Men (and women) why do you let age inappropriate relationships get started?

[mies]

But, when I live in South America, I FEEL different as a man with a woman because of:
1, I provide a sense of security (there is no reliable 911.  So a man IS a man.  Not a mannequin).
2, I provide resources - dinner; transportation; etc... (There is a different kind of appreciation and generosity at work here)
The difference is remarkable as it becomes manifest in the man / woman relationship.  (And do not perceive my comments in the stereotype of a devious sex tourist.  Rather, most of my relationships have been sincere and good, and not short.)

These are the primary attributes of being a man as the story of humanity tells it: Protection and Security.  Resources and Assets.  In less than a generation that has changed.  I am not saying it is right, or wrong.  I am just making a stark realization.

ok, I see your point now - you are one of those men who like when woman gets paid less and has less rights because then man can feel a provider. Sadly. Frankly speaking I am surprised and disappointed - I did not expect this kind of attitude from you.

In that respect - you are completely right. Women in FSU (and possibly in South America) are much discriminated on gender basis. And man can feel stronger this way.

Do you think it is pleasant (or normal) to live with a person who self-reassures while degrading the partner (or rephrasing: feels secure when his partner is insecure)?

[mies]

How do you know my 29-yo son?!  

i'm 30 and often hang out with people like him ))
 

How are they doing?  My son’s married friends are doing well.  All, however, are DINKs.

among my friends - there are some DINKs too, as well as couples of 1-2-3 and i think in one case - 4 children. How are they doing - about same way as my married friends of same age back in Ukraine and Russia. Couples with kids - talk about finding a good school for a child, or relocating to have better environment for a child/-ren. Couples without the kids (like myself and my husband) - just live usual life - work/leisure/travel/planning for future and reaching milestone goals.

 

My 29-yo son and his unmarried friends say the better women are already married. They have not met anyone who justifies the risks:  the costs of marrying (not just money but independence), the issue of kids, the high frequency of divorce among seemingly compatible people, the costs of divorce, etc.

Perhaps the only thing saving marriage is the fact that humans are hardwired to live as couples.  

it's all the matter of perspective. Probably he have not met the one to fall in love with. I'm sure there are plenty of good unmarried women out there. Or marriage wasn't his priority so far. Love often works as perfect justification for the risks.

[Jumper]

I agree that 20-30-40 yo middle-to-upper class European or American men look on average much better than same class/age men in Russia/FSU. It most likely has to do with diet, lifestyle, and eagerness to exercise. I also see many sexually attractive females (or at least what I consider to be sexually attractive). And by sexually attractive I do not mean slutty outfit. Anyone can dress-up like a whore (look at the American girls dressed for Halloween).

I cannot judge how hard is it for US man to get a date with sexually attractive female. I know several AM who are in that age group and are currently single. I also know few who are 40-50 and currently single.
Those who are 40-50 feel very comfortable being single and as some has told me - never wanted to get married. I don't know what's going on in their private life - how many dates they are having or how often, but they don't look unhappy.
Those my single acquaintances who are younger - some never been married but had some long-term relationship in the past, some are divorced. In my impression - they do not really want to get a new girlfriend because they aren't completely over their past relationship, or they are not trying hard enough. For example - one friend complained to me that he cannot find a girlfriend, so I asked him how about the girl he met last weekend.  (The girl was American, a medical student - very smart, young, and hot.) My friend said it wasn't serious, he woke up in bed together with her after night of drinking, and then she left and he was not interested in meeting her again and he never called her back. And that he had met a bunch of "not serious girls" in the past. So - it does not look to me like this guy is lacking sex, or can't get dates with sexually attractive girls. He makes certain mistakes himself, and for some reason - he thinks that those girls are not serious. Maybe they aren't indeed, but I don't think he is doing proper things.
Another acquaintance of mine - does not mind having easy-going dates, but does not want to have long-term commitments. So girls do not stick with him for long-term - either they break up with him, or he breaks up with them.
I think the problem for American men (and women) - is not in the diminishing role of male in society - but in rather complex civil law system. It is too costly to get married with a wrong person. It is too risky to marry anyone, or to get close with anyone. It is too risky to accumulate common property, to have children together and so on. And people value their financial stability and security far more than anything else. Everyone is too independent.

I also know two american guys in their 40s dating 20yo  american college girls. Guys are very fit, 'have it all' - looks, income, flashy cars/houses etc. I don't think girls mind the age gap, guys look quite happy too. Guys do not take girls seriously though, and they do not want commitment nor families with these girls. Girls, for now, do not mind just dating. I don't know how their relationship will evolve as girls grow older/wiser.

I have never met a 50+ yo american with 20yo american girlfriend (in non-celebrities circle that is).

Another story: a female friend of mine recently graduated from college and moved to another state. She sold her house (she is from well-off family and done some successful investments too, her new job pays over 100K). Before moving to a new place - she made a plan:
- rent downtown apartment for 1 year - to be close to people and have more chances to meet a man
- find a man during this year
- marry him and buy a common house - the two of them will contribute, and therefore they will have a bigger house
- start family, have children

Very logical, mechanical, and rational plan. Primary purpose not to find love - but to find a good partner to buy large house with, and to have financial stability.
Is it really easy to find a man to fall in love with in a 1-year term? How many other women like this are there? (I don't think my friend is the only one like this)
She looks OK. Not superhot, but quite attractive.

