Full disclosure by the honorable and idiotic man.

[Jumper]

Canadaman-

my analogy is exactly that, an analogy for those going thru a dating agency.
it wasn't in reference to other methods.

my wife was meeting another man(italian) the day after i met her.
i would EXPECT her to,,she joined an agency afterall right?
and what if it was  just a local man she had already set a date for? that is the same!
because of course she should date until we establish we actually have "anything" at all to pursue.
we traded  one or two  short  emails , a phone call or two, . had lunch, we hit it off, and we went out that night.. that's it.
that's not  a relationship. we simply established that we wanted to see each other again...
she knew i would nmeet someon else,,afteral ldsh ewa smeetingf another msn ? we dint talk mush abou tit,,but it was understood.Complete full disclosure not needed or WANTED.
 and mars point is that is actually the  natural situation in most any normal dating scene.

 There is  a double standard in place .
as often men who simply drop by an agency, or contact a few first from it..
are viewed somehow less noble than the classic WOVO..

ultimately , ,it's simply a distinction of when someone "sorts out" who they will have an actual  relationship with.
they will sort it out in emaiil or phone , and visit one to see if the "relationship"  is "real"

they will meet several,,by the their own means of by agency..
and determine if they want to pursue a relationship  face to face.
(and this can be done honorably ,   
or by misleading with "pseudo" establised relationships))

of course there are  merits ,pro and cons of the various methods !!


but the funny part is oksana smokinhotkova ,,
likely wouldn't be advised that she should  go WOVO..
and a capable smart RW would often have a back up plan.,,
it's hysterical to think otherwise

the difference here is:
she would be given honest opinions ,without judgements,
of the pros and cons of both methods..
but using a  method like "it's just lunch" certainly would be a good option for her..!!
 a quick way to meet men who are single and actually availible to date.



the judgments from *either side*
 are what starts these debates spiraling into the gutter now, for over a decade..

sorry but since 98 i have been laughing at it..
and will continue to.

men and women can abuse the situation.
that shouldn't be startling "news"

they shouldn't
I think most get that! 

The funny thing is those that would abuse it,will justify it, and not change
others may have been completely honorable ,or honest..
and its  a very slippery slope to what constitutes ,abusing the situation ,vs honorable intent.

mars wasn't being serious,, ,
he was poking fun at that.

"that" being-   "where" exactly that line is drawn,,since it such a "judgmental" issue here and on most forums of this nature,.


i' m playing devils advocate , and i am not advocating any method..

any can be done honorably,  or dishonorably,
the people involved know if they are misleading ,controlling , or not (men and women)

[Son of Clyde]

If I remember anything about women, they want to feel special and should be treated  special. It is possible Jim could have met several women he really liked. I don't think one needs to open up so much in the beginning but to be honest if these things come up in a conversation. If Jim were to say he has been single for a long time and wanted to meet several women before he decided which one was right for him, could this have been the better approach? It also goes both ways. What if Jim was not right for the woman? This is something to come up later, not after one date.
I was WOVO and do not think I could have handled meeting 3 or more women on one trip to Ukraine. At least not in the same city. I would have travelled to several cities and spent a week at each location with one woman. To be fair, I would have agreed to meet each of them before forming an opinion of which would make a better wife. You can't discount one because another seems nice. Just so happens I found the right woman for me and went back to visit her more than one time. Some people who preferred the WMVM approach told me I was all wrong in my search, telling me I should have written to 80 women.

[Mars]

VWRW: “However, when woman has asked the questions about what your intentions are, the full disclosure not only makes sense, it is necessary with the kind of women you are looking for.”

BillyB: “Jim or any guy should not be so open in the beginning. There were times I had to give disclosure but only when asked.”

Son Of Clyde: “Jim or any guy should not be so open in the beginning. There were times I had to give disclosure but only when asked.”

* * * * * * * * *

OK, let’s try this. First concentrate on the variable of ‘dating other women.’

Assume all the women Jim contacts on this month long trip (more than just the first 3 already described) ask him the question (during the first phone call after his arrival) about other women in this city.

