Entitlement Attitude

[Sculpto]

At this time I have not accepted or declined the lady's offer. I ended the call by saying "I need some time to think about it. I'll call you back later." By saying that she will respect me more for not jumping into bed with her so quickly in exchange for money.  No marriage minded woman likes the thought that the man she sleeps with is prone to paying prostitutes for sex.

Although the RW made a bold proposal to me, it did not come out of her mouth easily when saying it. I suspect she did not want me to look at her with less value.

Go ahead and justify it some more Billy.  She named her price.. end of story.  She is willing to trade her body for money.  And you want to call her marriage minded?  Her idea of marriage is an exchange of money for her body.  Sounds like true happiness for whatever poor idiot falls into that spider web.  And you think she won't trade up at first opportunity?

Yeah.. we can all see how well you navigate and understand women.   

[BillyB]

And you think she won't trade up at first opportunity?

If she was your girl, would you be jealous? I'd be happy if she finds a good man. I'm not in a relationship with her. I don't feel she's insincere because she had the chance to milk more dates out of me 2 weeks ago and put on the illusion she likes me so I could keep feeding her. Now she just wants to be friends with benefits.

You want us to believe that you would have nothing to do with this woman but for a woman, you are willing to compromise your morals and values. Remember that woman you've known for years but you really didn't know her until your recent trip to Thailand with her? Her behavior and business ethics run against the grain of every moral fiber in your body yet you were willing to continue a relationship with her if she gave you a second chance. That's the power of the bush. Some guys just aren't as strong as they like to reflect.

She is willing to trade her body for money.  

Do you remember who said these quotes?

"I have known and been friends with a number of women who were sex workers.. from simply being strippers to very high priced escorts.  In all those cases they CHOSE to do it in most instances to finance an art career or in the case of the one I was closest to.. to become a choerographer."

"less than 6 blocks from where I am sitting right now are the dungeons for the "kink" family of sites as well as the largest and most famous sex nightclub in the US.  Kink has a tour of the dungeons once a month.. I have taken visitors."

"I don't go to the golf course with my buds.. no.. we go to the brewery around the corner and smoke weed on the patio and flirt with the art girls when they show up...I go to performance art events where men look like girls and girls look like men... I have performed in front of hundreds of people in a circus troupe that specialized in shows that make Cirque Zoology look really tame."

"When I go to the FSU and I bring my "book" that has photos of the adventures I have had in Mexico.. some of the performances I have been in, includng nude photos of myself.. not posing trying to be sexual, but, stark naked in the desert spinning fire in front of a thousand people.. well.. guess what kind of reaction the ladies have, umm Vaughn.. THEY LOVE IT!  "You very interesting man Eric, why you not married?"  Thats what I hear, every single time.  And those wild party girls my Nigerians introduced me to in Donetsk suddenly turn very serious because they know from what I ave shown them that a life with me will not be conventional.. will not be something boring stuck ina Stalin house waiting for the snow to melt."

"I once almost fell in love with a very beautiful young artist here in SF.  The lady was brilliant, gorgeous, funny.. all the things I was looking for, but, she had a dark side.. she was a stripper.  And, not the kind of stripper that does half clothed lap dances but a truly XXX stripper.  She liked me too, but, she was obsessed with exposing mysogeny and even the slightest hint of it was just cause in her mind to rip into whoever provoked her.  I spent quite a bit of time hanging out with this woman, inching slowly ever closer to entering into a relationship with her."

Mr. Fiction, Please don't preach your morals and values and warn me of the dangers of associating with women who sell their bodies in an effort to put yourself on a moral pedestal. If you don't change your ways, you will write more posts like the one below. I am serious man and I'm trying to wake you up. You have got to rethink how you think or you will be without a girlfriend for another 7 years.

"That is why I am sticking with my troubled girl in Tomsk too.  It was hard to find her.  I wrote a LOT of letters and I do not mess around when I was in writing mode.  I get right to the point and I can filter out the ones that are not capable of handling the kind of lifestyle that I have had.  I have been with AW and a FW that did nothing but interfere with my art and i have spent the last 7 years without a GF of any kind so that I could get my art refocused and re-inspired."

