Should men seek advice from RWD?

[Ade]

I'm one of those that believe you should be open and honest with someone you plan to visit; lying by omission is still lying. Of course, as someone pointed out, in a MOB dating agency type environment most anticipate that the people they are talking to are also talking to others and may even be visiting them. Still, I think there are women even in these environments that would expect you to visit them only and I see nothing inherently wrong with that, it's their choice after all. Not being open with them removes that choice and the reverse is also true of course if they aren't honest with you; if you guys have issues with women that would require you to have a monogamous visit then you should find someone else graciously.

FWIW I certainly would not have entertained visiting my wife had she been  dating or even talking to other guys but then again, I wasn't desperately trying to find a RW to marry and I had options at home if I'd wanted them. I also stopped talking to other women (in the dating sense ) once it became clear that I was interested in focusing on my wife and that was after just a few days after we started talking and I made that clear to her.

We all have choices and requirements and I understand the need for some men to line up a bunch of women "just in case" but it's incredibly narrow minded not to accept that some women do not want to be one of many and want the choice not to be.

[Ade]

You have a leg to stand on with respect to the money angle, but quite a stretch to bring in the vacation time.  In your ideal, only men with extra ordinary vacation time should get involved.

Also, I respect your experience and comments on many topics, however I think you would do us all a favor if in each of your posts (you could put it in your byline) that you are not speaking from the general framework of men who are traveling to a different county in this venture.  You did it from an 'in-country' viewpoint. 

That alone makes a lot (most?) of your comments quite irrelevant for the average guy.

I agree with BC; if you can't spend enough time in country the likelihood of short term or long term disaster increases dramatically. My guess is that the majority of train wrecks occur just because these guys did not spend enough time with their prospective wives. 

If I couldn't have spent the many months with my wife that I did spend, I would not have been willing to get involved in the first place; it would not have been fair on either of us.

Do you honestly think it's wise that American's with just couple of weeks a year vacation time are attempting this? Personally, I think it's extremely inadvisable.

[Turboguy]

I think you could look at anything in life as being extremely inadvisable.  Does getting married to someone at all see advisable.   You get all your problems and theirs too, have to worry about things that can go wrong.   How about a job, take one of those and you have to pay taxes, worry about transportation.  Darn, buying a house, all that upkeep, taxes, mowing grass. 

I have always believed you decide what  you want in life, what is really important then you decide how to accomplish it with the assets and limitations you have.   I don't see a problem with someone who only has two weeks vacation a year accomplishing this, they just need to approach it a bit different than those who can spend all kinds of time there.

As far as that honesty thing, I have to agree with Ken, you need to tell her most everything but not before you meet.   I think dating is getting to know each other and as you get to know each other you can find out more about your lives.   Frankly I never wanted to know everything.   I would want to know the person I am marrying but never felt I needed to know every detail about everything that happened.

[Ade]

I think you could look at anything in life as being extremely inadvisable.  Does getting married to someone at all see advisable.   You get all your problems and theirs too, have to worry about things that can go wrong.   How about a job, take one of those and you have to pay taxes, worry about transportation.  Darn, buying a house, all that upkeep, taxes, mowing grass. 

I have always believed you decide what  you want in life, what is really important then you decide how to accomplish it with the assets and limitations you have.   I don't see a problem with someone who only has two weeks vacation a year accomplishing this, they just need to approach it a bit different than those who can spend all kinds of time there.

It's all about risk assessment. Sure, it's not impossible for one-week wonders to do it but it increases the risks astronomically. A typical scenario would be a failed K1 or a GCG/DV train wreck.

At least in Schegen Europe these guys with limited vacations can bring the girl over for 6 months out of every year. And "limited" in Europe usually means at least 4 weeks of vacation. A lot of us have 5 or 6 weeks; if you include public holidays, it's not that uncommon to have 7 or 8 weeks to play with.

For the average American, it would take several years of their vacation just to have a month or two with their prospective wives. But of course we know that doesn't happen, instead you have failed K1's and marriages of strangers.
 

