Dynamics of VM vs VO

[OlgaH]

A truly good and secure woman will not give a rats ass whether the man is seeing other women or not.  

as a truly good and secure man will not be afraid to be dropped after telling the truth

But you know full well that by telling the women, that a large majority of them will drop the guy instantly.  

[Gator]

So you had a good "first date" and now you're ready to "go steady"?  I can't believe that anyone really thinks such sophomoric high school dating tactics are effective in selecting a wife in the FSU.  Grow up people!   

Good first date?  How about fantastic! 

We could be talking apples and oranges.  I endeavored to make my first dates 2-4 days in length, not dinner and chit chat at a club.  I deemed this best for me.  Other men will differ.

[GQBlues]

If a man is the hunter. Many dont know the prey they are hunting. They have the clothes, guns, maps, ect. But know nothing about the prey. They havent even thought about it. When the guy choose #3. The last thing in his mind was her rejecting him because of his VM trip.

LOL. Hunter and prey. I'm sorry but that is just too hysterical. Are men supposed to carry a big club during their first visit so they can boink the first woman on top of the head they develop some sort of fondness with? LOL.

Adam Duritz sang: "round here - we all talk like lions, but we sacrifice like lambs"

The only time an interested woman removes herself from the circle after meeting because somehow she found out you're meeting other women is when you either lied or deceived her into believing you're meeting only her during your visit. That has nothing whatsoever to do with any ills you seem to be associating with WMVM.

That scenario is likely more like WOVO with fingers crossed and a forked tongue.

[OlgaH]

Like I pointed out before, women from the FSU are used to competing for the attention of quality men.

Actually it depends on a woman.

"Quality men" is a loose concept. Everyone has his/her own idea regarding "quality men" or "quality women"

  

Think about how impressed she'll be when she figures out you SELECTED her as the lady you most wanted to spend time with after meeting with several different women.  

I was impressed several times and all that "quality men" (I bet they considered themselves to be "quality") were sent "into the garden".  

[Misha]

How so?

Fourteen years ago when I first started meeting women from the FSU, the concept of "sex tourism" was unheard of and the idea that men would want to marry a woman from Russia to make her a sex slave was not something you heard. Now, every grandmother, mother, neighbor, second-cousin twice removed will warn a woman of the dangers of dating a foreigner 

[Ludmila]

 

IMO, VO format calls for certain, very profound grounds ( the method we used, proved 100% success with us).

As a result of the  HOMEWORK DONE IN AN UTMOST DILIGENT WAY!!!!! he/she is supposed to be 99.99% sure that that he/she  he/SHE  HAS CORRESPONDED WITH FOR 2-3 months, (with at least weekly  regular calls-- a must--, and snail mail letters for backing up, too ) :

1. actually lives at the address she/HE  provided.
2.  prvided  info about who else ( parents, kids) lives at same address.
3. the phone pertaining to that ( home !)address is always available without restriction, at any time of the day/ night for  him/ her to call.

4 where he/she works.

5  their respective area of expertise.

6. that he/  she can be found at other places ( friend's, parents' place any time he/ she wants).

7 their respective interests, hobbies ( you discussed everything ad nauseum on the phone, in emails) and names of  her/his friends ( if she says she's at  her friend's Irina place at 11 pm, and he wishes to call there for a 2 min friendly call and chat with her -- and possibly say hi to the friend--  she is supposed to be there).

My future husband and I knew what each of us was doing at almost any given hour of day/ night. We didn't abuse each other's trust,but we were welcome to call ANY TIME). We were committed very soon upon "meeting", prior to the visit.
 

8. He  does not meet a single regular once a week call. She is always at home  at the agreed time waiting for his call.

9. readiness to meet within 2 months after this intensive "rapprochment :-) " Both are supposed to demonstrate  A VERY HIGH MOTIVATION  for a most serios committed relationship leading to marriage.

10.  Both realize that all the above make each other respectful of each other's effort.

11. Both  realize that  after you agree you like each other's physical looks ,you would like to demonstrate  your image ( intellectual, spiritual, human).

12. Both  realize, that although nothing is guaranteed, you will hate to lose each other. ( you will know when you begin to feel it).

 Now, after HOMEWORK LIKE THAT,  to ask whether he was visiting other ladies was unnecessary and almost absurd .  

 As a lady pretty sure of herself, who believes she's worth her salt,

I support Olga's logics:

( granted, he admited from day one  he liked  your physical image and appearance and  has been showing undevided interest for a continious definate period of time before the visit-- VO)  a SECURE  woman  would never ever waist  her time,  emotional and intellectual resource on the man who  is not sure he is able to spot   and separate  her from   other ladies, focus only on her and visit only her .