I will not say on the forum whether or not I will accept the offer to be the RW's lover. There is no benefit to tell everyone here my answer. I could say "yes" and a good number of people will label me a fool. I could say "no" and a good number of people will label me a fool. Whatever I decide, I know I will be happy with my decision..... and everytime my body is joined with hers, I will think of all the fun Mr. Fiction is missing.

The RW's last call has moved me further from thinking of any marriage with her. Whether or not I accept her offer, I will continue to speak with her as a friend and hopefully I can relay to her that the value of a man lies withing himself and it's not external or what he can provide. Simply finding a good man to marry should satisfy her desires of having a good provider because a good man is responsible and will take care of his woman within his means. I will also lecture her about slowing down when hunting for a husband and talking about marriage and cars after the first date is a turn off for most men. If she someday changes her views, I won't rule out marriage but the reality is it's a long shot. I'm also communicating with a few women that are much closer to my way of thinking and we'd be a better match.

[Sculpto]

Whats your point Billy?  That I have friends who are strippers and hookers and it doesn't bother me?  Or, are you still trying to defend as marriage material a girl who propositioned you with a very specific price (not very high one at that, low self esteem or is she just that desperate?). 

You claim to be wise in the ways of women, yet, all you want to do is justify away the behavior of this girl as somehow normal and acceptable.  She wants marriage to be a kept woman, not because she wants to be loved.  She is willing to marry someone she doesn't know very well if at all if it means she will be secure, even if only for a short time till the next idiot comes along.  She already used a RM as a mule to get here.. now she is trying to trade up.  And you appear to be considering at least taking her for a test drive. 

My relationship isn't the subject here.  What is the subject is you trying to justify as marriageable a lady that propositioned you.  I am not trying to stand on any moral ground at all, just calling a spade a spade.  You have spent the last several weeks trying to convince all of us how successfully you are dating and obviously not everyone is buying into your fantasies. 

[BillyB]

are you still trying to defend as marriage material a girl who propositioned you with a very specific price (not very high one at that, low self esteem or is she just that desperate?). 
   

What we have here is a failure to communicate or maybe you having some comprehension problems. DO NOT post under the influence. I said she's looking for marriage. I didn't say she's marraige material and I also said her last call to moved me further from thinking of any marriage with her. Of course  $500 is nowhere near the value of a car that a boyfriend/husband would have to provide but maybe she wanted to keep the price low so she doesn't scare me away as her physical needs need to be fulfilled. Some people do enjoy sex on a regualar basis.

all you want to do is justify away the behavior of this girl as somehow normal and acceptable. 
 

I guess you haven't read anything I've written to GQ in this thread. In a nutshell I said behavior like hers is not normal for most RW.

I want to say more but you aren't thinking straight tonight so.....nevermind.

[Sculpto]

If I proceed with this woman in any type of relationship, I have 3 ways to proceed. 1) Be her husband at a high cost. 2) Be her boyfriend at a high cost. 3) Be her lover at a very low cost but she can leave me at anytime once she finds a husband. I don't need to take a poll to understand which path most men will take.

I read you quite clearly.. or perhaps you didn't write what you meant.. but the above quote to me indicates that you are in some way considering some form of relationship with the woman and additionally you have justified her behavior as being somehow acceptable by default because you indicate that you are considering a relationship with her.

Or maybe you were trying to make some other obscure point that I and certainly others are not getting.

And billy boy.. your not so shrouded comments about your assumption that I am high or something just prove the weakness of your own arguments.. Your logic is failing miserably so you try to deflect attention by calling out a perceived flaw in me.  Sorry kid.. it doesn't work that way.

On the off chance you were trying to make a point about entitlement.. just for sake of argument lets say that was your intent.. ok..

