Am I corresponding with Pro Dater or am I just paranoid?

[Gator]

Welcome Tim!

I read your thread quickly.

You asked her if you could stay in her apartment when you make the trip?   Or did she volunteer that staying in her apartment is awkward?  Sounds a little too forward.

Although I think Tanechka is real.  The fact that she talks to you on the phone is a positive sign.  Not answering the phone is a bad sign however.  If she gave her phone to her sister, why didn't her sister answer when you called.

When calling what do you talk about?  A woman who claims she does not know how to use a computer probably knows no more than 10 words of English.

I suggest that you arrange a time to call her and use one of American based interpreters to have a long, serious talk. 

You say she is a member of Elena's Models (EM).  This is a little underhanded; however, maybe a RWD member who has already joined  EM will volunteer to contact her.  The response will reveal something.

Regarding the translation, the quick turnaround is explained by the fact that upon receipt of your letter the interpreter calls Tanechka, reads the letter to her, takes a few notes and writes a response.   

$100/month for translation is not inexpensive.  Compare it to prices charged by Cindy Agency:

All the translation we do for free!
All the letters from ladies you receive free on your e-mail!

Pay only for your letters you send via our site!

The cost of delivery of your letter - from $3,98 to $5,00  depending how many credits you purchase at once.

If you sent a letter every third day to a Cindy UW, that would amount to $40.   Are you writing that frequently?  So if the interpreter is stringing along 20 men such as you, that is $2000 per month, a handsome income for Ukraine. 

Thus, the motive is there to cheat you. 

Not taking a trip until the spring is bad because it prolongs a likely pay by letter (monthly) scam.  It just means spending more money and becoming more serious about a woman who is probably not sincere.  After doing what I suggest above, I believe you should drop the letter writing (and the $100/mo terp fee) and tell her that you will just call.  The reason to tell her:  you are too busy working and making money.

[RussianWind]

http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23456&start=0

Just a quick examples of some passport scams.

It was really funny to look at them. I would say immediately they were faked without going into a detail investigation - photos in Russian passports have to meet certain requirements. Care to send me a "document of your lady"? I am now curious if they are smart  

[RussianWind]

Regarding the translation, the quick turnaround is explained by the fact that upon receipt of your letter the interpreter calls Tanechka, reads the letter to her, takes a few notes and writes a response.   

Agencies make good money from your naivety. I am pretty sure nobody calls to anybody. All letters are written long time ago and their effectiveness checked million times on you 

Why do you love such difficulties? Why don't you just contact women who do all job themselves? 

By the way had a good laugh at the agency letter.

[RussianWind]

Also, she has an Encyclopaedia on her desk.
...

There also looks like there's maybe some election or voting promotional things to the left of that photo.

Looks to me too, something connected with elections.

[tim 360]

Hey Timothy,  Welcome aboard and you should be suspect.  You are in a pay to play writing game and that can be a red flag all by itself.  Most people can't tell the difference of a phoney FSU passport or a legitimate one.  So thats a non-starter.  The agency exists to take your money.  Most girls her age had English or German or French in school but usually not very fluent.  She can't operate a computer?  Not.  Maybe 10 years ago many didn't but today most do, especially university graduates.  Something is fishy.  You did receive some good advice from others---heads-up on this one.

ps:  She should have a cellphone.  Most do.

[Gator]

All letters are written long time ago and their effectiveness checked million times on you 

Tim did say that she answered his direct questions.  Perhaps the terp could respond with canned answers if Tim asked open ended questions such as do you want children.  

Why do you love such difficulties? Why don't you just contact women who do all job themselves?  

Men rather read the "sweet nothings" from clever interpreters than letters asking difficult questions such as do you own a house and are you meeting other women.

A sincere RW will not express feelings of love in a letter, while a scam will give a lonely man plenty of fantasy material, all for $5 per letter or $100 per month in Tim's case.

[RussianWind]

Tim did say that she answered his direct questions.  

In one line you answer questions, in the other 10 you use a prepared letter.

[Timothy]

Wow. Awesome I received so many responses!

To answer everyone's question about the letter writing, the letters are quite deep-full page length. Not just one question but many questions and all our letters are in depth just as if I was corresponding with my girlfriend or mother in my hometown from the army.
If she is a scam, it's a very clever one.Not the usual basic bad grammar with no answers to questions that we all see drop in our mailboxes.
Russian Wind: Yes, I can send you a copy of her passport.

