Did you meet your partner WMVM or WOVO?

[Aloe]

What is the problem with "super rich" being a part of a dream man description? Hardly any woman dreams of being poor.
In $200 hairdo, its still me, believe it or not.
Do you think its a 2-way street when a man is dating 5 women? I think thats a 10-way street.
When a man dates a woman, it still is his job to "conquer" this woman. Woman should not have to run after a guy and try to conquer him while he is dating 5 other women. That is just wrong.
My husband is of course super, but he is not super rich, and he doesnt like doing housework, so he isnt perfect I was talking of dating phase, when you are picking a partner, not when you are married, so your "there are lany others to move on to" is completely out of place. When a guy pops up saying, hey ill be in town next month, meeting up with some women, you wanna meet with me? No matter how good a catch he may seem superficially, you dont know him, so why bother competing with other women for a total stranger? There are tons of other strangers around.
Lastly, i am not one of the people who posts 10 yr old 50 pound less photos, cuz i was 11 10 years ago, and i have gained 2 kg in the last 7 years (from 45 to 47), so i have absolutely no surprises for people who come over, looks wise, i am what i am. I didnt post any studio-made photos either, just normal pics. I thought that was what you are supposed to do, post real pics of yourself ? I guess thats just me then eh. You know, the most common request when you get on a webcam with a guy is stand up so he can picture more than just a head Lol. Not very polite, and they have to work to get their wish, but sure is effective to establish if someone is hiding 50 kg gain behind their pics.

[Aloe]

Aloe, your opinions seem to have changed much now that you are married.  Now you are harping on never considering anything but a serious VO.  But here is one of your posts from a few months ago:

where do you see a contradiction? I was pointing out that if you invite every single guy (who isnt planning a VM), only 1 % will actually come over. So ?

[Gylden]

"Or would you prefer he come and meet you in person, along with several other ladies, before making the decision not to choose you?"

This sounds like they way to choose a hooker..
IMO

[Turboguy]

there is always a lot of great guys somewhere around who will come into your life sooner or later,

So, the way I read some of the comments is that some of the ladies are not going to waste thier time meeting a VM man since there are a lot of great guys somewhere who will come into your life sooner or later. 

My take on that is that you have options.  The women seem to want to have options but don't want the man to have any?   Sounds a little like a double standard to me.

[Blues Fairy]

So, the way I read some of the comments is that some of the ladies are not going to waste thier time meeting a VM man since there are a lot of great guys somewhere who will come into your life sooner or later.  

My take on that is that you have options.  The women seem to want to have options but don't want the man to have any?   Sounds a little like a double standard to me.

I doubt Aloe would parade her other options in front of the guy she's dating and thus put him in a position of competing with them.  VM men do just that to the girls they are meeting if they are upfront about their VM itinerary.  

[Misha]

So, the way I read some of the comments is that some of the ladies are not going to waste thier time meeting a VM man since there are a lot of great guys somewhere who will come into your life sooner or later. 

My take on that is that you have options.  The women seem to want to have options but don't want the man to have any?   Sounds a little like a double standard to me.

I don't see any double standard. Aloe seems to be saying that she would meet a man and if it did not work out, she would then meet other men (Aloe, correct me if I am wrong). Similar to what I did: I would meet with a new woman if I knew things would not work out with the last woman I was seeing. It is a lot different approach than meeting woman A and then meeting woman B, C and D just in case that one might be better.

[Turboguy]

Women don't really have a VM option since they are not usually doing the visiting.   If a woman writes one man only there is a serious risk that he may never make the trip to meet her since there are a lot of guys who never do make the trip.   Writing to one man seems very risky for a woman to me.   If she is writing a number of men and decides to meet a guy who will only meet her she may well be meeting Joe in January, Sam in February, Dave and Bill in March and it is the same thing as a man making a trip and spending 3-5 days with 3-4 different women.   If she expects someone to only visit her then she should be willing to refuse to meet anyone other than that one man and I am not all that sure most smart women would do that.