So what do you think YOU are entitled to?  Clearly it is something.. perhaps sex without commitment?  You claim you are seeking a serious relationship that results in marriage, yet, by your own postings one could easily draw the conclusion that you are motivated to some other purpose.  What that purpose is remains unclear to me, but what is clear is you obviously think you are entitled to something.  So what is it Billy, what are you entitled to that you aren't getting?  What is it in you that makes you keep posting about your "successes" on the forum?  Do you want to be considered a guru?  Do you want guys to look up to you and say, Billy is the man, he is getting Russian booty without even going to Russia?  What is it dude?  Its obvious something is bugging you.. so out with it.  Drop the pretense and man up to your weakness.

[Gator]

Billy,

This young RW student is questionable IMO. I leaning towards 2012is Fiction's position although I would not take it that far.

This RW has been on just one date with you, not enough to know you.  Yet she is telling you that she expects to be taken care of economically, as if to say,  "If you pay my price you can have me."  

She could be some fun for you, but not wife material.  She is just a starving student it seems.

In the FSU I don't believe the issue of support is discussed, even after a decision is made to be together.  If a man wants a RW to be his woman, he will support her to the degree that she needs it.  If she needs support and he does not offer, I think she will not ask for it and instead look for another man.  A real man knows what to do without discussing it.  Having to discuss it would make it seem more like prostitution.

[BillyB]

This young RW student is questionable IMO.
 

The woman in question is between the age of 25-35. She is questionable and that is why any thought marriage with her is moving further out of my mind. Unlike the men who go to the FSU and their ladies boldly ask for gifts without offering anything in return, this woman states she will give back. Am I putting her on a pedestal for her generosity? No. But she is a step above NickB's lady who asked for a $700 coat, didn't offer anything in return, and threw a tantrum when she didn't get it.

I leaning towards 2012is Fiction's position although I would not take it that far.

2012's position is he would not take it anywhere but he will try to inch closer for a relationship with XXX strippers. I don't mind his opinion but when it's "Do as I say, not as I do", then it loses value.

Do you want to be considered a guru?

If people having sex is bothering you, you should bother married men in this forum, they are having more sex than I and a lot more sex than you and they could teach you more than I. If you don't want to hear about people's dating experiences with local Russian women, you should stop reading to lower your blood pressure.

2012, what are your goals in this endeavor? You want marriage and family with a family oriented woman? Your lifestyle is not family oriented. You like sex or you don't? You associate with a lot of strippers and escorts but you went into voluntary, maybe not voluntary, celibacy for 7 years. If you don't like what I have to say or don't think what I say works, you can start your own thread and tell everyone what works in attracting women. If you really believe, as you said once before, that showing nude photos of yourself get women interested in you or any man, then state it again. I never bashed you when you made those posts in the past but I will remind you that a few weeks ago you warned the ladies in this forum about me and insinuated I deceive women to attract them. That's a serious allegation basically categorizing me in with the sex tourists based off that behavior. You then continue to follow me around like a lost puppy. I have been nice so far. For a guy that doesn't like war, you sure like to bang heads.

[SANDRO43]

The woman in question is between the ageS of 25-35.

Is she undecided about her own age ?

[BillyB]

Is she undecided about her own age ?

No, but there's probably enough nutcases reading and armed with enough detailed info, they will try to Google and track her down to either get me in trouble or make an attempt to be her lover. I like to keep her anonymous but people in this endeavor should know women like her do exist. I'm sure it's on a lot of men's minds that when they have or attempt to have a relationship with a RW thousands of miles away, how is she taking care of her physical needs when they are apart? It's true that some women will take on a lover until she is united with her husband or while currently looking for a husband.

[Sculpto]

Billy, what makes you so funny is that you so easily comment about things you know nothing about yet state such things as fact.  You keep thinking by attacking me you are going to win some points, yet, your arguments are empty.

Nevertheless, we aren't here to discuss my social life at this time.  What we are doing is trying to understand why YOU persist in posting boastful and rather pointless information that comes off to many as a lot of hot air.  You remind me of those guys in the locker room that bragged about getting a piece from the cheerleader, but, who in reality not only got nothing but a slap in the face instead.  I seems yo are trying to compensate for something.. we can only guess as to what that might be.