Gator: I was never asked to provide money for translations.......well at least not yet. I just paid it on my own (for November) when I decided to send her some flowers. I would say now, it was too premature to do. At this point I will not offer to pay for December.

I receive and send 2 letters a week so 4 letters total in week translated-full page length or sometimes more.

The 'expressions of love' really amount to phrases such as "I stop often to have a conversation with you in my mind" and "You are in the thoughts of my heart" No, "I love you" yet. Of course I come back and say I am thinking of her too but that is where it stops with me.
As mentioned previously in my posts, I speak Ukrainian also to a small extent so basically on phone conversations I use a bastard form of Ukrainian/English if necessary. And she does understand a small amount of English by voice.Therefore we understand each other without repeating about 80% of the time.
When I was writing to her about arrangements, I asked her about living arrangements in her apartment or was it necessary to get my own apartment. That is when she said it wouldn't be comfortable to stay in her apartment because of her room-mate living there. Well, she gave me the name of a girl but for all I know, it could be her boyfriend.

Seriously Jaded: Interesting about the encyclopedia in the photo. If she is a 'court clerk", then why would that be on her desk?


 Was anyone able to check out that site? hxxp://www.etoiles.com.ua?     (x=t)


Thanks again!!!!

[CanadaMan]

I have had women send copies of passports.  I never had one do it that was not a scam.  I think Vikings advice was good except since the city in question is Odessa I might disagree a little with the part of writing others from the same city.   I would suggest a near by city like Kherson or one of the other cities close enough to Odessa to reach without too much difficulty.  Finding your dream girl in Odessa is not an easy task.   

I'm in agreement with the others about this woman. I would bet a good deal of money that it's a scam. Take a good cold shower and look at all the red flags/facts.

I recently was in a letter-writing 'game' with a 'woman' from Russia.
She wrote me more than 20 letters over the course of a month or so.

After the first few letters it was very obvious that it was all a scam but I kept writing just for the fun of it (keeping my letters very short).

'She' tripped up in so many different ways. Changing the name of the city where she lives, sending me her passport as proof that she was legit (a huge red flag right there), traveling half way across Russia to Moscow to rent a flat while she "waited for her visa to be ready"!!!!
And on and on. It was a joke really.
She made a trip half way across her country but refused to get on a webcam at an internet cafe to show her mug. She refused to give me her telephone number, etc. etc.


TurboGuy I have a question for you.
Why did you say that finding your dream girl in Odessa is not an easy task?
What is it about Odessa?

[tim 360]

Timothy,  I went to the site.  Looks like a new site and of course they only take Western Union.  A Translation Agency?  Which also has tons of services and gifts but...no girls on their site.  Reminds me of a "Translation Agency" that used to operate in Ukraine some years back that was very profitable.  All run out of Odessa.  So profitable that they had to keep changing their name every few months.  It was Ukrainian this or that and kept changing and run by two very sharp scammers.  They would post girls profiles on feeder sites which would feed them plenty of interested guys worldwide.  For a short time the letters and translations would all be free and then...they put the bite on you...to pay.  It will be creative like ..."  your lady does no longer have the funds to pay for..."  Serge and his partner and a couple translators write all the letters and they scammed plenty of guys.  Funny, looks and reads just like their old sites.  Be careful.  If it is them they have been running this con for years.

Ok.   Now I remember a couple of their names, Ukraine Tours, UkraineStar etc.

[Ade]

Wow. Awesome I received so many responses!

Seriously Jaded: Interesting about the encyclopedia in the photo. If she is a 'court clerk", then why would that be on her desk?

Ask her. Just tell her you were looking at her photos and you noticed it.

[Turboguy]

TurboGuy I have a question for you.
Why did you say that finding your dream girl in Odessa is not an easy task?
What is it about Odessa?

CanadaMan, I have never been to Odessa for any first hand info although I passed through late one night in a car.   Just too many guys go there because it is a beautiful city and the women tend to be spoiled and be prone to be serial daters.   I rarely hear any one having luck there and lots of horror stories.

[Jumper]

I dont think you are corresponding with a pro dater.

you are likely corresponding with someone at the agency though.

The only oddity and positive is that you spoke on the phone,,
but only you know how often ,and what you discussed ,that would make all these  *red flags * seem less important.