 You 've read  the description of one  of numerous possible approaches to take WOVO venue . Hope, it will provide some info.

[Ade]

SJ,
So you believe that the sexual mores of Russians are the same as American or British?
KenC

From what I've experienced with my wife and heard of from her friends there's little difference on average from Western Europe. Of course, you will find some deviations among Western European countries, some being less sexually repressed than others on average; Scandinavia tends to be among the less repressed IMO but we are talking shades of grey not black and white differences between most countries.

What I do think is that some guys have only been exposed to the more, um, shall we say, "liberal" side of the FSU, and from that have drawn conclusions that all FSUW will sleep with almost anyone at any time. You can find a subset of women in any Western Europe like that too. But that is ignoring the women that have more demanding standards and will only share their bed with a select few.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not moralizing and being judgemental here; if they want to do it, they are adults and that's fine by me. However, assuming that all or even the majority of FSUW are like this is wrong.

FWIW, some of us men have more demanding standards too.

[RussianWind]

But if it's an otherwise perfect guy, and very interested in you - would you brush him of just because he's checking out other girls? 

If he is perfect, it is fine. If this perfect guy don't fully pays his perfect attention to me, is interested in flirting with somebody else, our relatioship is not going to be perfect, thus I am not interested in spending my time to meet him. He will use his perfect time more productively with someone else.

 

She is absolutely correct in that it is the insecure women who are so worried about whether the man might be seeing other women.

A truly good and secure woman will not give a rats ass whether the man is seeing other women or not.  They will know that they are the best there is to be had and want the man to be able to compare to verify that fact.

This is crap. Yes, these women do not care if you meet other women... yet they do not care of you at all  Why do you like meeting people who don't give a damp about you?

Like I pointed out before, women from the FSU are used to competing for the attention of quality men.

 

The most funny line on this forum. Some women are desperate but I didn't know they were so desperate 

[I/O]

We really need to focus on the last 3 years.  Dating scene is very different now than 10 or even 5 years ago.  Stories form long ago are nice to hear but out dated.

Someone just had to go there didn't they.

How so?

Dan, The game HAS CHANGED and it was abundantly obvious to me during July of this year. Economics and opportunity, there is a much greater parity now. I can't speak for Ukraine because it is quite some time since I have been there but it is evident everywhere in Russia. A certain air of confidence and self belief if you like. If guys believe economics and opportunity never played a part in the equation past or present, they are tugging themselves.

Plenty of us been-there-done-that guys kid ourselves we could "do the deed" if necessary now. Frankly, I think a handful of us would survive and many would have our butts handed to us quicker than we can spit. Many RW are much more forthright with their requirements list now. You don't fit, on your bike sunshine and she's checkin' out the next prospect. Doesn't mean we couldn't learn our craft again, it simply means we can't rely on our memory of how it was to develop an accurate perception of how it is. I've seen, for my taste, just a tad too much lecturing (here and in other places) on dating dynamics recently from the "older" brigade who IMO would be better to stick with advising on holding a marriage together which is where their up to date experience perhaps lies.

It is only my take on things, but I like to kid myself it is fairly objective as I have no vested interest one way or another now. I am happily (more so every day) married yet close enough by virtue of an age gap marriage to the dating set in Russia when there to take some notice. My thoughts on this subject are it is unwise to think because we once knew, we now know.

[Shadow]

I do not see a reason to debate VM or VO as ' hunting tactic'.
Mainly its guys defending them selves and their own ideas and it has very little to do with the chances of meeting the perfect partner.

My simple advise to men who consider dating in the FSU is: do as you are used to.
If you have no problem dating multiple women at home, go VM. If you are the type who wishes to concentrate on one woman at a time, go VO.
For both types it is valid that if they try to change their method outside known territory, it will contribute to negative feelings. If a VM guy does not manage his VO prospect, he will say its because of the method. If a VO guy does not manage on the VM trip, its again the method.

What fails or not fails is not the method used. Not many men will marry their first date at home, but somehow a majority seems to expect just that when going to the FSU.
On the other side, men tend to be treating things too casual and go for a sightseeing with some (hopeful) extras.

Regardless of how many women you are going to meet or see, what should be done is to have as much personal in-depth contact as possible. Only when you get to know the person, which can not be done over the internet or by a 15-minute coffee, you will be able to decide if he/she is a potential partner.
If you do not allow yourself time to get to know the person or persons you are meeting, you trip has beend wasted. If you get to know the person or persons, the trip is a success, regardless if it leads to a relationship or not.

