Moscow Night Life

[Admin]

All I can say is that's not what the ladies tell me.  At Night Flight, both the men and the women are treated as "customers" and are protected from disruptive factors as such.  They both pay a cover charge to enter.  The club has some of the best security in Moscow which keeps the undesirables away.  There are enough police standing outside to scare away any mafia hood trying to shake someone down.

Frankly, I think it would be pretty easy for a girl, operating in a limited access club like Night Flight to do so without drawing too much attention on herself from the criminal element.     

Many had sons or daughters and used their basically free weekends to spend time with them.  Of course they probably wouldn't want their daughters to follow the same career choice they have made.  So you think they're better off sitting in some office or shop making $400-$500 per week and having to screw their lecherous boss for fee every two weeks to collect their paycheck? 

shakespear,

I lived in Asia for some time, and in western Europe, and spent a BUNCH of time in Ukraine. It has been a while since I spent substantial time there, but while there I was doing business with some VERY highly placed businessmen, and got to know a few of the Deputy Ministers pretty well. I have also had occasion to call upon the security officer of the US Embassy and his staff. And finally, a close friend and colleague has family members who are very highly placed in Kyiv's Militsia. The topic of organized crime in Kyiv, and elsewhere in the FSU, is among the many topics we have had late into the evening on numerous occasions.

I have at least two women who became close friends who were among the elite prostitutes in Kyiv. They are friends, and we've talked at length about numerous topics. One of them had a young pre-teen daughter. There was never a hint of a doubt that they were, for all intents and purposes, 'owned' by their 'pimps.' What they tell you and what they really think and do are, for obvious reasons, not always in synch.

What you might learn if you really get to know them, as people and as friends, is that beatings are commonplace - even of the most high-end prostitutes - though careful beatings so as to not damage their income-producing potential. Drug use, though not to the point of addiction - lest they be relegated to the street-walker rank, is rampant - with all the risks it entails. Indoctrination into prostitution is not something to wish on anyone. It can be, and often is, quite brutal and serves to make a point as much as to initiate. Dangerous sexual behavior is common and can be catastrophic. Expected/demanded sexual escapades with groups are the norm. And the list goes on.

The question you close with assumes facts not in evidence. While I would agree that pressure for office sex is greater in the FSU than in the West, it is far from a certainty, and things are changing more and more to diminish/remove that pressure from the workplace. I would also submit that your argument seems to basically state that any woman who might earn more from prostitution than another vocation ought to consider it for the income potential. That perspective seems bereft of any consideration for anything other than money, and there are plenty of people (even women) who value morality, spirituality, integrity, and other ideals at least as much (and often times much more) than mere money.

- Dan

PS - my "even women" comment above was intended to be sarcastic. Don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.

[IAmZon]

It is hard for most AM - anybody from the US - to wrap their heads around the great compromises that are common place for many. It is a matter of culture; it is a matter of reality. What may appear anathema to one is acceptable to another.

Third world countries can be very cruel and harsh.

For me, I have seen things that were "bad" end well; and thing that began as "good" bring pain.

[Admin]

It is hard for most AM - anybody from the US - to wrap their heads around the great compromises that are common place for many. It is a matter of culture; it is a matter of reality. What may appear anathema to one is acceptable to another.

Third world countries can be very cruel and harsh.

For me, I have seen things that were "bad" end well; and the opposite as well.

And so you look for the common denominator. Those things that are universal across cultures and religions. I know of one.

The one universal I have found that is true of friends and colleagues in America, India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Kuwait, Germany and Ukraine (among others) is - everyone wants a better life for their children than the one they had for themselves.

Now, if you accept that, extrapolate it to the question I posed shakespear. That a woman would not want her daughter to follow in her vocation choice to a life in prostitution speaks VOLUMES to those who would hear it.

To those whose focus is more self-absorbed, it matters not. They will rationalize it away no matter the logic of the argument offered.

- Dan

[BC]

I think you are seeing what you want to see.

Too many shades of grey Dan.

When you sit at a cafe in A'dam, Frankfurt, Hamburg, and many other places and watch the 'girls' go to their working places, doing a little shopping on their way it's hard to imagine a pimp being involved at all.  The rent for their little rooms is probably a bit pricey as is getting by doormen at clubs, or hotels.  In some countries even the best hotels, talking Hilton and Ritz will 'host' a couple of young beauties that spend most of their time sunning at the pool.  Condoms are in the mini bar and the Concierge will be happy to set things up with management consent.