I would certainly not plan a trip to see her based on your situation so far.
things go poorly often enough,when everything seems well or at least when most things seem well and on the up and up.

in this case you seem to have :
 that *someone* reads your emails enough to answer direct questions
and not much more.

[Stirlitz]

Turboguy, quit telling bad things about Odessa. As I am not there now I may believe you and stay in the Crimea longer. And my wife will be unhappy!

[Timothy]

Tim, Turboguy and Canada man:

Thanks for the heads up on your posts. You may be right. And it could be any kind of setup based on what you described. A translator and a sweet-sounding girl working together as a team possibly.

Is it really so bad for a sincere pretty 25 yr old Odessa girl to find a nice guy in Ukraine that she must look elsewhere? Are ALL people evil in Odessa?
 Some of the hype is true that agencies speak of about their men but I can't believe they all are alcoholics and that the men there are lazy and expect the women to do everything as she states. There are many loser men in Ukraine and Russia just as in many other countries including U.S. But then why do we have the need to look there for women? Because there are only loser girls here?
I think our major problem here is that we all stereotype.


On one early conversation that I had with her on a weekend on her cell, her next letter did not mention the conversation we had on the phone. It was then that I had contacted the manager of the club (not like it would make any difference I guess) to ask if Tatyana was real. That was then I received the reply (see above post) and copy of her passport.
Anyway, after questioning Tatyana about it, she claimed she wrote the letter at home just before I called her.

So AJ, you may be completely right. I may be corresponding directly with the translator only.......and the phone calls are possibly conveyed from the girl to the translator to give the correspondence credence when the translator is writing.
I wish I could do a reverse phone lookup like we have here.
The girl is real, that is for sure. But is she in fact the one I am corresponding with?
She says she will live with me if in fact I go there. In fact, she state she would like to see me soon however I won't be able to make it there until early next Spring. So what will happen, if it's a man writing scam...I will go there and be told she is not available?
Right now, my main concern is the #4 reason in my very first post. I should probably expect an answer on my letter pertaining to that by Tuesday.
I've decided not to pay for any more translation costs so I will wait and see if I will get the bite. In the meanwhile, I might as well try to find someone else but at this point, based on what I've read in this forum, there is not even one agency I trust so it may not even be worth it.

[BillyB]

Timothy, some men have lost sincere REAL women because they keep acting in a way that requires a woman to prove her existence. All I know is I would never be in your shoes. I'd be communicating with tons of women at a much cheaper rate with less headaches and confusion. The best way to forget about a woman is to get involved with another woman. Keep your options open and communicate with a few more ladies and you might find one that leaves you with no doubts.

[Sculpto]

if you are paying $100 a month for unlimited translations it is IMO a scam. 

The camera thing is a big pile of BS.  There are cameras everywhere, on phones, in peoples pockets and Ukrainian girls LOVE posing for pictures. 

There is a chance the girl is real.. obviously someone does on occasion answer the phone.. however.. there are too many other almost red flags to take the correspondence seriously.

The claim she doesn't know how to use a computer is simply pure BS.  There are plenty of internet cafes in Odessa and to even think that someone can't type is absolutely stupid.

If it was me.. I would move on.

Try the mamba network.. girls there have their own computers and no agencies to interfere.. the fishy ones are obvious and few.  Learn how to effectively use google or some other free translation site.  I am currently writing with a very nice lady in Moscow that doesn't speak a word of English but we are having a hilarious correspondence.

[Sculpto]

Yes, she could work in long-hand. In fact, one of the photos she had sent me a photo of her at work doing long-hand.
My java doesn't seem to work properly with the scam card. I get an error when calculating the score. 
Anyway it looks like it would be a legit score. For example, the contact info are all 'yes' and the needs and wants are all nos.
I'm not sure if the scam card accurately reflects the possible pro-dater scam scenerio.

Its not a pro-dater scam.  It is a translation scam.  Until you get her away from "handlers" there is no way to know for sure what is going on.  Have you searched for her on vkontakte or odoklassniki?

[Sculpto]

Yeah, I should do the same since I obviously have nothing better to do but sit here and analyize this over and over all night. And by the way, you will have a long wait because I do not plan on going there until early spring.  

Dude.. find someone worth visiting before you waste your money and time.  I know its hard to let go of the illusion, I HAVE BEEN THERE!  But.. everything you are reporting looks makes it look like a bad scenario. 

