My trip to Ukraine - Part three

[brave girl]

At the low end, the (American) man has already shelled out $2,500 to $3,000 just to meet the woman face to face.

Shallow pockets did Ukraine sexual holiday with girls for $2000.00 USD.   brave girl

That made me think of this: A month or so ago I went to Ukraine where I got laid once. The total cost was about $2000.00 USD.

[I/O]

you ladies can be much more tactful in hinting what would make you happy and not necessarily resort to just requesting that an expensive gift be purchased out right.

Technically correct but IME off target where RW (perhaps not all) are involved. Mine, her mother, sisters and others (at least when dealing with me) will tell me EXACTLY what they want when it comes to gifts, did so right from the get go and if I have my way will continue to do so. For the most part, any RW (Or other FSUW) I dated were pretty much the same. By the same token, I have never found "no" hard to utter.

I really don't know the ins and outs of this story but on the face of it, I can't see she did much wrong. She was into the deal IMO, perhaps thought he was too and got to the stage where she thought it not inappropriate to mention what she'd like as there was likely a gift coming anyway. She miscalculated him big time which is usually the other way around. That's the rarity here so far as I can see, not the gift request.

SJ: Ken's right. The English text thing was hashed out before you arrived here. I don't care much as I can read a bit of Russian and have a first class translator sitting next to me quite often when I am reading, BUT to deliberately attempt to use text others clearly don't understand, whether innocently or not, appears to be hiding something and as such is rude. Hence I don't post on Russian language forums as I may well resort to the same thing.

Boethius: As for guys going east because WW want to be men, it's a lame excuse they trot out from time to time and IMO is BS. I detected sarcasm in your post and If I am correct..............................

[Misha]

Technically correct but IME off target where RW (perhaps not all) are involved. Mine, her mother, sisters and others (at least when dealing with me) will tell me EXACTLY what they want when it comes to gifts, did so right from the get go and if I have my way will continue to do so.t from time to time and IMO is BS. I detected sarcasm in your post and If I am correct..............................

Yes, but the most that any woman ever asked from me in the early stages of dating (i.e. the first few weeks) was some kind of small souvenir from Canada.

[I/O]

Yes, but the most that any woman ever asked from me in the early stages of dating (i.e. the first few weeks) was some kind of small souvenir from Canada.

It seems to me this lady didn't see at as "early stages".

[SMS60]

Technically correct but IME off target where RW (perhaps not all) are involved. Mine, her mother, sisters and others (at least when dealing with me) will tell me EXACTLY what they want when it comes to gifts, did so right from the get go and if I have my way will continue to do so. For the most part, any RW (Or other FSUW) I dated were pretty much the same. By the same token, I have never found "no" hard to utter.

I have no doubt about what you say but do doubt these same people were telling you what they wanted the first week you visited your wife. Lets keep apples with apples

[I/O]

I have no doubt about what you say but do doubt these same people were telling you what they wanted the first week you visited your wife. Lets keep apples with apples

Assumptions are often inaccurate. Yours is no exception.

[KenC]

Technically correct but IME off target where RW (perhaps not all) are involved. Mine, her mother, sisters and others (at least when dealing with me) will tell me EXACTLY what they want when it comes to gifts, did so right from the get go and if I have my way will continue to do so. For the most part, any RW (Or other FSUW) I dated were pretty much the same. By the same token, I have never found "no" hard to utter.

And THAT is the lesson to learned here: be prepared for the question and be prepared for your answer.  IMO, NickB could have ended this with a clear "no" for his answer.  Not meaning to bust Nick's balls on this as he was NOT prepared to answer when asked.

I really don't know the ins and outs of this story but on the face of it, I can't see she did much wrong. She was into the deal IMO, perhaps thought he was too and got to the stage where she thought it not inappropriate to mention what she'd like as there was likely a gift coming anyway. She miscalculated him big time which is usually the other way around. That's the rarity here so far as I can see, not the gift request.

All good comments

Boethius: As for guys going east because WW want to be men, it's a lame excuse they trot out from time to time and IMO is BS. I detected sarcasm in your post and If I am correct..............................

Now who is out of touch with reality?   Most American women have lost most of their feminine qualities and our society and culture continue to portray women as big and strong while men are small and weak.  (Don't get me started on this! :evil:)
KenC

[Mars]

I think it is a matter of character.  On my first trip to visit Lena I was leaving and had accumulated some stuff purchased for my flat.  I had also brought a new portable CD player that I had every intention of leaving with her along with some Cd's I had brought for our entertainment.  I had to convince her to take these items because she did not want to give the impression that she spent time with me for gifts.  She only agreed after I said I would leave them for the landlord if she did not take them.