As far as that honesty thing, I have to agree with Ken, you need to tell her most everything but not before you meet.   I think dating is getting to know each other and as you get to know each other you can find out more about your lives.   Frankly I never wanted to know everything.   I would want to know the person I am marrying but never felt I needed to know every detail about everything that happened.

I think at least some women would agree with you but some certainly wouldn't; my wife would not have met with me if she thought I was going to visit others during my trip. And if you knew that a woman you were going to visit felt the same way would you deliberately withhold information from her because, "you choose not to share every intimate detail with a woman before you've met"? If so, you're limiting her to an uninformed choice and lying by omission.

[Gator]

The thread is about whether men should seek advice from RWD.  VO vs VM is an issue, and I find this RWD advice very appropriate:

Gator: You are touching on something I’ve observed over a number of years. Far too many WM are trying to implant (almost dictate) their “dating” philosophy on RW and from my observations they will be pushing sch!t up hill for a long time because……………

Again, from my observations past and present (including within the last 6 months on the ground in 4 different Russian locations) for the most part if a RW decides / agrees to “go out” (date if you like) a guy, RM or WM, she sees him as the (not A but the) present marriage prospect until proven otherwise. 

We all have choices and requirements and I understand the need for some men to line up a bunch of women "just in case" but it's incredibly narrow minded not to accept that some women do not want to be one of many and want the choice not to be.

And when she does ask if you are writing/meeting other women?  As you sow so shall you reap.


Caveat:  Some RW are doing the same and don't  tell you.  They might have a RM boyfriend, f_____buddy, or sponsor.  They might be writing other foreigneres.  They might have already met another foreigner whom they are interesed in but he/she is not ready yet to commit.  I know of instances of each of these.   

[Misha]

My guess is that the majority of train wrecks occur just because these guys did not spend enough time with their prospective wives.

That and the fact that they were usually blinded by lust and fantasy (their own or the MOB myths) and discounted all the evidence that should have sent them fleeing in the first week as "cultural"...

[OlgaH]

Caveat:  Some RW are doing the same and don't  tell you.  They might have a RM boyfriend, f_____buddy, or sponsor...  

So, they deserve a man who keep a bunch of women as a reserve (на черный день as we say in Russia)  

A decent woman deserves and expects an elementary decency from a man  

[KenC]

SJ,
First let me say that I do not agree that choosing not to share certain details of your life with a new acquaintance is a lie of any sort.  There is no obligation IMO that anyone bare their soul prior to having even met.  The only "obligation" is to offer enough information as the couple deem mutually necessary to share some time together to explore the possibilities of developing a future relationship. I can appreciate that some women would demand to be exclusive from first eye to eye meeting.  I happen to be of the opinion that to pledge exclusivity to a woman you have never yet met is foolish at best.  If a woman would insist on an exclusive arrangement from the first date, I would pass on meeting her.

Any relationship is an evolution of emotions and knowledge of each other.  Just as I would never profess love for a woman before meeting her, I do not feel obligated to provide every detail of my life either.  Some women, you and GQ believe that it is mandatory to begin every relationship with full disclosure of ones dating status while I and others do not.  We need to agree to disagree.  It is a personal choice of when in any relationship certain information will be shared or not shared.
KenC

[BC]

Has nothing to do with whether what you say is liked or not. 
Rather, much of what you say is simply irrelevant to the average poster here who is facing an entirely different situation.

Your comments about married life with a FSUW are very relevant. 
Your comments about getting to the married stage are not; because you faced a much different environment.

My view on this extends to several other posters here such as Misha and others whom I don't quite remember right now.  You, Misha and these others simply faced an entirely different environment than the vast majority of the posters here.

The comments from your group show an almost complete lack of reality (with respect to helpfulness to the other men) similar to those espoused by Marie Antoinette.

Mars,

You do have an interesting discussion point with your views that would be worth following up on IMHO.  Suggest you post a new topic and I'll meet you there instead of complicating this one.  Misha and others might also want to join in.