There are cases where two people are not actively searching and come across someone in a non agency/non dating site scenario that may be well suited to a WOVO situation but for those who are looking for someone really special limiting the choices is a poor move.

[Blues Fairy]

If she is writing a number of men and decides to meet a guy who will only meet her she may well be meeting Joe in January, Sam in February, Dave and Bill in March and it is the same thing as a man making a trip and spending 3-5 days with 3-4 different women.   If she expects someone to only visit her then she should be willing to refuse to meet anyone other than that one man

Turbo, the difference is that Joe normally does not know his lady is also writing to Sam, Dave, and Bill.  Moreover, if she hits it off with Joe during his visit, chances are the other three will not be invited to visit at all.

A VM man, on the other hand, will schedule dates with Masha, Dasha and Glasha and visit them all, even if he finds his first date Masha quite suitable and worth pursuing further.  Just to make sure Dasha and Glasha are not even more suitable and worth pursuing.   And chances are, Masha will be aware of his other dates and lose sleep over the prospect of having to compete with them. 

Some smart women are just too proud to endure such a situation. 

[Turboguy]

So you are saying that women have more opportunity to be decietful and to hide what they do.

Actually I have heard lots of guys who cancelled meetings after meeting the right woman.  I did it myself on my trip to meet VWRW.   I had a gal from Ryzan who was going to meet me in Moscow on my way back and I cancelled the meeting because my mind was made up.   Look through the Trip reports and you will find lots of stories of guys who cut their meetings off after meeting the right one.

[JohnDearGreen]

My take on that is that you have options.  The women seem to want to have options but don't want the man to have any?   

The first rule of gambling is to never play the other man's game.  

[Blues Fairy]

So you are saying that women have more opportunity to be decietful and to hide what they do.

You call it deceitful; I call it discreet.  A woman does not have to tell the man about all the other men she's writing to.  And vice versa.  Only men want to "be honest" about their other VM dates and thus clear their conscience (so now the women have to do all the worrying).  

This is somewhat like a cheating spouse who unloads his burden by telling his wife about his affair, instead of keeping it to himself and saving her the pain of knowledge.

[RussianWind]

 If she is writing a number of men and decides to meet a guy who will only meet her she may well be meeting Joe in January, Sam in February, Dave and Bill in March and it is the same thing as a man making a trip and spending 3-5 days with 3-4 different women.   If she expects someone to only visit her then she should be willing to refuse to meet anyone other than that one man and I am not all that sure most smart women would do that.

I think you don't understand how it normally works at the other side. From what girls say I do not know anybody who would be in a correspondence with many men at the same time. Women (except some) do not act that practically as you descibed. Let's say Joe, Sam and Dave contacted a girl. She will like one of them more than others and correspondence with this person will develop rapidly and die slowly with others. She will keep this fantastic correspondence with him untill they meet or he disappears or whatever happens. If things finally don't work, there will be other Joe, Sam and Dave and the same selection. Girls are normally focus on one person.

[Misha]

Women don't really have a VM option since they are not usually doing the visiting.   .

Yes, they have a comparable option. Let's say that John visits Natasha on a WMVM trip and he falls for her. He wants to commit himself to her. Natasha says that she is willing to continue. In the meantime, she will see Karl and Anthony who will be visiting her in the coming weeks, meeting with them, just in case they prove to be better catches than John. I wonder what John would say? You know how it goes about what is good for the goose is good for the gander 

[CanadaMan]

Yes, they have a comparable option. Let's say that John visits Natasha on a WMVM trip and he falls for her. He wants to commit himself to her. Natasha says that she is willing to continue. In the meantime, she will see Karl and Anthony who will be visiting her in the coming weeks, meeting with them, just in case they prove to be better catches than John. I wonder what John would say? You know how it goes about what is good for the goose is good for the gander 

But we all know women don't do that sort of "man" thing right? 

