same earrings for 3 years in a row without changing. While the rest pairs are hidden and there is little use of them. Of course they can be sold if money needed. So probably i'm not the right person to be asked this question. I think i would prefer flowers over (almost) any other tangible non-live present. especially over jewelry.
overall "flowers or jewelry" is a modification of butter vs. guns problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_versus_butter_model

question for you Mars:
would you prefer a woman who:
- ask you for earrings
- ask you for flowers
- don't ask for anything and accept happily everything
- don't ask for anything but only happy when you give her flowers
- don't ask for anything and you never give her anything

and my first question is still open: what features in a woman will make her a "romantic" in male eyes?

[I/O]

Crap, this one looks too complicated for me. Somebody mentioned foreplay, is there something more to that walking through the door and yelling "Honey I'm home"?

[ECOCKS]

To me, romance focuses on simply enjoying being together. Sometimes, that may involve a sunset, champagne and soft troical breezes but other times it can be the kitchen, with a ham and chese sandwich, chocolate chip cookies and tea.

If both are not struck by the true feeling of romance of a situation, then I suspect there is little or no love or sense of relationship between them. Simply, others' definitions are of no concern to me or the woman at that point.

As Mars stated, flowers have absolutely no place in the definition for me either.

[Taz]

I never thought about romance needing a specific situation. I thought almost any(maybe not all of course) situation could be romantic. You don't need to go to a nice restaurant or the ballet. That is about material things. One of the most romantic dates I ever had was a very inexpensive one. The Russian woman I was dating just came out of the university and I met her with a picnic basket. Lets just say it had an even better effect than planned. She said it was the most romantic thing anyone had ever done for her.

My personal perspective is romance is a state of mind. The better I understand my partner, the more romantic I can be. Sure, there may be some common things women like but I want to understand what MY woman likes!!! Then I can rock her world and make her feel even more special. Romance for me isn't something I turn on and off like the water faucet. It is something that permeates my soul about 90% of the time I am awake. It would be more but I have to work sometime...

While I like to give gifts, giving an expensive gift isn't romantic as much as giving a thoughtful gift. Giving a thoughtful gift means you really put some effort into choosing just the thing you thought your partner might really appreciate. Of course it isn't going to be a gift like a vacuum cleaner or new dishwasher. I never give those kinds of gifts unless she specifically asks for it. I'd rather do something special for my partner than give them something. Nothing is more valuable to me than my time.  It is what I have the least of.

[mies]

Crap, this one looks too complicated for me. Somebody mentioned foreplay, is there something more to that walking through the door and yelling "Honey I'm home"?

what a nice big home you have 

[XMan]

This has been interesting reading.  

I think romance has a thousand definitions, or perhaps a million, dependent upon the soul of the person.  
One can do something that one considers to be incredibly romantic, and yet have it be ill-received.  
(A very unpleasant experience, I assure you.)  
So a person needs to know the intended audience, if you will.  
I once gave diamond earrings as a special birthday present.  
It may as well have been a case of motor oil.  
To me it was this incredibly romantic gift that I spent a lot of time thinking about and picking out (beauty, brilliance, permanence, etc.).  But to her, a different story entirely.  (I should also note, however, that some women are far more difficult to please than others.  And I know at least one that is impossible to please.  When you come across one of those, RUN, do NOT walk, in the other direction post haste.  Skiddadle. Scram. Bolt. Jet. Rocket. You get the picture.)  
 
I also think perception is impacted by intent.  In other words, if giving flowers and chocolates is a mechanical action where one feels one must do something that is "expected" or "required," I'm not sure how effective it will be.  

The most romantic thing one can do is to understand what the woman herself feels is romantic, and make an effort to do that.  

But one must feel it.  

I find a great deal of beauty in flowers, perhaps more so because they are temporary.  But I also am a huge admirer of nature, and enjoy gardening and the outdoors in general.  Still, I prefer growing them far more than buying "prepared," overpriced boquets.  But will I do it if that is her "currency," the thing that she values?  
Of course.
The alternative is the diamond earrings I mentioned above.  
Not something I want to repeat anytime soon.

[I/O]

what a nice big home you have 

And.........that's not all.

[Blues Fairy]

I always used to think of romanticism in the context of history - after the Enlightenment with its rationalization of everything, the Romantic epoch came and changed the focus to emotional experience, i.e. Feeling as opposed to Reason.  Thus romantic gestures are the more romantic the less they are constrained by enlightened calculation (e.g. budgetary constraints) 
 

In the case of the passion, you don't want to possess the object of passion. You want to be possessed by it.

I beg to differ!  Take passion for ice-cream for example; how is it possible to be possessed by it?  I'd much rather possess it!  Same with people. 

[docetae]

I always used to think of romanticism in the context of history - after the Enlightenment with its rationalization of everything, the Romantic epoch came and changed the focus to emotional experience, i.e. Feeling as opposed to Reason.  Thus romantic gestures are the more romantic the less they are constrained by enlightened calculation (e.g. budgetary constraints) 
 
I beg to differ!  Take passion for ice-cream for example; how is it possible to be possessed by it?  I'd much rather possess it!  Same with people. 