[RussianWind]

If a VM guy does not manage his VO prospect, he will say its because of the method. If a VO guy does not manage on the VM trip, its again the method.

And when they can't manage both, they go to a dating agency 

[Gator]

The game HAS CHANGED and it was abundantly obvious to me during July of this year. Economics and opportunity, there is a much greater parity now. ....A certain air of confidence and self belief if you like. If guys believe economics and opportunity never played a part in the equation past or present, they are tugging themselves.

It sounds like the candy store is still open, yet the shelves are not nearly as full.  And some brands are sold out if not discontinued.

This parity is good.  GCGs perhaps are eliminated.  Romantic feelings become paramount.  

I still contend that there are many RW who will still consider marriage to the right foreigner because of one or more of the following:


1.  They have seen the Western world and prefer it (the situation of one of my wife's friends in Moscow).
2.  They have children and look for a husband who is more receptive to another man's kids.
3.  They had bad experiences with RM and heard the grass could be greener.
4.  They are becoming an empty nester and would like to start a brand new life.
5.  They are very intelligent and believe long-term opportunities for their talents are greater in the West.

These are solid reasons vs. being desperately poor.  

But wait.  There is no need for newbies to be concerned.  I just remember - the marriage agencies say that RW outnumber RM 5::1.  So the top 20% of women will go to local RM.  That still leaves 80% of the women as unable to find a man. Where is the tongue-in cheek smiley?  For newbies, the 5::1 ratio is a myth.
 
 

[SMS60]

Her feelings? You are not responsible for her feelings, she is. Your are responsible for your feelings and being honest with her.

Let's be real here, would you date this way in your home town? You're interested in a lady and ask to have dinner with her. She says yes but informs you she is going on vacation tomorrow for six weeks and wants schedule it sometime after she returns. You agree, get her number, promise to stay in touch with a few phone calls or emails in the interm and say ciao. Are you really going to tell me that you wouldn't ask another women out until you've had that first date with the vacation lady? Absurd!

JR

I agree with the feelings part. 

Of course you would not date like that on a local level. But the unspoken word is not marriage on the local level. Maybe down the road.

I think when you start looking abroad it is usually framed with marriage as the unspoken word. So I think that changes things a little.

PS. you seem a little combative since you arrived home from your trip 

[RussianWind]

I still contend that there are many RW who will still consider marriage to the right foreigner because of one or more of the following:

6. I was always attracted to other nations and absolutely don't care where to live with the right partner - in a western country, in Russia or in the so called "third world". We make our lives bad or good themselves.

[Bored1]

Think about how impressed she'll be when she figures out you SELECTED her as the lady you most wanted to spend time with after meeting with several different women. 

I agree with this - just think how she will feel. 

If it was I then I SELECT you as history the moment I know of it if you claim to like me so much you will not want to see other but do.

The problem with selection is it is 2 way and some mans still write as if we will just be happy selected.  You write as though this is 1995 not 2009 when thing much different.

I have never been on agency and never will.  I have never meet a mans on the interent for purposes of dating or marriage but I do not care if people do it or not as it is their decision.

Foreign mans are not so rare in Moscow and other bits of Russia today and many are here for a long time with work.  I have dated a few such mans at different times but I did so not because they are foreign mans, not for they offer me something I cannot get here.  I not see them because I want a different passport or money or childrens but because I thought they attractive like some Russian mans.

I only even dated them after I find they foreigns when I know they work at Moscow.  If they not then I would not have done so as to try to date somebody serious cannot be fitted into a time frame for decisions to be made with a good chance of success of anything past physcial attraction.

I find it still now after many month of reading this forum very strange that mans will come to Russia for a womans.  I understand to come with work and fall in love but to come for a womans alone seem quite quite strange.  Why not UK or Argentina or Spain or Costa Rica?

Why chose to search for a RW at all?  What is the moivator behind such a thought?

A womans so desperate to leave Russia?  A womans who will have childrens or clean and cook and who are always pretty?  This is the basis of attraction for RW by WM in their initial thought process?

Also to see how some mans write it seem that they expect a RW to be happy to be SELECTED.

I will ask the AM where they select from?  Agency?  How many womans are on all agencies?  50,000?  More?  Of these how many marry WM?  All 50,000?  Or 10,000? or 100? or 10?  If for example there are 50,000 RW and 50,000 WM then there would be no RW left very fast if they are just happy to be SELECTED.