CODB.. cost of doing business..

Not to say that there are no victims in the adult entertainment business, but all in all Shakespeare's remarks are probably not that far off the mark, caveat - yes someone else is surely cashing in but probably in a manner that is not a crime.

Now if your baseline is a girl standing on the street somewhere in the US, you're probably right..  after all the US is one of very few countries where prostitution is illegal.  In most countries that allow prostitution pimping is illegal. Enforcement though is another matter.. wherever there is money there will always be abuse.

[shakespear]

I have at least two women who became close friends who were among the elite prostitutes in Kyiv. They are friends, and we've talked at length about numerous topics. One of them had a young pre-teen daughter. There was never a hint of a doubt that they were, for all intents and purposes, 'owned' by their 'pimps.' What they tell you and what they really think and do are, for obvious reasons, not always in synch.  

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I'm just not hearing what your saying from the ladies at Night Flight.  I'm good friends with the owners and managers of the establishments.  I hang around them in the club.  Like them, the girls know I'm there for looking, Cuban cigar smoking and Cognac drinking and not buying of flesh.  I'm always good to buy a girl a drink on a slow evening and I learn quite a bit about her during our chats.  When the question comes to pimps or working for some mafia man, they look at me like I've called them some evil name.  They remind me in no uncertain terms they're not train station prostitutes or line-up girls.

Many of the girls are what I call "part-time prostitutes".  They're students who come in 2-3 times a month looking to augment their student stipend or meager money from home.  Or they're shop girls who do the same thing to being in a little extra cash for the family.    

The clientele at Night Flight is pretty respectable so most all of the risks of violence are minimized.  If a man gets violent with a girl, all she need do is tell the management at Night Flight and that man will never be allowed to enter the establishment again.  Same thing happens if a girl somehow cheats or steals from a man.  

They tell me they ALWAYS practice safe sex; both oral and straight sex.  Most won't do anal but those that do almost double the fee and insist on safe sex.  Again, I have no real personal experience in this, (expect one time back in 2000 and we certainly practiced safe sex - repeatedly  ) but that is what the girls tell me.        

I would also submit that your argument seems to basically state that any woman who might earn more from prostitution than another vocation ought to consider it for the income potential. That perspective seems bereft of any consideration for anything other than money, and there are plenty of people (even women) who value morality, spirituality, integrity, and other ideals at least as much (and often times much more) than mere money.

Tough to maintain those "high morals" when your children and/or parents haven't eaten in 3 days and the heating has been turned off during the Russian winter.  Who is to judge any woman for making the decisions to earn money as a prostitute or sleep with her boss in order to guarantee receiving a salary?  Without pointing fingers at any specific lady, I think at least a few of the members of this forum who are married to RW might be surprised to learn how their own wives handled this situation during the horrible years after the fall of the Soviet Union (1991-2002).    

[OlgaH]

  The ladies don't have "pimps".  The don't work for the nightclub.  They keep all the money they make and are free to decide who they'll go home with and whom they refuse to do business with.  Most have new apartments, drive nice cars and have dachas in the countryside.  All have fantastic wardrobes of clothes.

Do you really believe in what you have written?    No payments to "pimps", to night clubs (for their working place) and for protection? Do you know they actually can lose everything they have also very fast.

All I can say is that's not what the ladies tell me.  

I hope you don't expect they will tell you the exact sum what they pay and names whom they pay 

I guess you know such name as Peter Listerman, a famous “entertainer” in Russian model business. Probably you even have met him personally.  His honesty about his business (openly on TV) really amazed me. Does anybody care what he is doing? Nope, because he is very popular "elite p" in oligarch circle. 

[Sculpto]

To be honest Dan, IMHO, the "consequences" of prostitution; with the exception of human slave trafficking, are rather self imposed.  I have no experience with prostitution at the lower levels of the hierarchy so can't comment either way on that activity. 

But to answer you question directly, yes I've seen it at Night Flight and to some extent at the old Boar House (now called Hot Dogs).  The ladies are there because the freely choose to parlay their beauty and intelligence into an income that would be impossible for them to achieve working a normal job.  Most of these girls make between $50,000 and $100,000 tax free per year; not bad for even expensive Moscow don't 'cha think?  They don't have "pimps".  They keep all the money they make and are free to decide who they'll go home with and whom they refuse to do business with.  Most have new apartments, drive nice cars and have dachas in the countryside.  All have fantastic wardrobes of clothes.  The majority of the girls I spoke with enjoy the interaction and socializing with men who are highly successful in business, well educated and with very few exceptions, treat them with respect.  We're talking about men who can afford to pay between $400 - $600 per night.   