Ken, I had similar experience with one of the 4 FSUW I was seriously involved with.
Upon my leaving, I told her to take the portable heater I had purchased for the rented apartment.

She said, NO I will not take it.  I am not a prostitute.
I also gave the line about, 'then it would just go to the apt owner.'
I finally convinced her to take it by saying she could just keep if for me as we might need it for another apt on a future visit.

Others did have more of an entitlement attitude, although none actually asked for a gift.

[Mars]

Quote from: Boethius on Today at 03:15:13 AM
Second, a lot of Ukrainians don't really have a concept of money in "our" terms.  To her, asking for something that is $700 (assuming that is true) could be like asking for something that for her is, say, 700 UAH - not a lot, in her estimate

Phooey !!
I have never in my life met a woman, from ANYWHERE, that did not fully understand the value of money. How many currency exchanges did they use or walk past? No, this woman was smarter than that. 

I agree with the phooey.  This was about the silliest posting I have seen here.
I dated many FSU women.  They all knew exactly where to go for the best exchange rate and knew exactly how long they themselves would have to work to exchange a given amount of their own currency to equal what I was exchanging in the other direction.

All of them felt $700 was a lot of money . . . to anyone.

They also all felt the amount I had to pay for an apartment was outrageous and that I must have made a mistake.  But when I asked them to get a better rate for me . . . alas they found they could not once the owners knew a 'stupid' foreigner was involved.

[I/O]

KenC: .......or which other Emo do I use. No argument with what is happening in America or anywhere else, but the argument that the rise and rise of the "Ballsy Bird" is the reason guys go east is BS..........unless the 'Murrican boys are ball deficient?

[vwrw]

From my perspective , not taking gifts is rather a matter of confidence than anything else.  I know NO girl or women or old lady who would refuse a gift from dear people. However, women may refuse a gift if they are not confident of the person with whom they deal. 
Mars and KenC, do you think your woman would react differently to your gifts if they were initially as confident (that you would never think of them as  prostitutes) as they were confident after you mentioned the apt owners? I think they would react differently.
I believe (I can be wrong) if something is a matter of character or sense of pride, then that should be stable by nature. For example, if it is a matter of character or sense of pride that I do not pay men for companionship, then I would not do that regardless of how long we know each other. Since your women's reaction quickly changed , it was a matter of confidence. 

How soon a person starts to be confident around new people depends on his/her background and experience. If a woman was never mistreated or called a prostitute after she took a gift from somebody,  then the idea that the giver can think of her as a prostitute may never come to her mind. And this fact does not signify that the woman is lacking character or pride.

[vwrw]

When I was in search for the right one, I had never used understatement or other rhetorical devices intended  to make response more diplomatic. I expressed my disagreements and objections first without mentioning the points I agree with. Although my approach to communication irritated some people and they self-selected themselves out, the approach was right for me because by applying it, I have found my prince charming who is fine with my style. The same about the woman who demanded  an expensive gift…maybe begging is her approach to identify what she looking for… a walking deep pocket. Since she did not put a gun to her man’s head when making her request and the man was entitled to say no, perhaps it was better for them both because they found they were not compatible. Would it be better if she didn’t make her requests for gifts now and they would have wasted time in ignorance he-about what she wants and she-about his reluctance to give her that ?

[KenC]

KenC: .......or which other Emo do I use. No argument with what is happening in America or anywhere else, but the argument that the rise and rise of the "Ballsy Bird" is the reason guys go east is BS..........unless the 'Murrican boys are ball deficient?

Well my friend,
You exactly hit the head of the nail on this one! As the American women lose their femininity, so do the men here are losing their masculinity.  We really are becoming an adrongynous society IMO. :selfharm:
KenC

[KenC]

 
Mars and KenC, do you think your woman would react differently to your gifts if they were initially as confident (that you would never think of them as  prostitutes) as they were confident after you mentioned the apt owners? I think they would react differently.

vwrw,
Respectfully, I think you have it completely backward.  Lena was/is a strong, confident and highly principled woman and to accept an inappropriate gift in her mind) was beneath her.  Way too proud to ask for a gift, ever.  She would starve rather than to ask for charity.
KenC

[Boethius]

And I have the opposite position that the view expressed by your husband as well as yourself is obfuscating the real point with a disregard of basic dating and./or relationship protocol/etiquette/whatever.. that the COST of a gift IS the central point here and is directly proportional to the depth and growth of a relationship.  Teddy Bears and trinkets are signs of affection and considered appropriate early on.  Expensive gifts are demonstrative of deeper commitment or a desire for such commitment and the acceptance of such gifts are indicators that the feelings/desires are mutual (the FSU women I have dated have similar notions as well). Whether I, you, or anyone other than the OP defines a value of $700 as expensive is irrelevant.  Was she asking for a demonstration of commitment?  Perhaps. Perhaps she really wanted a "sign" and that is exactly how she perceives it. Who knows? Only her.