If majority of the RW are genuine in the want for a WM then the majority will be married fast after being SELECTED.  If it is minority which I suspect are genuine then I think the chance of finding a genuine woman from agency is small.  Agency is a BUSINESS about making MONEY and not care if anyone marry anyone or not.

As I say before if a WM is so intent on finding RW then our social chat sites are much better for such a thing and are completely free to join from start.

Agency will want many pretty womans to make MONEY for a BUSINESS.  Most RW a mans will meet through agency will have NO interest in marrying a foreign mans for what I can see from many month of reading many thread about agency and the kind of RW and trips the mans make.

This is my neutral opinion as a RW who is not on agency and never will be so.  For me it is no consequence if a WM use agency or not as it seem so many after reading all of this forum for many month will still continue to use agency and not site like vkontake or similar which is full of regular RW who are not there to make money for business willingly or not.

I do not say that there are no genuine RW looking for husband from agency but I do suspect from what I read in the forum that many are not at all interested in marry to a foreign mans.

How many RW SELECTED from agency actually marry foreign mans even after being SELECTED?

I am quite centain many RW on agency will be quite happy to meet mans knowing they are seeing other RW also for the simple fact they really have no intentions of marriage at all anyway.

[Jooky]

Why not UK or Argentina or Spain or Costa Rica?

There are more pretty young women in Russia. That's all. 

[KenC]

IMO, VO format calls for certain, very profound grounds ( the method we used, proved 100% success with us).

As a result of the  HOMEWORK DONE IN AN UTMOST DILIGENT WAY!!!!! he/she is supposed to be 99.99% sure that that he/she  he/SHE  HAS CORRESPONDED WITH FOR 2-3 months, (with at least weekly  regular calls-- a must--, and snail mail letters for backing up, too ) :

1. actually lives at the address she/HE  provided.
2.  prvided  info about who else ( parents, kids) lives at same address.
3. the phone pertaining to that ( home !)address is always available without restriction, at any time of the day/ night for  him/ her to call.

4 where he/she works.

5  their respective area of expertise.

6. that he/  she can be found at other places ( friend's, parents' place any time he/ she wants).

7 their respective interests, hobbies ( you discussed everything ad nauseum on the phone, in emails) and names of  her/his friends ( if she says she's at  her friend's Irina place at 11 pm, and he wishes to call there for a 2 min friendly call and chat with her -- and possibly say hi to the friend--  she is supposed to be there).

My future husband and I knew what each of us was doing at almost any given hour of day/ night. We didn't abuse each other's trust,but we were welcome to call ANY TIME). We were committed very soon upon "meeting", prior to the visit.
 

8. He  does not meet a single regular once a week call. She is always at home  at the agreed time waiting for his call.

9. readiness to meet within 2 months after this intensive "rapprochment :-) " Both are supposed to demonstrate  A VERY HIGH MOTIVATION  for a most serios committed relationship leading to marriage.

10.  Both realize that all the above make each other respectful of each other's effort.

11. Both  realize that  after you agree you like each other's physical looks ,you would like to demonstrate  your image ( intellectual, spiritual, human).

12. Both  realize, that although nothing is guaranteed, you will hate to lose each other. ( you will know when you begin to feel it).

 Now, after HOMEWORK LIKE THAT,  to ask whether he was visiting other ladies was unnecessary and almost absurd .  

 As a lady pretty sure of herself, who believes she's worth her salt,

I support Olga's logics:

( granted, he admited from day one  he liked  your physical image and appearance and  has been showing undevided interest for a continious definate period of time before the visit-- VO)  a SECURE  woman  would never ever waist  her time,  emotional and intellectual resource on the man who  is not sure he is able to spot   and separate  her from   other ladies, focus only on her and visit only her .

 You 've read  the description of one  of numerous possible approaches to take WOVO venue . Hope, it will provide some info.

Luda,
We did everything that you detailed here too and with the same commitment. However that commitment began to build after we met face to face and not before.  We both even discussed this in detail prior to our first meeting and both came to the conclusion that any mutual commitment prior to meeting and spending some face time would be foolish.  We agreed to keep our expectations realistic until meeting.  Maybe it was a self defense mechanism, to try to keep our emotions in check until we verified our interest in person.  Only then did we allow ourselves to get much more deeply involved emotionally.