At Night Flight, prostitution is truly a "victimless crime". 

Shakespere.. if you believe what you wrote there you are VERY naive. 

Nightflight IS the pimp.  You think they work there for free?  You think they don't have to provide "services" to managers and some staff?  You think they don't pay off cops that know about their work?  You think its nice being a hooker?  Just a nice easy way to make big bucks? 

I am not moralizing here.  I am just saying your ideas are full of fantasy.  The happy hooker is a rare exception.  The girls you have encountered are PROFESSIONALS so they do it with a smile.  But, what goes on in the backroom is a lot more sordid than you realize.

You really think girls simply decide they are going to be a hooker?  There is almost always someone in the background that pushed them into it.  Pimps are not always men either.  And then there is the question of drug addiction.  Even high end hookers are often substance abusers of one sort or another. 

Get real man.  Its not glamorous.

[Sculpto]

What Dan says is in 99% of the cases 100% true.  I have known many women in the sex industry and there is almost always someone behind them pushing it.  

A place like NightFlight avoids some of the worst elements by organizing the way they do, and, they stay clear of being an actual bordello which avoids additional hassles with police and organized crime.  But, to think that all those girls are thrilled to be working there is just simply not correct.  They do it because, in most cases, someone has forced them into it, or, desperation, or greed.  Often, once they start they can't go back to a "straight" life.  Some of them do learn to enjoy the attention and some of them may even be sex addicts, but, on the whole, its all pretty much a lot of lost souls swimming in spooge.

shakespear,

I lived in Asia for some time, and in western Europe, and spent a BUNCH of time in Ukraine. It has been a while since I spent substantial time there, but while there I was doing business with some VERY highly placed businessmen, and got to know a few of the Deputy Ministers pretty well. I have also had occasion to call upon the security officer of the US Embassy and his staff. And finally, a close friend and colleague has family members who are very highly placed in Kyiv's Militsia. The topic of organized crime in Kyiv, and elsewhere in the FSU, is among the many topics we have had late into the evening on numerous occasions.

I have at least two women who became close friends who were among the elite prostitutes in Kyiv. They are friends, and we've talked at length about numerous topics. One of them had a young pre-teen daughter. There was never a hint of a doubt that they were, for all intents and purposes, 'owned' by their 'pimps.' What they tell you and what they really think and do are, for obvious reasons, not always in synch.

What you might learn if you really get to know them, as people and as friends, is that beatings are commonplace - even of the most high-end prostitutes - though careful beatings so as to not damage their income-producing potential. Drug use, though not to the point of addiction - lest they be relegated to the street-walker rank, is rampant - with all the risks it entails. Indoctrination into prostitution is not something to wish on anyone. It can be, and often is, quite brutal and serves to make a point as much as to initiate. Dangerous sexual behavior is common and can be catastrophic. Expected/demanded sexual escapades with groups are the norm. And the list goes on.

The question you close with assumes facts not in evidence. While I would agree that pressure for office sex is greater in the FSU than in the West, it is far from a certainty, and things are changing more and more to diminish/remove that pressure from the workplace. I would also submit that your argument seems to basically state that any woman who might earn more from prostitution than another vocation ought to consider it for the income potential. That perspective seems bereft of any consideration for anything other than money, and there are plenty of people (even women) who value morality, spirituality, integrity, and other ideals at least as much (and often times much more) than mere money.

- Dan

PS - my "even women" comment above was intended to be sarcastic. Don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.

[Sculpto]

It is hard for most AM - anybody from the US - to wrap their heads around the great compromises that are common place for many. It is a matter of culture; it is a matter of reality. What may appear anathema to one is acceptable to another.

Third world countries can be very cruel and harsh.

For me, I have seen things that were "bad" end well; and the opposite as well.

Ricardo you are correct as well.  My critique is not morally based.  For me it is not a question of right and wrong, but, facing reality and the consequences when someone goes down that path. 

One "proof" can be seen in Thailand.  It doesn't take much effort to discover there are an enormous number of western men that have married prostitutes in that country.  The golden egg for a Thai prostitute is a western man that "saves" them from such a life.  Its not for me, nor I suspect for most here, but there are thousands of men who have found their happiness that way.  But, the main point is.. as soon as those girls have a chance to get out of the "life" they do.

