western men of above average income??

[I/O]

At 1.61 AUD/EUR seriously considering a visit but 20+ hours on a plane blows it.

Both those have been around the same for years now and aren't likely to change much anytime soon.

[GQBlues]

GQ..

That's the amount TG openly admits to..  I think double hits the spot, not to forget the 10 or so years involved in his 'adventure'.  Figure that in and in terms of productivity (he is self employed) and we're probably in the range of a half million dollar wife.  Not saying VW is not worth it to TG, but reality is reality.

PWEW! Alrighty then...I thought I once read TG did have more than just an extended FSU experience, which is why I was having a tough time believing that daily 5 bucks MickeyD plug was a bit out of kilter. Or maybe not?

Cost of finding my wife, or maybe better her finding me: $0.00

Well, that's priceless 

[Boethius]

I might add that even if you have the money I do not think catering to your child's every whim and demand is doing him any favors in life. Yes children want things, but what do they really learn about life if their parents buy them everything they want all the time.
my concern is that such a woman not looking for a man to love at all. She's looking for someone to buy her a lifestyle. Whats wrong with that? Well I for one will absolutely guarantee a divorce and misery for the man she says "Oh, I love you your the one for me." Which in the case of a woman like this only means "oh you can buy me things." It sounds to me like a spoiled child at Christmas time imploring their parents that if they really loved them they would spend 9000 dollars on that cute monkey at the pet store that looks like the monkey in the cartoons they used to watch.
but again my opinions on such things are usually far from normal, but if most people enter a marriage with a view like this I am suddenly not shocked at the high divorce rates. Here's an idea if you want a 100,000 dollar BMW get a job when you get over here that helps to get one. Help your family out. Work together, what a strange concept that is.   

Who said I cater to my children's whims?  You can have all sorts of theories about rearing children until you actually have some.  My kids are not spoiled.  All are honours students, two are now teens who don't do drugs and have never given us any trouble.  They are respectful and polite.  Yes, they are typical teens emotionally, but that is normal development.

SJ, yes, the cellphones are a necessity.  $30 per month per child, cheapest plan available (Canada is notorious for the cost of cellphones, internet services and cable).  Ski equipment?  Not a necessity because I suppose they could slide around the streets or skate, but it is a favourite form of getting outdoors and enjoying fresh mountain air.  I think games are a necessity in the culture in which my children live.  They have also been proven to improve, in children, both hand/eye coordination and eyesight.  This has been studied extensively, particularly with surgeons who perform laproscopic surgery.  I think it is important to expose kids to many things growing up.   

[Gator]

When touch land of milk and honey I work for first day??

Ask you what is man for?? 

Men die before women.  Add this longevity disparity with an age disparity and a RW could find herself alone at a relatively young age.

What resources will she have to maintain her lifestyle?  You say your man has a sizeable net worth today? 

What assurances do you have that he will bequeath it to you?  What may seem like today to be a sizeable portfolio of investments could be diminished in value by the inflation that America will experience as we pay the piper for all of the recent government stimulus and benefit programs.

A RW's only asset may be her ability to earn a living by working.  Welcome to the land of milk, honey and DEBT.     

[remiel6]

Boethius, the first thing I learned in law school was one of my professors telling us that when a person, or a lawyer has no better arguments to make they start attacking the speaker. I have never been to mars does that mean I cannot talk about mars. I have never been to Rome does that mean I can't learn Italian and study Italian art or the history of the city of Rome. Please bring a substantive attack and do not resort to a "you don't have kids" argument. Your smarter than that.
Second of all, there is zero correlation between being an honors student and being spoiled. I can have the qualities of both. There is nothing inherent about the nature of being either an honors student or a spoiled child that says you cannot be both.
Ski's to go down the street.... that was your quote, who are you kidding here. I grew up in Minnesota not some other planet. You do not buy ski's to go down the street with.
There is nothing wrong with what you are doing, and I never said that your kids were spoiled. I only mentioned that to say that you have to have those things to be happy is simply not true.
Lastly the OP needs to provide context which she has yet to do. She seems great and making jokes, but she's terrible at answering questions.
1. Does she want to work? If she never wants to work at all, and she wants five children then yes her husband will need to make more money. It's okay if she wants to but the context needs to be provided
2. Where does she want to live? if She wants to raise 5 kids in San Fransisco and by all means doesn't ever want to work then yes. Her husband will need to make way more than 50K a year. Also, since this is what she mentioned there is a slim to zero chance of her owning that house she wants, ask the people here to actually live in SF as opposed to the posters fantasies about SF.
3. What lifestyle does she want? All i know is she doesn't want to live in a trailer park, but well there are million dollar trailers in California. At least there were before the housing bust. But there is a very, very large gap between trailer park  and bill gates and alot of places in between.