But at any rate, as Boaterguy mentions, we're not really talking about a gift here..

Actually, my sweetie bowed out of this some time ago.  But, his point had nothing to do with the cost, or her asking, though he did say the woman has never known real poverty.  His point was about taking advantage of people in poor countries.  This was exacerbated by the fact that when she asked for something, the response was "don't let the door hit you on the way out."

Ladies, if you would like to correspond with each other in Russian, do it in a PM.  Posts should be in English or offer an interpretation.

I had a late night, and my brain was not functioning in manner that would translate that appropriately, but it was very fitting in the moment.  I still haven't thought about it, but at some point, the appropriate idiom will hit me.  You will note in the response, Miss FSU blames both parties.

Agreed as well... besides, this whole inequity/disparity topic as presented thus far seems, at least to me, to be an insult to the decent, intelligent FSU ladies and conversely and excuse for crap behavior and/or attitude of those with ulterior motives or at the very least, wanna ride the visit meal ticket a little..

To suggest, imply, state, assert, whatever, that a woman who asks for a $700 coat just "doesn't understand" something is rather incredulous. Perhaps it could be somewhat believable a decade ago, but now it just doesn't hold much water.  Perhaps they don't completely understand the western financial system, but they damn sure know the value of a buck and exactly what they are "asking" for.  Caveat emptor.

If she had wanted to ride the "meal ticket", the woman would have asked much earlier or behaved in the manner UW know WM expect.  

As for the argument about women understanding $700 (which Mars also subsequently raised), for a Ukrainian, $700 is a lot of money, for the majority, more than a month's salary.  But to Westerners it isn't a lot, and Ukrainians know this.  However, this is not about the cost.  IT IS ABOUT THROWING HER OUT IMMEDIATELY THEREAFTER.  This demonstrates an attitude that is callous and vulgar, and the fact that so many here justify it is not only disappointing, but disgusting.

Yes, but the most that any woman ever asked from me in the early stages of dating (i.e. the first few weeks) was some kind of small souvenir from Canada.

I agree 100% with I/O's response to you.  But, I'd further ask, how many of those women had you been sleeping "naked and practically on top of" for a week?  How many of them introduced you to the most important person in their lives?

Boethius: As for guys going east because WW want to be men, it's a lame excuse they trot out from time to time and IMO is BS. I detected sarcasm in your post and If I am correct..............................

I don't think this is the case for searching abroad, and I disagree with Ken's androgeny viewpoint.  Really, they wouldn't behave this way in their own backyard for a variety of reasons.

Ken, I thought about what many UM would say, and most wouldn't throw the woman out.  They'd say something like "Are you looking for a normal family life?"

From the descriptions in the posts, it appears to me that Nick is not looking for a normal family life.  I'm not suggesting he is a sex tourist, but his approach was bound to produce the result it did, or one fairly similar.

[Misha]

IT IS ABOUT THROWING HER OUT IMMEDIATELY THEREAFTER.  This demonstrates an attitude that is callous and vulgar, and the fact that so many here justify it is not only disappointing, but disgusting.

It is called dating. If you understand that you are with someone and it is not working out, you move on. He has a right to end it, she has the right to end it. If you understand that a woman is not for you or she realizes that you are not for her, it is best IMHO that you both move on as quickly as possible. Why would you continue dating if you know it won't work out? Why would you want to drag it out for a days or weeks longer if you know that there is not future?

[I/O]

KenC: I enjoy “getting you started” and watching the snorting and huffing on the same old subjects. I just happen to disagree with your assessment of American men (In General) and American women more so (In General). Granted, I’ve only observed as a visitor but if you think some of yours are man eaters, truck on down here for a while where the ‘gators look warm and cuddly. Swim in these waters awhile and yours are a pushover. Maybe it is the accent thing?