I do however dispute the use of the word "acceptable".  I think resolved to reality is a more apt description.  Most young women who have crossed that line are not about to go and tell their parents about it.  They keep it a secret for a reason.  Care to consider what that reason is?

[Mir]

A Ukrainian woman told me that sexual relations between university students and male teachers are common and accepted (by the teacher's family).
She said that for many girls a teacher is the first lover that they have.

[OlgaH]

A Ukrainian woman told me that sexual relations between university students and male teachers are common and accepted (by the teacher's family).
She said that for many girls a teacher is the first lover that they have.

Mir, you must be kidding

[Phil dAmore]

She said that for many girls a teacher is the first lover that they have.

Some of my adult English students from St. Petersburg told me pretty much the same thing, so there is likely something to it.

[OlgaH]

Some of my former adult English students from St. Petersburg told me pretty much the same thing, so there is likely something to it.

Poor male teachers... when they have time to work if they are first lovers for many girls 

[Gator]

My wife's best friend, an intelligent women, had an affair with her 60-yo professor when she was 18.  She went voluntarily during a phase of her self-discovery.  BTW, it was short-lived, as they all are.

What do the women professors get?

[shakespear]

Nightflight IS the pimp.  You think they work there for free?  You think they don't have to provide "services" to managers and some staff?  You think they don't pay off cops that know about their work?  You think its nice being a hooker?  Just a nice easy way to make big bucks?    

First, I assume you've never actually been to Night Flight so all of your observations are pure speculation, right?

Anyway, in the macro sense, you're somewhat accurate.  More exactly, Night Flight provides a safe venue where high-class escorts and businessmen can meet.  BOTH the men and the women are customers of the establishment and are treated exactly the same.  They all pay the same cover charge and pay the same price for food and drinks.  The establishment DOES NOT take a percentage of the girls fee.  They make their money by selling drinks, food and the cover charge for entrance. 

You couldn't be more wrong about providing "services" to managers and staff.  I can assure you that this just doesn't happen.  And they do have "friends" at the local police station; but don't pay money for protection directly per se.  Don't want to say anything more about this as it might be revealing information that was told to me in confidence.   

I can tell you that at "Hot Dogs" (formerly called The Boar House) police protection is provided by a different police station.  At Hot Dog's, the police collect a fee from every girl that enters the nightclub.  I was told that as of this summer, the fee was 1000pyb.  The girls simply pass on this cost to their customers. 

You really think girls simply decide they are going to be a hooker? 

Pretty much.  I think they make a decision based on the income potential verses all the negative factors.

[shakespear]

My wife's best friend, an intelligent women, had an affair with her 60-yo professor when she was 18.  She went voluntarily during a phase of her self-discovery.  BTW, it was short-lived, as they all are.

Want to learn something about life in post communist Russia?  If you wife is over 35 years old, ask she if she knows of anyone who was forced to have sex with her boss in order for him to agree to pay her the wages she had earned.  You usually get two answers to this question; the first and most common would be an affirmative answer followed with tales of poor unfortunate friends or acquaintances who were victimized by by such lecherous slime.  The second, less common answer would be an avoidance of the question followed by a comment that it was a horrible time and she doesn't want to talk about it.  That answer should give you pause to think.       

[OlgaH]

My wife's best friend, an intelligent women, had an affair with her 60-yo professor when she was 18.  She went voluntarily during a phase of her self-discovery.  BTW, it was short-lived, as they all are.

Yeah, I guess the affair came to the end when she passed her exams 

[KenC]

Yeah, I guess the affair came to the end when she passed her exams 

Good point Olga.  Lena had told me stories of Professors that had regular weekend parties where they would just about have their choice of student "companionship."  The overload of attendance from the many marginal female students was such that the Prof invited a host of buddies to help him with his dilemma.

The practice seems to be open and accepted in the FSU.  But let me point out the rash of recent teacher/student sexual activities that have been prosecuted here in the USA.  Mostly highschool teachers and students, but both men and women teachers.  There is even one local highschool here in San Diego (Helix High) that has had 3 or 4 teachers/administrators found guilty in the last few years.
KenC

[Sculpto]

You are simply naive if you think that is the case.  FWIW.. I went in to NightFlight having heard of it and stumbled upon it.. I did not realize what it was before I went in, but, it took about one drink to figure it out at which point I left.  Its not much different a vibe than Adelitas in TJ or Soi Cowboy in Bangkok.  A whore house is a whore house and no matter how you want to spin it or what fantasy you want to believe even if you are not known as a paying customer for hookers they are not going to tell you the truth because you are POTENTIAL paying customer.  Hookers are masters of th art of deception and often quite good saleswomen. 