my point which has not really gone refuted and its my opinion a girl, (notice I did not say the poster) who only wants to drive 100K cars and have 5 kids in a 73000 square foot home without ever working is a girl I want no part of, even if I make the money to support her and the answer to why is simple
IT'S REALLY SHALLOW....
agree or not agree it makes no difference to me.
does she have a right to her search criteria? Absolutely
Do I have a right to mine? Absolutely
Do I ever have to date a girl like the one the poster is insinuating that she is? No
Would I ever advise anyone, even bill gates to date a girl like this? Not on my life.
Why? because people like this are never happy. It is never enough. If you judge life only by the things in your closets you will never be happy with me and I will never be happy with you. Its as simple as that.
So you can say what you want, but its a forum and I can reply how I want. I can only hope that people bring rational arguments and not childish replies that amount to little more than my dad can beat up your dad.

[Sculpto]

Eric, how do you know she's beautiful? Care to elaborate? You're in San Fran, she's been...maybe your paths have crossed?

Joe they are all "beautiful" 

[Sculpto]

I ask you what is man for??   brave girl

Based on your comment.. what is a woman for?  look pretty and sex?  how boring.. yawn...

[Sculpto]

Last night I saw an interview with the Dalai Lama.  I think it might be a good idea if the OP read some of his writings.

[JR]

Last night I saw an interview with the Dalai Lama.  I think it might be a good idea if the OP read some of his writings.

She wouldn't understand them unless they had a price tag on them

[Ade]

SJ, yes, the cellphones are a necessity.  $30 per month per child, cheapest plan available (Canada is notorious for the cost of cellphones, internet services and cable).  Ski equipment?  Not a necessity because I suppose they could slide around the streets or skate, but it is a favourite form of getting outdoors and enjoying fresh mountain air.  I think games are a necessity in the culture in which my children live.  They have also been proven to improve, in children, both hand/eye coordination and eyesight.  This has been studied extensively, particularly with surgeons who perform laproscopic surgery.  I think it is important to expose kids to many things growing up.   

Yes, you're right, I feel very neglected myself not having had all that ski equipment, cell phones and computer games when I was growing up. I guess my childhood would have been very much more fulfilling and happy, and I would have been so much more successful in later life had I had them.

Seriously though, I can see why a cell phone could be a necessity these days but the rest is a luxury and not entirely necessary to bring up a well balanced, educated kid that has access to the outdoors. You can rationalize all you like but my point remains; you don't need all the stuff even if it's nice to have. Millions get by quite happily without after all.

[Boethius]

remiel, no, you cannot know what it is like to raise children until you actually do so.  Children are not inanimate objects.  There are many variables that come into play when you raise children that are beyond your control.  Children have their own souls, and their own views.  What works in reaching one child won't necessarily work for another.  Often, those views are in conflict with your own.  I think you can ask any parent here (of older or grown children) whether what the reality of parenting is as they imagined.  

A better, albeit still imperfect, analogy is sex.  You can be a great theortician on what makes a good lover, but when you are a virgin, you really know nothing of the matter and, I daresay, will not be the great lover you envison when you first move beyond theory to fulfill all your theoretical notions.

And yes, I know you can't ski on streets, remiel.  That was sarcasm.  But, my kids don't ski on streets.  They ski in the Rockies.
  
SJ, it is not whether or not objects make a childhood fulfilling.  It is whether you are raising a well rounded human being, from a spiritual, physical, and emotional perspective.  Varied experiences aid in attempting to reach that goal.

I did grow up poor, for much of my childhood.  My husband grew up even poorer, and was poor even by Soviet standards.  It is a very nice fairy tale to say you can be happy without money.   But when you are walking to school in November, in -4C, in a light spring jacket, because your parents can't afford to buy a winter coat, or you come home to an empty fridge, and wait for your mother to come home with half rotten sausage, all she can afford (experiences both I and my husband remember from our childhoods), it isn't so "happy".  Can one survive it?  Of course.  Humans have survived far, far worse.  But that doesn't mean it is desirable or that, as a result thereof, you will be made of sterner stuff.

[Ade]

SJ, it is not whether or not objects make a childhood fulfilling.  It is whether you are raising a well rounded human being, from a spiritual, physical, and emotional perspective.  Varied experiences aid in attempting to reach that goal.

I did grow up poor, for much of my childhood.  My husband grew up even poorer, and was poor even by Soviet standards.  It is a very nice fairy tale to say you can be happy without money.   But when you are walking to school in November, in -4C, in a light spring jacket, because your parents can't afford to buy a winter coat, or you come home to an empty fridge, and wait for your mother to come home with half rotten sausage, all she can afford (experiences both I and my husband remember from our childhoods), it isn't so "happy".  Can one survive it?  Of course.  Humans have survived far, far worse.  But that doesn't mean it is desirable or that, as a result thereof, you will be made of sterner stuff.