[GQBlues]

ON THE LEVEL?  WTF is not on the level about choosing NOT to share every intimate detail of your life before you meet a woman?  Get real dude.  I guess I am not so desperate to submit to an anal exam prior to getting involved with a woman like you seem to suggest is the only way to be "on the level."  Your attitude that there is something devious about not sharing every detail prior to having a relationship is total BS.
  All in due time dude.  A relationship is a journey not a destination.  You share more and more things as their relationship progresses.  A new acquaintance does not need to know every detail of your life in the beginning or in this case even before the real relationship begins.
 
No, it isn't any of my or her business in the beginning stages of a relationship.  The only thing that is important is to know you enjoy each others company.  Period.  Where the relationship leads you will determine what and how much you each want to voluntarily divulge.Oh, so you required a sexual history and a current STD test before you met your wife?  I must of missed that part of your trip report.
More BS from you!  I see no conflict in the two different scenarios at all.  I would never volunteer the information that I would be meeting other women.  I do not see this as a devious practice in any way.  It is simply not relevant to the first meeting. I  am not so desperate for any woman to offer up the details in order to meet her.  If a woman rudely persists to demand such information, I would not lie to her, but I would seriously consider not meeting her as this action would tend to be a warning sign for her insecurity or controlling nature.  To think that the man OWES a detailed explanation of his personal life in order to meet a woman is ridiculous and a sure sign of one desperate man.
KenC

Touchy, touchy Ken. Get a grip. Again, sharing a part of an obvious segment in dating IS NOT an act of IDENTITY theft. LOL. You need to step off the puter and start socializing again, man. You're getting waaaay too dramatic these days.

You are trying so hard to disown that little BS you stated above (statement #1 for clarity) by appearing to be a big bad wolf (Grrrrr) and now thumping your chest growling - 'Hey, it's my life...blah, blah, blah!!!'. OK, dude, I get the point - you can neatly disown the first statement. LOL.

Sexual history, anal exam, attitude, BS....Ken, LOL, how long has it been since you entered the the fight or flight zone? Get a grip, dawg. I made a statement NOT directed at you, you came to disagree with me. I pointed at that maybe you misunderstood what I said and reiterated that in my response to you. Since then you've been blowing smoke up the kazoo, dude.

 'Oh, I'll tell her, Oh, It's my life!, Oh! in due time!' 'Oh! It's private! - I get where you comin' from bro. You think it's confusing on your side, LOL....and you say I'm being pissy.

For RWs reading this, this is what AWs see at home, you don't - yet. Get your stickies and note it.

For you guys out there: If you are not comfortable going to FSU dating one woman, fine. No one is asking you to do so. Matter of fact, if you don't like to participate in any of this - don't. If you find comfort in dating as many as you can during your trip, tell each one of them that that is what you want to do. If they don't like it, fine. Trust me, RWs didn't crawl out of the Arctic cave someplace - there's a better than a good chance they are far more social savvy than most men who steps off the FSU tarmac - so there will be women who'll appreciate your honesty and would even agree with you. How bad can that be, right?

Contrary to the popular consensus of the experts here - it isn't akin to giving your life's secret, nor is it the same as an invasion of your privacy. Russian women simply wants to know a very simple, basic, or as Olga said - ELEMENTARY - segment of their association with you. That is never equal to asking you for the PIN on your ATM cards. LOL.

Yes, there's a good probabilty you'll have women not wanting to be a part of your trip if you are seeing other women. That's OK. It's their right to do so and wish them well. That is far easier to do than deceiving them into believing something otherwise.

One more note: Walking into an agency, sitting down with the agency's menu is NOT dating. That would be like going to a restaurant in Russia by yourself and you can't read cyrillic and the waitress don't speak English, so you're left having to rely on pointing at pictures of food so you can eat.

If you find yourself in this situation, please one advice to you - date as many as you can at home - first. Undertsand how to properly associate with the opposite sex before trying to marry a foreign woman - let alone one who can't speak your language. It will make a whole lot of things easier in your life.