He is honest and tells there have been and will be others.

What percentage of the women do you estimate will drop him immediately at that point.

In your answer you can distinguish between three different scenarios and give percentages for each scenario.

Scenario 1: His contact with the women came via a dating agency or a marriage agency that was not primarily Internet based.  i.e. there is substantial personal interaction back and forth between clients and agency owners.

Scenario 2: His contact with the women came via a dating web site with no personal interaction between clients and owners.

Scenario 3: His contact with the women came from his sister, other relatives and friends, business associates, personals ads, met them at grocery store, etc.

[XMan]

In the multiple trips I have made, no woman has ever offered me full disclosure. 
Not once. 
Not how many men she was writing, if she was planning on meeting someone else, had just met someone else a month earlier, etc. 
But the women are immediately suspicious, perhaps in large part to past experience with UM/RM/AM, I can't say with certainty.  So I would have to say a large percentage of women expect a man to WOVO and have no backup plan.  Frankly, that seems like an unwise approach to me (for an AM).  It's a helluva long trip to possibly get shot down in 30 minutes and be stuck for 10 days (or however long) with zero to do.  Of course, if you feel extremely confident, then by all means WOVO. 

I once had a woman ask me how many women I was writing.  Before responding I asked her how many she was writing.  Suddenly the question lost importance to her and she moved on to something else.   

I expect women to be writing to multiple men. 
But hopefully not sleeping with multiple men. 
Everyone has their own sense of morality, and that particular approach does not match mine.  To each his or her own.  But I don't have to accept it if I don't agree with it myself. 

There was a question posted at one point, sorry I don't remember where or by whom here. 
It was something along the lines of "if one gave full disclosure about other women, how many of those women would walk if they knew you were writing/visiting someone else?"  At least 50%, IMO.  Perhaps much higher.

I had a woman, who was very interested the first 2 very long dates we had together, walk the moment I told her I could not meet her the next day.  I wanted to see her the following day and the day after, and probably for the rest of my trip as the only woman, but I had committed to meeting another woman on that particular day.  She asked why, I gave her the honest answer and that regardless, because we had gotten along so well, I would like to see her again after keeping my promise with the other woman.  I should point out that both women were in an agency, surely she knew men came to meet more than one woman (a huge percentage of the time, at least).  She was writing multiple men.  (I later found out she had just met a man 7 weeks earlier herself, which she had not mentioned to me at all.) 

I couldn't understand it.  We weren't far enough along to be exclusive by any stretch of the imagination.  I had not come on strong with her, gotten intimate, or anything of the kind.  I was honest about my interest in her, and about being a gentleman and not breaking the date with the other woman I had agreed to meet.  But her ego (apparently) couldn't take it. 

So, my personal opinion is full disclosure at your own risk.  I'm not saying be a slime ball and sleep with as many women as you can get away with.  I'm saying be discreet and be a gentleman.  But again, to each his own.  This is what works for me. 

[vwrw]

What percentage of the women do you estimate will drop him immediately at that point.

I do not know what the percentage would be…but let’s assume the % is high…so what?

I personally do not mind WMVM approach. Moreover, if I was a man, I myself would use this approach. However, I find it irritating when a man attempts to decide for women what is right for them and what is wrong. As it is men’s privilege to decide which approach they want to use,  equally it is women’s privilege to decide  who they prefer to meet….those who come to see only her or those who meet many women during their trip.  To me, by not making full disclosure, when asked, the man tries to manipulate women  and deprives them their right to say “no”

[vwrw]

The funny thing is those that would abuse it,will justify it, and not change
others may have been completely honorable ,or honest..
and its  a very slippery slope to what constitutes ,abusing the situation ,vs honorable intent.

"that" being-   "where" exactly that line is drawn,,since it such a "judgmental" issue here and on most forums of this nature,.


i' m playing devils advocate , and i am not advocating any method..

any can be done honorably,  or dishonorably,
the people involved know if they are misleading ,controlling , or not (men and women)

I agree with these words.

[BC]

Turn the table....