Having said that, some of it in slight jest, back to my point, I don’t believe the nasty end of feminism has any significant impact on men going or not going to FSU locations looking for a partner. If I am wrong and it does, then they are idiots, more so than I would have thought actually. I’m still crediting the ‘Murrican boys with having some (if diminishing) testicular fortitude and I can quite clearly remember considering an American Woman as wife material very seriously. I think you are way under selling your own.

[KenC]

I/O,
I wouldn't begin to lecture you on the people from your home country, let alone debate your observations.   So I accept your version of the gator women down under.  I think you misunderstand my meaning here slightly.  It is not the political feminism movement that I am speaking of but the diminishing femininity in AW that I dislike.  To be honest, it was never all that apparent until I came to know some women from the fsu to compare.  And there was a time when AW were equally feminine, but it was 50 years ago.
KenC

[Ade]

I/O,
I wouldn't begin to lecture you on the people from your home country, let alone debate your observations.   So I accept your version of the gator women down under.  I think you misunderstand my meaning here slightly.  It is not the political feminism movement that I am speaking of but the diminishing femininity in AW that I dislike.  To be honest, it was never all that apparent until I came to know some women from the fsu to compare.  And there was a time when AW were equally feminine, but it was 50 years ago.
KenC

I realized some time ago that many of the men that make similar statements equate "femininity" with a mixture of subservience, emaciation, short skirts and high heels. Those same guys also tend to equate "feminism" with misandry and lesbians rather than with fairness and equality.

[I/O]

And there was a time when AW were equally feminine, but it was 50 years ago.

I don't do "50 years ago", I'd rather stick with the here and now and I don't think it quite as bad as you'd have us believe. You've got some hot women in 'Murrica too and likewise Russia has its share of Hogheads. 

[Boethius]

It is called dating. If you understand that you are with someone and it is not working out, you move on. He has a right to end it, she has the right to end it. If you understand that a woman is not for you or she realizes that you are not for her, it is best IMHO that you both move on as quickly as possible. Why would you continue dating if you know it won't work out? Why would you want to drag it out for a days or weeks longer if you know that there is not future?

So shacking up for a week with someone you state on Day 1 is "not for you" is now called "dating"?

[Boethius]

American students on spring break - unfeminine?  Androgynous (note the muscle boys in the background)?

[I/O]

(note the muscle boys in the background)?

Ahhhhhhhh no, where? I was somewhat focused on numerous rather cutely formed tits "Pecs" in the foreground actually. Think I counted 7 I could get a visual on.

[Mars]

From my perspective , not taking gifts is rather a matter of confidence than anything else.  I know NO girl or women or old lady who would refuse a gift from dear people. However, women may refuse a gift if they are not confident of the person with whom they deal. 
Mars and KenC, do you think your woman would react differently to your gifts if they were initially as confident (that you would never think of them as  prostitutes) as they were confident after you mentioned the apt owners? I think they would react differently.
I believe (I can be wrong) if something is a matter of character or sense of pride, then that should be stable by nature. For example, if it is a matter of character or sense of pride that I do not pay men for companionship, then I would not do that regardless of how long we know each other. Since your women's reaction quickly changed , it was a matter of confidence. 

How soon a person starts to be confident around new people depends on his/her background and experience. If a woman was never mistreated or called a prostitute after she took a gift from somebody,  then the idea that the giver can think of her as a prostitute may never come to her mind. And this fact does not signify that the woman is lacking character or pride.

Sorry, I don't have a good response to you because I really cannot relate to the confidence idea you expressed.  It sounds interesting, but I just cannot say if it applied to the lady I described.

I do know that my female relatives have at times refused gifts from men they were dating when they thought the gifts were too expensive or too intimate for the stage of the dating.  Don't think it had anything to do with confidence; just that they thought acceptance would send a signal they were more interested or committed than they were ready for at that point.

But there is a big difference between the gift of a heater or other apartment items that will be abandoned if not taken, and a diamond bracelet or sexy undergarments.

[Mars]

There is a bit of difference between the upstream ideas of VWRW and Boethius.

Boethius thinks it was somewhat nasty to discard the gal after she asked for the coat.

VWRW thinks it is good that people be themselves (i.e. ask for the coat if that is what is your nature) so that both parties can find out as quickly as possible about each other; and then both parties can make the appropriate decision as to whether or not to continue.  In this case to discard her.  

Not sure at all if the 'kick out or discard' words are appropriate to what the OP did or intended, but just trying to get my idea across.

And I hope I have not misconstrued the ideas of either Boethius or VWRW.  Please correct me if I am wrong.