Speaking of which...

When I was corresponding with a woman a couple of years ago (and who I later met), she told me of a friend living in Paris. Her friend had lined up no less than 70 men!
Yes that's right seven, followed by a zero. 70 men.

After one would leave the next would arrive.

Apparently she got tired of it or said what the heck, because she finally married one of them!

I think that will put a lot of what was said above in better perspective.

[Jumper]

 
This debate goes on,  and on , and on ,and on , like the energizer bunny..
 because many of you insist on trapping everyone into one mentality
or try to have some morality debate about when the competition is eliminated in any given dating process.
 
There are RW that are sought after, they have plenty of dates,
both locally and foreign
if you think all of  those RW pine away ,or use their limited  time, in writing to establish a relationship for one guy that
"might" by that 1% that gets on a plane and shows up,,
then you are pigeon holing a group of people with non reality.

some do,, others don't
yes many prefer WOVO.. nothing wrong with it..

other RW , practice meet many themselves!
so  stop trapping the *groups* into some personal view  "boxes" to fit one side of the argument?
(whichever side that may be?)
 

i like the view that because *he* took a plane, he should limit himself to  tourism of Lenin statues only..
umm? why should he do that?
something is wrong with chatting up the bank teller (if he can) just like he would at home?
some are a bit uptight! in their "rules and regulations" on how to properly meet someone.
maybe the fishing guide is cute and smart?
and  she really knows how to fish, (that's hot right?)
 better keep his mind on only fishing !! because he came to meet one woman , and it dint work out! so be noble and don't speak to any other female ! you cad you!
i mean you PLANED to go fishing ? yo ucan't hav eany other "plans" it can only be spontaneous and totally platonic!! dangit!:)
  don't wink at the a stewardess on the flight home either!
ok,, i'm exaggerating..
just don't line up any dates or phone numbers..


Lets try to answer a basic question of *when* it becomes *different*?
, 5 kilometers? 50 kilometers? 1000 kilometers?
or an ocean?

because most of you are making a clear *distinction* of a perceived right and wrong..
 by TRAVEL distance,
. or by length and depth of interaction before the first date.?
and not by anything else regardless the "words* you banter  around.

********************************************************************************
Svetlana (shes from vinnitsia)  meets  sergey for lunch on thursday .he is interesting why not?
she PLANS and also meets  Dimitry on saturday for theatre.

she met him last week, he seems interesting and it's when he asked her to and can meet.
 it's all quite normal dating
yes or no?
certainly as long as the setting is her home city.


ok same scenario,,but she is traveling about 2 hours to kiev right?
next week to meet the same men,.,it's a holiday, so  she has those same  few days off.
she met the both locally or on mamba..
traded a couple messages and maybe a phone call.
and why not? should be fun right?

still just dating.. yes? no ?


same scenario,, but it's prague (they both live there)
and she has the time off work,,met them both on mamba,,
she always wanted to see prague any way and has a visa ,, but its an 2 day train ride,
 or 3 hour flighty..

still just dating ?
yes or no?

so now does it depend on what she told them?
or how long they talked on the phone?
maybe by how many emails traded..
or the actual content of the emails? was it detailed an serious or,
 was it light and flirty?


lets move forward-
same scenario but the men are flying in , ones from Koln ,the other Milan..??



sorry but this debate is more than pointless.. ?
unless  the majority of you can establish the parameters that you are making 'right' and "wrong" implications on?


i still contend the participants know if they are being *fair or unfair*
you can't pretend to not know if you are misleading someone, or treating them poorly..?


In any of the above scenarios is svetlana treating the men poorly?

??? anyone? 
and if so which scenarios is she acting improperly?and why?
 or at all?

but there are a lot of variables at play to determine that,..?


why on earth travel distance should be one of them is beyond me,
 because THEN you are both setting things up to a higher expectation than natural dating.