What really amazes me is even after all this debunking you STILL persist in claiming this girl is somehow marriage material.  Are you really that dense?  What kind of marriage would it be Billy?  Isn't it obvious to you?  I can see it now.. you would head off to bed hoping to make love but before you can get the action started you would have to negotiate todays price.. would it be 500 for a new purse?  1000 for a pair of designer boots?  Or just 100 for a new hair color?  Is that the kind of marriage YOU want?  That you would even consider such a scenario calls into question all of your motives.  I have to say, if your self esteem is so small that you would settle for that kind of relationship, or even consider it, you would be a lot better off to just rent your sex partners and live a free mans life. 

[BillyB]

DRUGS KILL BRAIN CELLS

you STILL persist in claiming this girl is somehow marriage material. 

You have said that once before and I have answered once before. You seem to need to hear things twice to understand. Big difference between a woman saying out of her own mouth she's marriage minded and me claiming she's marriage material. Grab a quote of mine before posting so you won't be accused of twisting words or making things up.

What kind of marriage would it be Billy?  Isn't it obvious to you?  I have to say, if your self esteem is so small that you would settle for that kind of relationship, or even consider it. 

The only people talking about entering into a marriage is you and and that RW. My opinion of her has dropped and I'm surprised nobody has chastised me on that yet. Some people will defend RW who ask for gifts even when they don't offer anything in return.

Here's a hot tip: Drugs kill brain cells.

[Sculpto]

hahaha.. you still persist in attempting to attack.. and I have news for ya.. you don't know diddly about me or my supposed drug use.. you argument is empty.

And yet, you STILL defend the girl.  She "says" she is marriage minded, yet, states very clearly that marriage to her has a price.. and you defend that somehow?  And you say drugs kill brain cells?  Hmm.. at least I have some to kill. 

[BillyB]

my supposed drug use

Supposed? You can't even remember that you admitted to using drugs? I hope you're being honest in your profile on dating sites/marriage agencies and in correspondence with RW as honest as you were with us.

She "says" she is marriage minded, yet, states very clearly that marriage to her has a price.. and you defend that somehow?

Defend her for putting a price on marriage? I turned her down because it turned me off. I am beginning to think I'm talking to a wall. Someone else please chip in your 2 cents on this issue even if it's criticism based on something I actually said.

[Sculpto]

Supposed? You can't even remember that you admitted to using drugs? I hope you're being honest in your profile on dating sites/marriage agencies and in correspondence with RW as honest as you were with us.

Defend her for putting a price on marriage? I turned her down because it turned me off. I am beginning to think I'm talking to a wall. Someone else please chip in your 2 cents on this issue even if it's criticism based on something I actually said.

Billyboy.. I dont deny experimentation.. not in the least.. what have I done lately?  nada.. you ASSUME I am sitting here pulling bong rips all day long and typing on the forum.. WRONG.  Do you drink?  Do you ever get drunk?  By far the most powerful intoxicant I have ever consumed is alcohol and I rarely if ever touch the stuff.  Last time I even got buzzed on booze was more than 2 months ago with a member of the forum and two nice Siberian ladies.  Alcohol burns more brain cells than anything I have ever tried. 

So, based on your grasping attempts to discredit me by pointing out what you assume to be an ongoing consumption of who knows what substance and your obvious ignorance as to the affects and consequences of the unknown substance you are convinced I am abusing it is quite clear once again that your arguments are empty.

You have stated over and over again in this debate that you are either less and less interested in the marriage minded hooker lady or that you were considering her proposal for easy sex.  That means you were in fact interested in marriage with her, or in taking advantage of her lonliness as long as it suited you.  You still have not stated emphatically that you are not interested in her, and, have waffled on the subject.  Instead of defending her as being "marriage material" and attempting to attack me on a personal level, how about you simply state clearly once and for all that you are not going to either enable the hooker lady and her plan and also not going to take advantage of someone who is clearly alone and vulnerable.  If you would be so kind as to do so we can dispose of this argument and you can go back to trolling the internet for your next mark girlfriend.

[BillyB]

  Do you drink?  Do you ever get drunk?