I am not making any conclusions from these stories. Just sharing my observations of US life. Maybe it is harder for AM to get a date with sexually attractive AW in a same manner as RMs are getting their dates with RWs. But maybe it is not that hard to find a partner to start a family with. But men avoid risks? Or women avoid risks too?
I do have many American friends in their 30s with families and children.

What do you think?

I think you are very observant.

i'd say that is my personal experience as well , with friends and age groups.

[IAmZon]

MIES QUOTE: "ok, I see your point now - you are one of those men who like when woman gets paid less and has less rights because then man can feel a provider. Sadly. Frankly speaking I am surprised and disappointed - I did not expect this kind of attitude from you.

In that respect - you are completely right. Women in FSU (and possibly in South America) are much discriminated on gender basis. And man can feel stronger this way.

Do you think it is pleasant (or normal) to live with a person who self-reassures while degrading the partner (or rephrasing: feels secure when his partner is insecure)? END QUOTE

Although you understand my observations, you misunderstand me ENTIRELY.  And, more importantly, the significance of these truths as they become factored into a "modern" or  "Current American  Society"  I have no ax to grind.  I am not an advocate for one side, or the other. I'm just trying to understand the world in which I am living.

As for my preferences and beliefs: I prefer women to be my equal in every way: intellectual; financial; etc...  But, after 1,000s of years of evolution, I think it is only wise to take full note of historical and hereditary gender roles.  There are certain things that women do better than a man (create and nurture a family; raise and love children; etc). There are certain things that men do better than a woman (look out, and address dangers; manage conflict with outside forces; create stability and provide resources).  NOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS: some men are better mothers than women.  Some woman are better income earners than men.  But, those examples are rare and can conflicts with established norms that are "hardwired" into our human make up.

In my view, and in the best of cases, both sexes compliment each other and create a good wholesome and successful marriage, and family.  But, these roles lay the foundation for what I guess we could call the "traditional view".

The "modern" or "Current American" marriage and family model is different - generally speaking.  And that difference creates imbalances that negatively affects the male.  Even the basic security issues are the role of the police and state.  Woman have reached a position of equality in earning wages.  What happens?  Do you think the man looses and the woman wins?  I don't think so.  I do not seeing either side getting what the truly desire.

The best manly traits such as chivalry have become insulting to some women, sometimes.  - in enough cases to cause confusion and uncertainty.  For a man to make expressions such as generosity; affection; and honor are now risky little social things. (For example.  Yesterday, I say a woman who I felt positive about - NOTHING ROMANTIC - and I have met her several times.  When saying goodbye, I said" Goodbye sweety" meaning it in only the nicest way.   It caused an awkward moment in the room, and I think that's BS.    I prefer to open doors for ladies and let them use my umbrella in the rain; to never allow a woman to pour her own glass of wine.  Call me stupid.)

Gotta run.  This is a deep and complex subject that does not conform to generalities.  But the negative affects of these social changes are at the base of many unfulfilled relationships, in my humble opinion.

[mies]

Although you understand my observations, you misunderstand me ENTIRELY.

thank you for explaining. I did understand you quite well. The taste and content of the candy does not change if you put it in the nice wrap. I know that several famous consumer psychology experiments shown that people perceive taste differently if they are conditioned in certain way, but that doesn't change the taste of a product - only the perception.
I disagree with you. This is true that man cannot breastfeed, or bear a child. For the rest - I do not see why men prefer to view themselves as impaired of parental skills relative to women. I have a male friend - very nice guy. Once i was babysitting his little daughter. He brought 1.5 yo girl to my house, gave it to me and when i asked him "so what should i do?" he told me "don't worry it will come naturally to you. It came naturally to my wife, it will come naturally to you. I do not know the details but it's very simple". and i was like: "You must be kidding me".
Sadly, the guy was serious. Some men use "gender roles" as justifications for their reluctance to learn and to be better partners. Some women have same approach. There is an approximation of balance in a society. Woman who likes the "traditional gender roles" will be very happy to live with you/date you, Rivardco.

So let's leave it at this. I do not want to dive into argument, as we clearly do not have points of agreement on specifics of "gender roles". And I am not going to change my opinion, as well as you won't change yours.

As for good manners - I also offer my umbrella to the guy if he doesn't have one. And i hold doors for the person after me. Or let the person go in front of me sometimes, or let guy go first if he has large box in his hands. So let's not mix oranges and apples together. I can call a person some words equivalent of "sweety" - i often do it with my russian or ukrainian male or female friends. Not so often with american, but sometimes with them too. They do not mind.

[IAmZon]

I am almost never argumentative (except for that A$$ Jb that used to post here:)  I am not a potted plant either. I change my mind when there is good reason.

I do respect your position as it must be the result of your life experiences which I do not nearly understand from a few paragraphs on a discussion forum. 



 

[mies]

I am almost never argumentative (except for that A$$ Jb that used to post here:)  I am not a potted plant either. I change my mind when there is good reason.

I do respect your position as it must be the result of your life experiences which I do not nearly understand from a few paragraphs on a discussion forum. 

i respect your preferences and position as well let's shake hands.