Disclaimer: I am married but to only ONE Russian woman. I know, met, dated, associate with some Russian / Ukrainian women. By no stretch of the imagination do I consider myself an expert, or make claims as such, of all things FSU, it's women, it's culture, it's history, etc...take what I say in this hall with a grain of salt. There are OVERLORDS in these boards dealing with Russian women 101  Know them and know them well.

[OlgaH]

Some women, you and GQ believe that it is mandatory to begin every relationship with full disclosure of ones dating status while I and others do not.  We need to agree to disagree.  It is a personal choice of when in any relationship certain information will be shared or not shared.
KenC

Ken,
Of course it is personal choice  But as for me, with my respect to your believes, I would prefer a man to be honest about his dating status. If his is married or has a girlfriend I would appreciate his honesty at the very beginning. If he being in international dating says that he would like to visit me I also would appreciate he would tell me honestly that I'm not only woman in his list to visit and let me decide to participate or not, and probably my decision would depend on my level of interest in that man  I just believe that even very beginning of relationship should start with mutual elementary honesty and ethics.   

[Bored1]

It seem to me the best way to answer this for a mans wanting to know the probables of being politely decline an invitation when seeing many womans in a visit is to ask all the RW woamns here what they would do.  Not necessary what they did in time past but what they would do today.

If they is enough answer then there will be a small and maybe not accurate guide to what a mans can expect as a percentage who will see him and who will not.

It is only my thought but as there RW womans here who can answer then it may provide an answer to the mans?

[Blues Fairy]

It's weird to see big words like "elementary decency" and "ethics" thrown around to describe a simple situation of non-exclusive dating.  I understand we are not talking about a married man or man who has a girlfriend going on dates with other ladies and not telling them about his status?  

As for going out on coffee dates with multiple ladies and expecting them not to pry, where's the non-decency and non-ethics?  Seems perfectly normal to me.  I wouldn't expect the man to cater to my insecurities and disclose all his dating arrangements at the very first meeting.  

[OlgaH]

It's weird to see big words like "elementary decency" and "ethics" thrown around to describe a simple situation of non-exclusive dating.  I understand we are not talking about a married man or man who has a girlfriend going on dates with other ladies and not telling them about his status?  

No, Blues Fairy, it is not just big words thrown around it is just a life that is not just white and black, but life with many different colors and different situations.

[Blues Fairy]

No, Blues Fairy, it is not just big words thrown around it is just a life that is not just white and black, but life with many different colors and different situations.

All the more reason not to be overly moralistic about the grey shades and try to paint them blackest black on every occasion. 

[Jooky]

Some quick comments, experiences, observations...

I've never had a Russian woman I met online ask me if I was going to meet (or if I was currently meeting with) other women. The subject has just never come up, so unless you're dealing with someone really insecure or possessive, I think the principal argument here is a non issue.

I have been accused of being able to meet other women by two women from Moscow I found through Elena's Models. One explained it to me quite well. Since I was already in Moscow, had friends there and understood some Russian, I could easily meet other women (competition) and she wouldn't be able to control me or lead me around. I passed on meeting these two.

I have had a few women during a first meeting (either a date or at a club) ask me if I was married or with a serious girlfriend. Apparently if I did it wouldn't be a problem.

I don't see dating as much different in Russia than anywhere else. Some couples date seriously and marry quickly. Some date seriously for years. Some live together. Some don't. Some date casually. Some line up a string of one night stands. Some have sponsors. Some have ongoing affairs.

From what I've seen there are more sponsor type relationships and even in normal relationships a man spends more money on a woman than back in the US (more gifts, more expensive gifts and going dutch is rare). I'd also say there might be more extramarital affairs, but maybe Russians are just more open about them than in the US.

There are definitely women on bridal sites that are lining up meetings with several foreign men, still dating back home or even still married. I know of a few right now that are trying to plan romantic trips with me (unsuccessfully, I'm too busy) while hooking up meetings (probably 'exclusive' ones) with guys that are getting ready to get on that plane. Maybe some of you out there?