A man approaches 10 ladies, after a quick intro he simply says he's just looking for a good time in the sack.

He'll get slapped twice
Three will walk away shaking their heads
The rest entertain his offer for a good time.

Next night he approaches all 10 again..

'Boy you pack one heck of a smack' he says to the two ladies that slapped him the night before.. They giggle this time around and take up his offer for a round.

'Boy your legs are wonderful! Would you mind walking away again' he says to the other three ..  They stick to their stools and have a nice hearty chat.

The remaining five women he landed in the sack with all slap him when he approaches calling him a two timing SOB.

-------

Another man approaches 10 ladies, after a quick intro he simply says he's just looking for a long term relationship.

All ten ladies will walk away.

Next night he walks up to the same ladies and says he's still looking for a long term relationship.

All ten ladies walk again.

[Faux Pas]

Xman

Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it. IMHO a man (or a woman) has no right to even inquire how many prospects the other has been or currently writing to or communicating with. It's none of their business. Even after both agree to exclusivity with each other, what was done up to that point is still none of their business or any of their business in the future. I would suggest to all men in the game to not worry with or give any consideration as to whom or how many their prospective partner has been on the dance floor with. It doesn't matter. After a mutually agreed exclusive relationship has begun, you still have no right to that information. Even inquiring about it is a sign of mistrust.

I would venture a guess that it wasn't the fact you were going to see someone else for a day and she couldn't handle it. She likely decided that day that she wouldn't see you again in any event. Is this a possibility? There is no shame there. Is it possible she just wasn't into you? It's not unusual that she did enjoy herself with you for two days and then decided that you wasn't for her.

[vwrw]

Even inquiring about it is a sign of mistrust.

Hmmm…Why is inquiring a sign of mistrust? IMHO, inquiring is a sing of curiosity or inquisitiveness.  Suspicion about truthfulness of an answer is a sign of mistrust, not inquiring.

[Faux Pas]

Hmmm…Why is inquiring a sign of mistrust? IMHO, inquiring is a sing of curiosity or inquisitiveness.  Suspicion about truthfulness of an answer is a sign of mistrust, not inquiring.

IMHO, to ask or inquire about past relationship(s) prior to the current relationship shows a sign of insecurity of the relationship. If they want you to know, they'll tell you. In the South, we call it being nosey and it's rude. I would personally be offended for my wife to get inquisitive about my past relationships. It's none of her business. I won't be inquisitive about hers, it's none of my business.

[RussianWind]

IMHO, to ask or inquire about past relationship(s) prior to the current relationship shows a sign of insecurity of the relationship. If they want you to know, they'll tell you. In the South, we call it being nosey and it's rude. I would personally be offended for my wife to get inquisitive about my past relationships. It's none of her business. I won't be inquisitive about hers, it's none of my business.

I disagree. "None of your business" is rude. Keep the best moments for yourself but general information is important. I would like to know why previous relationships were not successful, they weren't as they ended, were they? And it's quite interesting how a person describes his ex. If he says "she was a bitch and I was a victim", I'd be very careful about commitment with this person. Normal people say: "Aks any questions if you want, I have nothing to hide" and you simply do not have any questions after that. This is how we act in the North 

"I would personally be offended for my wife to get inquisitive about my past relationships. It's none of her business" - I would call this insecured 

[Faux Pas]

I disagree. "None of your business" is rude. Keep the best moments for yourself but general information is important. I would like to know why previous relationships were not successful, they weren't as they ended, were they? And it's quite interesting how a person describes his ex. If he says "she was a bitch and I was a victim", I'd be very careful about commitment with this person. Normal people say: "Aks any questions if you want, I have nothing to hide" and you simply do not have any questions after that. This is how we act in the North 

You can disagree. You are allowed to. 

"I would personally be offended for my wife to get inquisitive about my past relationships. It's none of her business" - I would call this insecured 

I would call it insignificant history

[XMan]

Xman

Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it. IMHO a man (or a woman) has no right to even inquire how many prospects the other has been or currently writing to or communicating with. It's none of their business. Even after both agree to exclusivity with each other, what was done up to that point is still none of their business or any of their business in the future. I would suggest to all men in the game to not worry with or give any consideration as to whom or how many their prospective partner has been on the dance floor with. It doesn't matter. After a mutually agreed exclusive relationship has begun, you still have no right to that information. Even inquiring about it is a sign of mistrust.