VM does not skip any of the steps you pointed out, it only delays the beginning of the emotional commitment until you actually meet.  The romantic side of our relationship began upon meeting in real life and not before.
KenC

[KenC]

Bored1,
I can appreciate your disdain for the word "selected" in this context.  You can insert any terminology that is more comfortable for you, but we all (men & women) make a conscious decision of whom we are attracted to at some point in time.  This "selection process" is a two way street too.  What does it matter how two people meet as long as they find someone who shares their mutual interst?  I have always thought of any dating or marriage site as just a different format to introduce myself to members of the opposite sex.  No more than that.  Much like you might use the sites you recommend with one caveat as explained below.

I am quite centain many RW on agency will be quite happy to meet mans knowing they are seeing other RW also for the simple fact they really have no intentions of marriage at all anyway.

Actually, just the opposite is true IMO.  Both the women and the men involved with agency sites as the source of their introductions most often put too much emphasis on getting married and not enough time into spending a more traditional amount of time dating and getting to know each other.
KenC

[RussianWind]

Think about how impressed she'll be when she figures out you SELECTED her as the lady you most wanted to spend time with after meeting with several different women.  

ROFL... I would love to see your face when after that she says she doesn't like you.

I actually feel snobbery in your posts. Do chickens in a supermarket thank you for choosing them too?  

[shakespear]

ROFL... I would love to see your face when after that she says she doesn't like you. 

If she did, I'd consider it her loss, not mine.  Plenty of other "fish in the sea".

I actually feel snobbery in your posts. Do chickens in a supermarket thank you for choosing them too?   

I notice you're "still looking" while I've been happily married to a RW for over seven years now.  Pehaps your "attitude" explains why you're still single? 

[Caddydaddy]

A wise American women told me once, when a Mrs Right will show up, you will know! – she was right.

My penpal, Baby and now Wife told me once in a very early stage of our communication, if you want to meet Mrs Right you must be Mr Right – she was right too.

Out of my limited experience in dating FSU women I only can say, VisitMany in one turn can be disturbing, confusing, even thought you did your homework well before a visit.

A good year ago I was in Siberia to meet 2 women (agency), one was a favorit. After I met them my inner voice told me pretty quickly, something was not right, probably for me or for them, I don't know what, but hmm. Even thought the meetings were very nice, enjoyable and pleasing, oh – the Ladies also, but I knew back then it will not "end" in a marriage. Btw, I was all gentlemen and maybe I already thought too much about my other penpal… 
 
Shortly after that I met my penpal, solely. After 5 seconds (or so, hehe) seeing her for the first time in real I knew she could be the one. She needed full 6 hours to know this too, as she told me later. As we were in communication stage, we both confessed that we had other contacts, in addition, we discussed what is best to find Mrs or Mr Right, we were open, honest and grew friends.
As we decided to meet, we stated that our first get-together was only intented to get acquainted, what we truly got. And man she made sure at our second meeting that I had ended talking to other Ladies, which I truly did, конечно!

I don't have a receipt how to succeed, but this whole process needs a huge heap of luck too…

Caddydaddy
whose Wife is in Latvia and he is bored

[Misha]

I still contend that there are many RW who will still consider marriage to the right foreigner because of one or more of the following: ...

Interesting, you overlooked the most obvious: she fell in love with a man who was incidentally a foreigner and married him and moved because of the man that he was, not the country he came from 

[Blues Fairy]

Do chickens in a supermarket thank you for choosing them too?  

If you feel like a chicken in a supermarket, you will be treated like one.

[OlgaH]

We both even discussed this in detail prior to our first meeting and both came to the conclusion that any mutual commitment prior to meeting and spending some face time would be foolish.  We agreed to keep our expectations realistic until meeting.

Ken,
When Robert and I deleted our profiles it was one of our mutual commitment. I don't think it is foolish. Our devotion helped us to concentrate our attention only on each other. We did it because we were interested only in each other. He and I have been two real people with realistic expectations.    The most important part is to be able analyze but not to build illusions about each other. If one side is just a player and even liar the other side should have an ability to catch it.

I would rather agree it doesn't matter VO or VM or something else, a person should choose his own way that suit him. I also would agree a person who are not sure of his above-mentioned abilities to go first with VV. But there is also some doubt if it will work for him. "Visit many" is also will not work for people who are not able to analyze, concentrate their attention and catch "play and liar'.

Actually it doesn't matter VO or VM because only life together will dot its' i's and cross its' t's sooner or later  

[RussianWind]

I notice you're "still looking" while I've been happily married to a RW for over seven years now.  Pehaps your "attitude" explains why you're still single? 

Which attitude? To say things openly as they are? I consider it's a plus.
And "still" is not an appropriate word in your sentence. I would say "at the moment"  

Blues Fairy that's why I am not on a shelf in a supermarket