First, I assume you've never actually been to Night Flight so all of your observations are pure speculation, right?

Anyway, in the macro sense, you're somewhat accurate.  More exactly, Night Flight provides a safe venue where high-class escorts and businessmen can meet.  BOTH the men and the women are customers of the establishment and are treated exactly the same.  They all pay the same cover charge and pay the same price for food and drinks.  The establishment DOES NOT take a percentage of the girls fee.  They make their money by selling drinks, food and the cover charge for entrance. 

You couldn't be more wrong about providing "services" to managers and staff.  I can assure you that this just doesn't happen.  And they do have "friends" at the local police station; but don't pay money for protection directly per se.  Don't want to say anything more about this as it might be revealing information that was told to me in confidence.   

I can tell you that at "Hot Dogs" (formerly called The Boar House) police protection is provided by a different police station.  At Hot Dog's, the police collect a fee from every girl that enters the nightclub.  I was told that as of this summer, the fee was 1000pyb.  The girls simply pass on this cost to their customers. 

Pretty much.  I think they make a decision based on the income potential verses all the negative factors.

[Sculpto]

I have heard of student teacher relationships from many different FSUWs so would tend to believe this is very common. 

At the art school I attended it was also common.. pretty much all male faculty and every one of them that was single had a student GF.. several resulted in marriages.  Even today 20+ years later it is still going on and said male faculty has been exceptionally resistant to adding female faculty.  Most female faculty that have been hired in the last 20+ years didn't stick around for obvious reasons.

[shakespear]

You are simply naive if you think that is the case. 

Well, we'll just have to politely agree to disagree.  I KNOW EXACTLY how management runs the place.  There is just no way possible you're going to convince me that what I know as absolute fact about this establishment is not true. 

[Sculpto]

Well, we'll just have to politely agree to disagree.  I KNOW EXACTLY how management runs the place.  There is just no way possible you're going to convince me that what I know as absolute fact about this establishment is not true. 

Hahaha!  More facts.  Whatever dude.. think what you want.  Bottom line, prostitution is an inherently exploitive exchange, on both ends of the transaction.  You either accept it for what it is or you don't, but, to glamorize it is foolish.

[IAmZon]

Night life in Moscow, or St. Pete for that matter ...  Let's please go back to the subject of "fair and square" night life.  Not paid for, bribed, boughten, organized crime affected female companionship.

Fellas, I only have a couple of years left in me:) 

What kind of music is played.  The common dance.  Hours of operation; etc..   

I will be father down south for Summer (our winter) in Argentina.  After which, I am F I N A L LY planning a trip to Ukraine and Russia. 

[Shadow]

All I can say is that's not what the ladies tell me.  At Night Flight, both the men and the women are treated as "customers" and are protected from disruptive factors as such.  They both pay a cover charge to enter.  The club has some of the best security in Moscow which keeps the undesirables away.  There are enough police standing outside to scare away any mafia hood trying to shake someone down.

Why do you think the militia are protecting the place so well ?

Anyway, in the macro sense, you're somewhat accurate.  More exactly, Night Flight provides a safe venue where high-class escorts and businessmen can meet.  BOTH the men and the women are customers of the establishment and are treated exactly the same.  They all pay the same cover charge and pay the same price for food and drinks.  The establishment DOES NOT take a percentage of the girls fee.  They make their money by selling drinks, food and the cover charge for entrance.

You couldn't be more wrong about providing "services" to managers and staff.  I can assure you that this just doesn't happen.  And they do have "friends" at the local police station; but don't pay money for protection directly per se.  Don't want to say anything more about this as it might be revealing information that was told to me in confidence.  

Yeah, they are under direct protection of a higher authority as the local mafia boss. Please reveal all you know rather than blowing smoke here.
Things in Russia are not kept as secret but are common knowledge.

Lets make one thing clear. The story that any woman who works in prostitution is an independent woman who has no obligations to anyone and does not need to pay money to keep her working place is a myth. This myth is kept only by those people who have a business interest in keeping it alive.

Do you stand by your story?

[IAmZon]

I tried   On with the expose' on prostitution.