I would venture a guess that it wasn't the fact you were going to see someone else for a day and she couldn't handle it. She likely decided that day that she wouldn't see you again in any event. Is this a possibility? There is no shame there. Is it possible she just wasn't into you? It's not unusual that she did enjoy herself with you for two days and then decided that you wasn't for her.

Concerning your question, she switched off immediately, and went from wanting to see me the next day to not wanting to see me at all the moment she discovered I was going to meet someone else.  Sic vita est. 

I disagree strongly with the none of your business view.  But again, to each his own.  As far as how many men a woman has written to, I couldn't care less.  I only asked after being asked myself.  But, concerning more serious issues, I want to know what I am at risk for, and certain behaviors often lead to other behaviors.  I want to be with someone long-term who has a similar view about relationships and intimacy that I do (as well as similar life views in general).  Therefore, I would indeed want to know.  If we did not have similar views, the relationship can't go anywhere anyway. 

[Boethius]

Turn the table....

A man approaches 10 ladies, after a quick intro he simply says he's just looking for a good time in the sack.

He'll get slapped twice
Three will walk away shaking their heads
The rest entertain his offer for a good time.

Next night he approaches all 10 again..

'Boy you pack one heck of a smack' he says to the two ladies that slapped him the night before.. They giggle this time around and take up his offer for a round.

'Boy your legs are wonderful! Would you mind walking away again' he says to the other three ..  They stick to their stools and have a nice hearty chat.

The remaining five women he landed in the sack with all slap him when he approaches calling him a two timing SOB.

-------

Another man approaches 10 ladies, after a quick intro he simply says he's just looking for a long term relationship.

All ten ladies will walk away.

Next night he walks up to the same ladies and says he's still looking for a long term relationship.

All ten ladies walk again.

Actually, that is not true.  Through my husband, I knew men in Ukraine who did exactly this.  The line was "Would you like to come to my room for champagne and caviar?"  

The guys were all young and good looking.  Of one hundred approached, one would say yes.  She didn't expect a relationship, only a good time.  In fact, in one case, he fell in love with the girl, but she told me he was good for a roll in the hay, but would be a lousy husband.

Of course, this approach only works for someone with a lot of time.

[JR]

There is  a double standard in place .
as often men who simply drop by an agency, or contact a few first from it..
are viewed somehow less noble than the classic WOVO..

Ah the WOVO....so romantic!

Eh the WMVM....so practical.

[Gylden]

You guys are right!!
If you want to play golf, don't use a baseball bat!! (ah but maybe some of you have tried this and think it works good) 
If you step up to the plate, don't bring a 9 iron!!

I don't think I need to say it, but if you are wanting to get laid, the more you ask, the more you get! (not so complicated really) and if you tell the truth about, it it is honorable :evil:

If you are looking for a wife and you walk up to ten girls and tell them you are looking for a wife, it probably won't go to well for you. The reason is that you will sound like an idiot! 

[Gylden]

On the other hand, if you are looking for a wife and you walk up to ten girls on the street and invite each one up to the room for the night. :evil: Then the next night ten more and so on. :evil: that is when you become the idiot. 

If you have been communicating with a woman for some months who has advertised herself as looking for a husband (assuming communication is possible ie common language skills) and you are also looking for a wife and believe she could be the one (but you must make sure she has a leather mini skirt first and is at least just as much of a knock out as her pictures) and you decide to spend the enormous amount of money it takes to travel to her to find out. Then you organise plenty other girls to see as well because you are not that good of a judge of character and maybe when you talk in person she will turn out to not the same person you thought she was from telephone conversations, emails, chats etc.  You could very well insult her, if you are caught or she develops suspicions and then it could ruin what could have been a good thing! (becoming the idiot)

[Mars]

Gylden, not to belabor this point, but aren't you again ignoring or forgetting that you were just plain lucky in your approach; and now you are promoting this pure luck method as the high road to take?