********************************************************************************


Just for fun,

i'm going to *play* devils advocate with Aloes quote-

Besides you have to know someone really well to know about her super inner qualities that would spark the desire to compete for her. When its just a random stranger, you don't know her, so why even bother competing with 10 other foreign or local men? ? They can have her

right?
(because i'm fairly convinced if shes that super, she is not sitting alone this weekend and i don't blame her,
but then again maybe i'd LIKE to compete for her hand afterall?  because quite frankly, she should have men competing for
her if shes of that high value.. and vice versa? , but   its up to me right? nothing wrong with that?)

but -
maybe you're just curious and would like to meet her ,and she you?
nothing more nothing less..
just that simple.
can you believe?
it does happen.


The same woman that would never compete for a  man because if her value,
 should face the reality that a truly  valued man, has women right now, this day competing for him.regardless where he lives or travels.

if you don't want to face he may meet others in your city,its entirely understandible human reaction...
but you know, that he has women locally interested, and like it or not, you are competing with them.
if he ignores them to WOVO,, that is great ,and he made  a selection.ALREADY .but they were still competition
to ignore that is silly,
 and the distinction of *when* he selects to ignore them and concentrate on only the woman ,  is what is debated..
so it is a debate of when the competition is eliminated..?
and it's because he is traveling,
 as you would  never have this situation locally in dating.
You would either  win his attention while in the middle of others nabbing it..or you wouldn't ,,
and absolutely YES ,this works in reverse as well.


Funny ,
i never would think to demand some RW,, to completely clear  her social calender a week before or a week after ,
because i will come visit?
now it might be appropriate if we have established that,and have a pseudo relationship..!

but not appropriate if we have simply traded formalities and
just agreed to meet and see if we hit it off in person...?
no way. it wouldn't be fair to her. 

that is one huge variable,, and an endless debate over it.
 


 


by the way, if i dint know her,but she seemed a quality person and  interesting,
i'd gladly meet this *Svetlana* in Prague, even if i knew she might be  meeting some Dimity there on saturday..

because she is either someone i *precieve* as worth competing for, or not , its it base??
(as i know she certainly is being competed for locally ,or even if she just visits prague as a tourist right?)

so is this debate as simple as:

 a man "should' compete for a womans hand,!!its accepted ,expected ,
 because that's how things are! and have always been..!!!
(i'm fine with that, by the way ,i dont make the rules , but live by them )

but women shouldn't compete ,at least openly , for a man..


 i think that is FAR closer to the underlying truth behind the stated "beliefs", of the "two tribes"
 than most here will readily admit. 

i 'm not saying its right or wrong, just pointing out this different *standard* is in place,
has been for eons ,and isn't likely to change anytime soon. .

 ten more years of debating it on the forums,, will really make the big difference 
 

The   reason it's such  a *hot* topic,,
 is the uniqueness of the situation allows it to be more upfront and brough
to light that the men in this weird scenario,,
*can* possible be the one "openly" competed for,.,
gawd forbid it goes against every grain of  our social "imprints"
   

it really isn't as big a deal as made out ?
 an econmic and social situation that occurs and throws a twist in the accepted "norms"
and people quickly melt down right and left about it..

because somehow its awful if the long established standard is gone 180 degress.
(and yes can seen as abusive!)

for fun lets paint a world after some rare disease takes out 85% of the male population..
would this be a debate,? as social norms would be that women compete "openly " for men in that case..?
just asking?

and trying to get some reality in  this,,
that most are simple reacting to a long standing socially perceived *norm*..
little else.
and thats ok? we all do!
its how society functions after all..??