You came and asked.. like me when I was in the same situation, you don't like what you are hearing.. also like me.. I wasted $3500 and ten days of my life believing in something that wasn't real.  There were only two positives that came out of it.. one, i made a good friend who helped me uncover the lies, and two, I got smarter and didn't make the same mistakes again.  High price to pay for what should be obvious.

[Timothy]

Thanks for the advice BillyB.

In summary, I suppose that since all the members on here agreed there are red flags based on what I stated, then better to let her go and look for someone where there is not a single doubt.
I was just thinking maybe I was wrong in my prognosis and there were hypothetical reasons she did what she did.

Anyway, I really did enjoy the correspondence I had with her or him or translator or whoever.  

[SANDRO43]

In summary, I suppose that since all the members on here agreed there are red flags based on what I stated, then better to let her go and look for someone where there is not a single doubt.

I was just thinking maybe I was wrong in my prognosis and there were hypothetical reasons she did what she did.

Yes, it's hard not to hold on to a pretty FSUW, a mistake most of us have done - at least once .

[Timothy]

Fiction---Thanks. All your points are valid and that is why I stated them as red flags in my first post.

To explain again as I did earlier about the translation cost: I was never asked to send money. I did it on my own---for one month worth. So it is not a translation scam yet if I was not asked for money.
Obviously I should have waited instead to see if I got the bite to pay for the cost and I would have ended the correspondence long ago at that point.

Wow, sorry you lost $3500 over 10 days. How did that happen? You bought everything she wanted and let it get that far?

She means that she does not have experience with computers and typing English. I don't know the percentage of <30 age women there who have no idea about how to use a computer.
I agree with you though wholeheartedly. 
But is it possible that not all girls have computer training and so they go to the agency in the first place? How did all the successful married men here meet their women? A different way perhaps?

[RussianWind]

Sometimes we get too much paranoid I think. Sometimes things what we think reg flags, they are actually not.

But... it's absolutely doesn't matter what we answer and what we think. You should follow your heart only. People without doubts never ask questions here. If you ask, than there is something what really worries you. And worries do not come without a weighty reason normally.

I would personally contunue to write if it doesn't involve any money. C'mon, I know people who use an on-line traslator and feel ok with it.

By the way a good idea to try to find her in social networks. Young people are addicted to it. She maybe very active there and types pretty well 

[Timothy]

Hi Russian Wind:

Yeah, I did all that. I googled her and all I could find were links to Elena's models,Best Dating.com and also some social network called Wayn.com
From what you know based on what I sent you, that is all I could find.

From my heart, she seems like a very nice, frank girl. I don't know how someone could go so far with such intricate,deep letters as you yourself read, all for just hopes of translation money. I have already told her that I have a budget and she seems ok with that. And she did in fact state she would like to see me soon, so that does sort of defeat the argument of paying translation money every month.

I suppose with my doubts that I would just need an honest person to check her out, maybe even send an 'expression of interest' thru Elenas or even go so far and place a call to her.

[Jumper]

timothy..
having been thru this many years ago..
the game may have changed?

I have been to the FSU many times (back then )and certainly agencies writing men emails, for translation fees was quite normal method of operation. Having girls meet with you for a fee was as well, (regardles if she had any genuine intetrest in you.)
This was all merely bubble gum scam  in my opinion..
and there was far darker....

The good news is that there were plenty of single sincere women as well.
you can find them. It isnt any easier than at home in your own country.
.
The bad news is that yes ,,of even those,  much of the initial motiovation to list themdselves with a marriage agency or
dating site for foriegn men ,and possibly leave all they have know,family and friends
 is economic in nature,
so most men should loose some of the romantism (not all of it )..
take the small bitter pill, accept the rules of the game, or its best to step away IMHO.
 

As far as this woman,
you had conversations with her, and should have a better take than us keyboard advisers..

personally i wouldnt get too caught up in the moment with her,

but you could call her, give her your number and home email.
and if she is genuinely interested, she will find a way to contact you.
even a dedicated scammer would

I wouldnt let paranoia consume you either.
let things fall where they may.. insincerety will show itself..and if you have your eyes wide open,
 you shouldnt get hurt or taken.
being overly paranoid will ruin any real relationship quickly..
so its a fine line to tread..

as it stands ,shes young (25 and your late forties?)
and you arnt sure you are even corresponding with the girl in the photos..
I wouldnt get too emotionally invested ,thats for sure.