Maybe you really cannot believe that you achieved something wonderful from blind luck.

If you win the lottery some day; will you then promote buying lottery tickets as the way to plan for a retirement?

Sincerely not trying to be rude or unkind here; but please think about how unkind you are actually being while thinking you are being helpful.

[Mars]

Turn the table....

A man approaches 10 ladies, after a quick intro he simply says he's just looking for a good time in the sack.

He'll get slapped twice
Three will walk away shaking their heads
The rest entertain his offer for a good time.

Next night he approaches all 10 again..

'Boy you pack one heck of a smack' he says to the two ladies that slapped him the night before.. They giggle this time around and take up his offer for a round.

'Boy your legs are wonderful! Would you mind walking away again' he says to the other three ..  They stick to their stools and have a nice hearty chat.

The remaining five women he landed in the sack with all slap him when he approaches calling him a two timing SOB.

-------

Another man approaches 10 ladies, after a quick intro he simply says he's just looking for a long term relationship.

All ten ladies will walk away.

Next night he walks up to the same ladies and says he's still looking for a long term relationship.

All ten ladies walk again.

BC, I guess  no one really expected you to give anything other than a cute and  fluffy answer here.

Cute and fluffy, or caustic and denigrating; never any gravity or realistic helpful analysis.

[Mars]

I would like to know why previous relationships were not successful, they weren't as they ended, were they?  Normal people say: "Ask any questions if you want, I have nothing to hide" and you simply do not have any questions after that.

RW, you seem to be oblivious to fact that experienced persons know exactly what to say to answer your questions in a manner that is pleasing to you.

That is why it is foolish to even ask such questions to begin with.
And such foolish questions are, nevertheless, still rude.

[Gylden]

Mars,
No problem because there isn't any point to belabor. As I never said I was lucky in my approach. I said I was lucky to find my wife. I stand 100% behind my method and would do it again. I think you must not have comprehended what you read.
I will never win the lottery, as I have never bought any tickets or will I ever. The lottery is just for dreamers.
As far as unkind?? Don't really see how it applies here, as it is a public forum to share experience and opinions and as I don't abuse the hidding behind the keyboard approach (calling people stupid, idiot, jacko etc. is rude and "unkind"), just don't see how anyone could make that statement??
Oh and I don't think you are being rude, just you missunderstood.

[Ade]

Mars,
No problem because there isn't any point to belabor. As I never said I was lucky in my approach. I said I was lucky to find my wife. I stand 100% behind my method and would do it again. I think you must not have comprehended what you read.
I will never win the lottery, as I have never bought any tickets or will I ever. The lottery is just for dreamers.
As far as unkind?? Don't really see how it applies here, as it is a public forum to share experience and opinions and as I don't abuse the hidding behind the keyboard approach (calling people stupid, idiot, jacko etc. is rude and "unkind"), just don't see how anyone could make that statement??
Oh and I don't think you are being rude, just you missunderstood.

He's also forgetting that there are quite a few posting here who, unlike him, are happily married and did the non-agency, VO thing so I guess there are a disproportionate number of "lottery winners" on site.

[Mars]

. . . so I guess there are a disproportionate number of "lottery winners" on site.

I would completely agree with you.  And in particular with their zeal and non-recognition of their pure luck, which is of great harm to others.

I have had zero contact with agencies.

[Ade]

I would completely agree with you.  And in particular with their zeal and non-recognition of their pure luck, which is of great harm to others.

I have had zero contact with agencies.

As I have stated on other threads here, although the clever among us can engineer the odds to our favour we still need huge amounts of luck to find the right partner; that doesn't change no matter what method, WMVM, or WOVO that you use. I always thought that it was pretty obvious.

Some people don't seem to be that good at the "engineering" bit though and those people will fail unless they really do have lottery class luck on their side.

[Gylden]

Just a thought, but have you ever noticed that some people just seem to have "all the luck"?