Rarely and NO. I like who I am. I don't need to be something else. Read a statement of yours I quoted in post #151 in this thread. You must have missed it besides missing a lot of things I said but that does not sound like experimentation to me. You failed to comprehend a lot of what I said in this thread. You really need to quit smoking dope. Please don't tell me you're a casual user but if you are, it's probably because you don't have the money to be a heavy user. I don't put much trust into guys who show their nude photographs to RW in hopes to lure them into a relationship. If you accurately debated my thoughts based off the words I wrote, we might have had a more productive debate. I get tired of you putting words into my mouth saying I said she's marriage material. Drugs kill brain cells.

[Sculpto]

hahahaha.. jesus Billyboy.. you are really clueless...  IF I was a regular pothead to you really think I would actually spend money on a plant that is very easy to grow?  You live in greenbud central in Seattle and don't now the first thing about cannabis.. you also live in a town with a lot of sweet women but are fixated on RWs, especially whorish ones that you make excuses for.  I think you have a syndrome that is very well known down here in the Bay Area where dudes like you are common but out of respect to the rest of the members of the forum I will not mention the name of it.  Sigh Billy.. you make me laugh.. I gotta say you are amusing.. you're fixated on a lot of things.. but hey.. you are a "real man" and a "real man's man" and you are clearly an expert on me.  Dude, you would be really surprised how many pot heads there are on the forum.  In fact, you would be surprised how many pot heads there are in the world.  So, your drug of choice is booty.. what do you get out of it?  Clearly your constant pursuit of it demonstrates some sort of longing.. some sort of need.  What could it be?  Feeling insecure about something?  Oh wait now, that can't be it, you like who you are.     Billy, I've got news for you.. life kills brain cells.. but given that most humans use something like 10% of the available brain capacity some people are actually able to access a higher percentage of the available neutrons. 

Bottom line, you still didn't say you are going to leave that poor girl alone.  Why not? 

[Boethius]

No. But she is a step above NickB's lady who asked for a $700 coat, didn't offer anything in return, and threw a tantrum when she didn't get it.

You are mistaken.  By Nick's description, they were practically "sleeping on top of each other" for a week.  She didn't throw a tantrum, she became quiet.  His perception was it was the "cold shoulder".  But, who knows, she could have been confused and working things out.  You also neglected to note the woman didn't speak English and they were communicating through a translation device.

It seems to me your lady friend, who proposed putting out in exchange for cash, is more experienced or perhaps, a better word is "sophisticated", in these matters than was the lady Nick met with.

You indicated you will not say whether or not you will become her lover.  If you decide to go ahead, you won't be her lover.  You will be her john.

If you have "high morals", don't sleep with her.  Offer her friendship and, if she is in need a bit of cash, give it to her from your heart, solely as a friend, from time to time.

As for your comments to 2012, read in context.  The nude pictures were performance art.  I have an artist friend, an art photographer, who goes to Burning Man every year.  Many of the performances, and many of the spectators there, are nude.  It's not at all unusual in performance art, and to suggest 2012 was showing nude photos for purient reasons is a mischaracterization.

[BillyB]

Bottom line, you still didn't say you are going to leave that poor girl alone.  Why not?  

I did say. And you wonder why I think you're high on drugs during our exchange in this thread? Post #151 last paragraph.

The nude pictures were performance art.  I have an artist friend, an art photographer, who goes to Burning Man every year.  Many of the performances, and many of the spectators there, are nude.  

Boethius, I understand you've been married for decades. You've been out of the loop. If you're a beautiful lady and put up a profile today, you will get tired hearing every excuse in the book from a guy who tries legitimize the reason he showed you a nude photo. Some women in their profiles request they don't want to see nude photos and dick pics. Lots of the nude pics of men on male scammer/sex tourist forums that have an artistic pose to them too.

I talked to the RW who made me a proposal face to face yesterday. We talk for hours.