Anyways, I vote for no deception and no need to promise exclusivity before a first meeting.

[OlgaH]

All the more reason not to be overly moralistic about the grey shades and try to paint them blackest black on every occasion. 

There is nothing moralistic in my words. If you have found something moralistic it is just your own perception that doesn't mean to be right. 

[Blues Fairy]

There is nothing moralistic in my words. If you have found something moralistic it is just your own perception that doesn't mean to be right. 

Yes, yes, I know there's no such thing as "overly moralistic" for you (when you're on your high horse). 

[OlgaH]

Yes, yes, I know there's no such thing as "overly moralistic" for you (when you're on your high horse).  

Blues Fairy, you have labeled me in different ways during our "debates" and "on your high horse" is not a new   I already have said feel free to continue, you are just an impersonal poster as you have said and you have the same attitude towards other people here.  

Of course you perceive my understanding of morals and ethics as "overly moralistic" and nothing surprising about it. May be because there is some of your lack of understanding of elementary morals and ethics when even your "advice" and "opinions" contain personal insults

Sure, you will perceive my words as "overly moralistic", but it is OK with me  

[Blues Fairy]

May be because there is some of your lack of understanding of elementary morals and ethics

"On a high horse" is not a label, Olga, it's an expression describing a self-righteous attitude, such as using judgmental moralizing statements (labels) similar to the one quoted above. 

[OlgaH]

"On a high horse" is not a label, Olga, it's an expression describing a self-righteous attitude, such as using judgmental moralizing statements (labels) similar to the one quoted above.  

That's fine.
While you reserve your rights to call people "idiots", "handicapped", "liberal crowd with white rhinos" and so on because of a difference in opinions I don't expect from you you to understand what I'm talking about  

[Gator]

I've never had a Russian woman I met online ask me if I was going to meet (or if I was currently meeting with) other women. The subject has just never come up, so unless you're dealing with someone really insecure or possessive, I think the principal argument here is a non issue.

Again our experiences differ.  All of this reminds me of the parable about blind men describing an elephant.  Collectively as members of RWD we may get the full picture.

I estimate 50% asked me.  Why me and not you?  My guess is that our meetings differed as well as the length of our correspondence.  I would typically plan to spend 1-4 days with a woman in her city and not meet another woman while in her city.  So maybe she wanted to know a lot more before committing so much of her time (take off from work, etc.).

One week I tried the meeting with many for coffee and cake routine via a full-service agency.  Not one woman asked.  They knew.

I passed on meeting these two.

So would I.  Sounds too controlling. 

I have had a few women during a first meeting (either a date or at a club) ask me if I was married or with a serious girlfriend. Apparently if I did it wouldn't be a problem.

They maybe perceived you as a player and wanted to play?

I don't see dating as much different in Russia than anywhere else.

Contrary to what I/O and I observed?  Are your observations primarily made with Moscow women who are indeed more like Big City AW? 

From what I've seen there are more sponsor type relationships....

For certain "more."  I would say "far more" than in the US.

There are definitely women on bridal sites that are lining up meetings with several foreign men, still dating back home or even still married. I know of a few right now that are trying to plan romantic trips with me (unsuccessfully, I'm too busy) while hooking up meetings (probably 'exclusive' ones) with guys that are getting ready to get on that plane. Maybe some of you out there?

I am not a hypocrite so if this were true it was none of my business unless I became seriously interested after meeting her.

[Misha]

even in normal relationships a man spends more money on a woman than back in the US (more gifts, more expensive gifts and going dutch is rare)

Not my experience, but the last time I brought this up in another forum I was portrayed as living on the street with my wife ready to leave at any second  But, for the record, I will point out that my wife and I celebrated our third wedding anniversary last month and she isn't packing her bags just yet 

[OlgaH]

my wife and I celebrated our third wedding anniversary last month

Misha,
Congratulations to both of you, all the best and many more happy years together!

[Misha]

Misha,
Congratulations to both of you, all the best and many more happy years together!

Спасибо большое!