No, because ice cream is material. Love is not (except for people with big home :p ) .  People do not use right words. Sentimentalism is what people are calling romanticism (nice evening with candle, etc) . Romanticism is passion.

[Vaughn]

docetae,

  For a man whose English is a second language, your first post proved to be very eloquently stated. Well
done my friend.

  Let me once again plug what I recommend to WM courting a FSU lady who speaks little or no English. This
affordable baby assisted me greatly in conveying my feelings to my future wife. And IMHO, many fail to
recognize the value of an occasional snail mail letter - so much more appreciated than the modern electronic
expression of one's passion....

[KenC]

I guess my concept of romance is along the lines stated above by Taz.  It is a state of mind.  It is the art of giving.  Not necessarily material things, but they could be included too.  It is the thought of expressing your love for someone.  The better you know the other person, the better you can express your love.  Not all people are able to accept romantic expressions either.  The other party must be interested in receiving the "gift" of love or no matter what it is you offer up, it will fall on deaf ears or more appropriately a cold heart.

I read here where some guys say "I like to give...."  That doesn't really matter.  What matters is what she wants to receive.  In order to romance a woman properly, you need to know what it is that puts her in a loving mood and then do it.  It is the thoughtfulness of the gift or action that is most important.  A gift or action from your heart to hers.  And it works both ways too.

Of course all this assumes that she does have a heart and some desire to receive your affection.  Sometimes you can do everything right, meaning put forth your best effort to be the most thoughtful you could be and have it not received well.  It takes two to be romantic.
KenC

[mies]

The alternative is the diamond earrings I mentioned above.  
Not something I want to repeat anytime soon.

that's interesting you mentioned earrings.
I've read a story on one of the other forums - about a year ago. Woman told that she throw away diamond earrings that her man gave to her. She did so because she wanted some particular present - different set of earrings. And for some reason man picked not what she wanted and asked him for. Woman took it as he did not care about her.

unrelated to your story - just remembered of it.

[UTRO]

Docetae is correct. Romance has nothing to do with Gifts. Rather, as Taz reiterated, "it is a state of mind". It's your ability to put your partner into that state with you at any given time. A gift is simply a Romantic Prop just as making dinner is, playing soft music, etc...
BTW, if I go into the field next to my house and cut Svetlana some free field flowers, WEEDS(!), she melts just as if I bought them from a florist

[KenC]

Docetae is correct. Romance has nothing to do with Gifts. Rather, as Taz reiterated, "it is a state of mind". It's your ability to put your partner into that state with you at any given time. A gift is simply a Romantic Prop just as making dinner is, playing soft music, etc...
BTW, if I go into the field next to my house and cut Svetlana some free field flowers, WEEDS(!), she melts just as if I bought them from a florist

Utrobina,
I disagree with you, but just on a few minor points.  "Gifts" could be anything, not just material things.  For example, your "gift" of flowering weeds. 

Another thing I would like to point out is that a materialistic gift can also be romantic.  Of it is the thought that counts most, then an expensive gift can be thoughtful too.
KenC

[Mars]

question for you Mars:
would you prefer a woman who:
- ask you for earrings
- ask you for flowers
- don't ask for anything and accept happily everything
- don't ask for anything but only happy when you give her flowers
- don't ask for anything and you never give her anything

and my first question is still open: what features in a woman will make her a "romantic" in male eyes?

Ask me for earrings:  No, I would not like this; unless I had first asked her what
present she would like for something like birthday, Valentines Day, Christmas, etc.
But actually, I have never asked a woman what she wanted in this context.  I like to chose.

Don't ask for anything and accept happily everything:  Well sure, this sounds like an ideal mate.

Don't ask for anything and you never give her anything: Sounds pretty good too! :-)) But I don't think I could resist giving something.

Don't ask for anything but only happy when you give her flowers:
Ask you for flowers:

I will answer these last two together.  No, I wouldn't like either.
This subject of flowers (in the context of asking for them) actually brings up some very painful memories for me which I was going to share with everyone here.  But I quickly realized I would open myself up to even more painful comments, so I stopped just in time!!  However Mies, if you are interested, I might send you a PM sometime about it since you seem to have a particular interest in flowers.

As to your original question:  "what features in a woman will make her a "romantic" in male eyes?"

I guess honestly I haven't thought much about it.  I am a typical male (just more honest about it than most) who thinks more directly about the sexual aspects of romance than do most women.  So I guess a woman would impress me as romantic when I feel that she is also thinking along sexual lines.  This doesn't mean sex on first date or quick sex in any setting, but just the general aura that she projects that indicates she is very interested in me in that regard.  This can be gleaned from the way she dresses for me, the way she walks to me, the way she looks at me, the way she smiles at me, the way she shows her care for me, the way she touches me, the way she dances with me, etc., etc.

[UTRO]

Utrobina,
I disagree with you, but just on a few minor points.  "Gifts" could be anything, not just material things.  For example, your "gift" of flowering weeds. 

Another thing I would like to point out is that a materialistic gift can also be romantic.  Of it is the thought that counts most, then an expensive gift can be thoughtful too.
KenC

lol! .... kinda' like choosing a Romantic First Class Private Sleeper with Dinning Car from St.Petersburg to Kirov vs a Third Class Open Bunk Coach?? Okay, you've got me there Ken