I'm her first American date. She's only had relations to and dated only FSU men in America. I ask her how her dates with FSU men go. Almost all try to get into financial details about her life. Some ask for sex straight up by the second date. Some look down on her when they learn she's a new here and since they are already established in America with an education and a good job. Based on her sample FSU men are much more direct and probably discriminate based on social status compared to Western men I assume. FSU men have asked her bold questions and I suspect that is why she speaks boldly too about what she wants and expects. She tells me the reason she feels she has the right to ask me for financial help in exchange for sex is because if I won't commit to being her boyfriend/husband she doesn't feel obligated to give sex to me for free because I could be using her. She says she knows she's beautiful and lots of men look at her when she walks down the street. If she wants to have sex for free, there are many men she can choose from. I tell her that I feel used if I have to pay for sex.  

I told her what I said in Post #151 last paragraph. I lectured her on many other things. I told her about her dating mistakes with me, what turns men off, how she should act and where to go to find good men. I told her I don't need to pay for sex, I'm not desperate, and I have a few RW I'm already seeing. She is not upset with what I said and based off the way I talked, she knows I care about her as a person and she respects me even more. I'm not like the FSU men she's dated before and she likes me. We will be seeing more of each other but marriage with her will probably not happen. She likes my behavior, personality and character much more than I like hers at this point.

[Boethius]

Well, this will give me a chance to correct my last post - I meant "prurient".  Sorry for the typo.

Billy, 2012 was not transmitting nude photos of himself.  Showing pictures in an art book in a live situation is a lot different than sending women unsolicited nude photos.

If things happened as you described, this woman is playing you.  

[BillyB]

If things happened as you described, this woman is playing you.  

And NickB's girl was much different?

Help me out here. How is she playing me? What's the bait and when do I get hooked? I don't need to pay for sex. She doesn't need me to pay for dinners dates for her, she doesn't need a man to stay in America, I will probably call her once every two weeks and talk to her as a friend. If she wants to see me for something, she can call me. If I decide to take her out for dinner, I will pay for it on my own free will. I also got better women to choose from. I'm way past her league on the intelligence scale and if she's playing men, she did a poor job landing one of the Russian guys she's dated.

[Boethius]

I'm not referring to the money.

She is lying to you about FSUM.

[gousa]

Here's a hot tip: Drugs kill brain cells.
[/quote]


Russian women kill brain cells.

They also kill your spirit, bank account, and anything else they get they greedy little hands on.    Billy please refrain from throwing you life away further.  You are a good fella.  The sickening feeling  felt once as I walked under entrance to the Auschwitz camp where it reads  "Arbeiten Macht Frui" comes to mind when I think about the further punishments that await your decent soul in the land of gypsies, tramps and thieves, and the abusive culture and women that wait there like droves of predators and wolves.   

[BillyB]

Russian women kill brain cells.

  Billy please refrain from throwing you life away further. 

Thanks for the hot tip but I never had the same experiences you've had although I acknowledge living with the wrong RW can bring hell.

 She is lying to you about FSUM.

I've probably had more experiences with young RW than you've had. You married at a very early age and have little dating experience and are generations apart from today's young RM. I believe the RW when she talks about her experiences with RM.

[Boethius]

"Generations"?  Really?  LOL.  How old do you think I am?  I would hazard a guess we are near the same age.  Why are you dating women "generations" younger than you?

If human behaviour changed in each "generation", we would no longer be reading Sophocles or Shakespeare.

I know a lot of immigrants from Russia and Ukraine.  Some are good people, some are not.  The woman's statements are not particularly "Russian".  She is playing you, just as many women, from various cultures, would, to obtain what they desire.  You just can't see it.

[groovlstk]

The sickening feeling  felt once as I walked under entrance to the Auschwitz camp where it reads  "Arbeiten Macht Frui" comes to mind when I think about the further punishments that await your decent soul in the land of gypsies, tramps and thieves, and the abusive culture and women that wait there like droves of predators and wolves.   

That's an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, from a variety of perspectives. But when you begin a relationship like this, I'm hardly surprised:

When I told her it wasn't safe for me to marry her she was already here and said she couldn't go back and started crying all day and night and wouldn't stop.  After a week of that I had had enough, grabbed the stupid prenup, made her sign it and said, "Okay we're married now, just don't be a goldigger."  She said that she wasn't and I believed it.