Of course you overlooked my qualification so I'll remind you what I said;

I will admit though that it makes a difference whether you can afford the basic necessities in life comfortably; that is, food, clothing, heat and shelter. Once those are taken care of, I really do not think we with our 6 figures are any happier than someone earning in the low 5.

It's a long way between having life's basic necessities comfortably met and skiing in the Rockies; from your posts it seems that you believe that with all those extra material things raising a "well rounded human being" is more likely or perhaps you mean easier? Either way, I'd have to disagree.

[Boethius]

Exposure to different situations and ideas does usually create a more well rounded person.  Exposure to different sports, to different languages, literatures, people, etc. are all part of this.

[Ade]

Exposure to different situations and ideas does usually create a more well rounded person.  Exposure to different sports, to different languages, literatures, people, etc. are all part of this.

Yes, but you don't necessarily need money and things for that. Yes, it can be easier but not an absolute necessity unless you talk of world travel but I would then debate your assertion that you need world travel to be a more well rounded person.

[Turboguy]

SJ, yes, the cellphones are a necessity.  $30 per month per child, cheapest plan available (Canada is notorious for the cost of cellphones, internet services and cable).  Ski equipment?  Not a necessity because I suppose they could slide around the streets or skate, but it is a favourite form of getting outdoors and enjoying fresh mountain air.  I think games are a necessity in the culture in which my children live.  They have also been proven to improve, in children, both hand/eye coordination and eyesight.  This has been studied extensively, particularly with surgeons who perform laproscopic surgery.  I think it is important to expose kids to many things growing up.   

Yes, it always makes me wonder how I managed to grow into a functioning adult without the computer games to develop hand eye coordination.   We had none of that stuff and had to do useless things like play baseball, tennis, football, street games and on rainy days things like chess and checkers.  Today's kids are so much luckier to be able to sit in front of their computer screen for hours and hours learning hand/eye coordination.  It will let them grow into healthy adults who spend hours every day sitting in front of the screen playing computer games. 

[Turboguy]

  Just too lazy to update my bio, TG.

Off Topic: That daily BigMac attack grab bag line was not really true, is it?  

Wow GQ, you should post some wedding photos some day soon.  If you need any advice for AOS or the like let us know.

Actually not every lunch was McDonalds.   I would vary between MickeyDee's, Wendys, Subway and our locally famous Brighton Hot Dog shop where 3 bucks will get you three dogs. 

[BC]

Yes, it always makes me wonder how I managed to grow into a functioning adult without the computer games to develop hand eye coordination.   We had none of that stuff and had to do useless things like play baseball, tennis, football, street games and on rainy days things like chess and checkers.  Today's kids are so much luckier to be able to sit in front of their computer screen for hours and hours learning hand/eye coordination.  It will let them grow into healthy adults who spend hours every day sitting in front of the screen playing computer games. 

Yeah, like these guys http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2009/January%202009/0109UAV.aspx

One day we will be flying in passenger planes without pilots.

[Turboguy]

Per year?!? Clothing, food, car expense, entertainment, etc...?!? Dang! Wifey really have you on a budget, or is this a simple case of selective or quick reading?

No, she doesn't have me on a budget at all.   $ 1000 per year is not a case of selective anything.    There is the comment that "The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys"   I am just not into toys.  You must be.

I will hold to my $ 1000.00 statement but that is "me" things not "we" things.  For example we are heading to Aruba in a month.   That is a "we" thing.  If I was going alone it would be a "me" thing.  

I don't spend much on me other than a few hundred for clothes a year and my Monday night bowling league.   I used to golf in two leagues but gave that up because I wanted to spend time with my wife not my buddies.  

[Turboguy]

Probably spent WELL OVER 100K? LOL. Holy smokes, who's stupid enough to do that?

Yep, me.   There is the comment that "If you have to ask the price you can't afford it".  To be honest I never thought about the price and have no real idea what I spent and couldn't care less.  It was worth every penny for the wonderful woman I ended up with.

They also say "Life is a journey not a destination"   I had some amazing times along the way, met some wonderful people, saw some interesting sights and got to watch the FSU change dramatically as I made my trips. 

I have no idea what the cost of it all really was.  If I had to put a number on it I would say probably around $ 150,000 but it could have easily been $ 50,000 more or less.

Just think about this however GQ.   I did that with an income that was pretty close to the income you don't think someone should do this with.

[boaterguy]

This ought to skew things even further! When I did the K-1 for my wife I actually padded my tax return(added more income) so I wouldn't appear to be below the poverty level. If I recall my average income for the 3 years on my tax returns was around 22K per year!

Now a days the majority of my income is in capital gains. Many of my expense that most have are write offs on my business. Some vehicle,some housing costs, and believe it or not around 100 or so days of eating(business travel) are deducted from my income due to being self-employed.

My wife stopped communicating with a guy that made 60K a year because people at her agency said he was poor! Good thing they didn't know how much I made! 

As Turbo stated above...money management is the key! Our lifestyle is easily equal to people who make 200K per year. As for the luxury items...the key is having the money to jump on a deal and the patience to wait for a deal! Examples: I bought a loaded average milage(40,000) 2007 Ford F-250 4X4 Diesel lariat the end of last year during the panic and high diesel prices. This truck cost around 50K when new and are now still selling in the 25K-30K range. I paid 15K for it! I bought a boat on ebay of all places 2 years ago because it was an H of a deal. Traded it last year on the boat I wanted for a tidy profit of at least 30K! I could go on and on like the E55 AMG Mercedes I picked up this year for well under wholesale with only 35,000 miles on it,the150K I made on a home I only owned for 5 years,etc.!

In summary, if a person is wise he can live the life of luxury on the salary of trailer park trash as brave girl sees it. The only fun part about it is proving to the IRS how you can afford your lifestyle.

[Blues Fairy]

Yes, it always makes me wonder how I managed to grow into a functioning adult without the computer games to develop hand eye coordination.   We had none of that stuff and had to do useless things like play baseball

That's why you didn't become a laparoscopic surgeon. 

[BillyB]

Any of you noobies reading this still confused? Scared?

I've read RW forums for 5 years. Some RW stated they don't need/like sex. Some want your money or a ticket to the land of milk and honey. Some men in their marriages not only carry the financial load, take care of the yard, take out the garbage and making sure the home and vehicles are in proper working order but cooks the meals, do the dishes, wash the clothes and cleans the house and takes care of the kids full time after work. That can all be read right here on the forums and it happens in real life.

Some RW will value you as a human being and if you bring her here without deceiving her, she will most likely accept the life you promoted. She will not see you as a cash machine but a partner in life sharing responsibilities. If you're not a deadbeat and run into tough times where your investments tank and/or you lose your job, if she's not working she will find a job to help out and give you encouragement that she will remain by your side.

If you choose to visit a virtual stranger and propose marriage on the first visit, you won't know what kind of woman you're marrying. Maybe you'll get lucky but it's better to be smart and make sure there are lots of communication especially on issues such as money, family, and the roles a man and woman play in marriage before talking about marriage. Many men pursuing RW do it backwards. :noidea:  Get married and ask questions later.

[GQBlues]

Good post BillyB!

Skiing is great fun. Like most athletic activity our there, the exercise is but a mere part of the benefits of active sports participation. I would definitely welcome an opportunity to someday make sure my kids are open to these opportunities if and when they are available.

Actually not every lunch was McDonalds.   I would vary between MickeyDee's, Wendys, Subway and our locally famous Brighton Hot Dog shop where 3 bucks will get you three dogs.

Got'cha TG, high-roller in FSU, speedee-weenie specials at home. Got the drift. 500 Mil is still a lot of coins to dole out for that type of slef-finding enrichment program, for me anyway. I definitely don't belong in that league.. .

As for the whole cost valuation segment of the discussion, gotcha there too...it was a simple case of you being serious but not really... 

[Gator]

MickeyDee's has a more varied menu in Russia than the US.  So maybe this is what Turbo meant by lunch at MickeyDee's?   

[Turboguy]

Strange post GQ.   You hitting the sauce a little early today?   I agree with you that skiing is great fun but where in the world did that come from.  I see no discussion of skiing or anything that would lead to that comment in the thread anywhere.   While I am on the subject where did you get the 500 mil figure?  

Why would you think I was a high roller in the FSU.   I will admit that I was dragged into a few things like a $ 600 dinner and a girl from Kiev who invited me to a dinner party with 8 of her friends and then handed me the bill for the whole dinner but I did more than my share of eating in McDonalds in the FSU as well.   When I encountered a girl like the ones I just mentioned they quickly became history because the one thing I am not is a high roller here or there.

As far as my being serious but not really I didn't know you were along on the trips to know how serious I was or wasn't.  I will admit that in my early searches I had a bit of being afraid to zero in on one in case something better might come along but I can't say I really had many good cantidates in my early trips.   Then I got into a Big Agency Tour mode which wasted a lot of money and a lot of years.  After that I got dead serious and pulled out all the stops to try to find the right woman.  I had one time I made a trip, came back for 5 days for a trade show I needed to attend and hopped back on a plane for the FSU again.  

You implied your status had changed and I am still looking for the wedding photos of you and your FSU bride GQ.