[Aloe]

a man "should' compete for a womans hand,!!its accepted ,expected ,
 because that's how things are! and have always been..!!!

but women shouldn't compete ,at least openly , for a man..


i 'm not saying its right or wrong, just pointing out this different *standard* is in place,
has been for eons ,and isn't likely to change anytime soon. .

finally, the truth was born in this argument
and i didnt meet guy after guy like some suggest that its normal, i only met 3 guys over 3 years, plus my husband.
By the way its not uncommon at all to see a topic on a womens forum, that "4 guys say they wanna come over, which one should i meet??"  (little do they know, that probably none of the 4 will come over, but nonetheless it is not uncommon for a woman to try to pick only one guy to meet)

[Jumper]

Aloe-

i think most any method can be done honorably or dishonorably ,

and don't care what anyone uses ,man or women
if it works out that they find each other, someone special ,then how they
 ultimately met isn't too important.

most couples in life do not *plan* to meet thier spouse, they simply do so through everyday life?
 friends ,family ,random chance when in public?
This endeavor , regardless of method ,is odd in that respect

and makng any "plan" would seem a bit strange  to the average person ,
much less the small percent of people who do "plan" bickering about which plan is " right" or "wrong"

[JohnDearGreen]

When I was corresponding with a woman a couple of years ago (and who I later met), she told me of a friend living in Paris. Her friend had lined up no less than 70 men!
...Apparently she got tired of it or said what the heck, because she finally married one of them!
I think that will put a lot of what was said above in better perspective.

I remember the 1st web site I purchased 10 addresses from about 9 years ago. I still have the order receipt.  The web site was onetruelove, which no longer exists by that name, but still has many web sites with different names.  One lady I found especially interesting was Tatyana:
http://www.russianzest.com/ladies/ry1672.shtml
I think she has one older son, now in his mid 20's not mentioned in the profile,  which she indicated was somewhat of a brat, interested only in motorcycling.  Other than the kids, which can sometimes be a problem, her emails and everything seemed very nice.  However due to a scheduling problem, she said she could not visit Moscow during the time I was arranging my first trip, a WMVM, which I previously mentioned in another post.   I eventually arranged to meet about 8 other ladies in Moscow.   At the last minute after my scheduling was done, she wrote back and said she could free up a day or two  to make it to Moscow.  I had already scheduled to meet another lady at that time and didn't want to juggle 2 out of town ladies on the same day, so I relunctantly said I could not arrange that.  I occasionally look at web sites and could list other attractive ladies I have met or emailed, who have spent years looking.  I hear posts about how things are "different" now, and how ladies will "turn down any VM guy".  These are very desirable ladies who did not "sell out" for someone they did not care for.  I think that after 9 years of looking, whether you are a VM guy or not, would not be an issue they would be concerned about.  Maybe the agency profile needs a line for "VM: yes/no".  I would guess the ones which would list "no" would also correlate to a low number  for "Address retrieved".  I will also mention that the first two pictures are 9 years old (not a good thing, Tanya).

[jaygeo67]

Wrote many in UK and Russia.  Visited one in Kiev.  Didn't work out.  Good learning experience, however.  Met a Georgian woman in the USA. Been married for 3 1/2 years and am very happy.  We are now living in Georgia-Tbilisi.   Best of luck to you and happy new year!

[XMan]

Another opinion for the irresolvable debate, based upon personal experience:

Greater than 50% of the women I corresponded with were writing other men.
It may have been 100%.  I only know for certain 50%+ because those are the only ones who admitted they were writing other men and were therefore still interested in keeping options open.  I appreciate their honesty. 

IMO, which is worth about 2 cents adjusted for inflation, the only women who focus on one man are the women who haven't wasted 6 or 8 or 12 months writing or talking or video chatting with "the one" who never shows up.  The others learned that picking a favorite before actually meeting in person was unwise because the favorite may never get on a plane, or if he is 1 of the 4% who actually travel, they may not hit it off in person, or he may smell like a camel, be perverted, 6 inches shorter than he said, walk with a limp, etc.  I don't care if they had 100 video chats and it all went beautifully.  Until the man has his boots on the ground and is standing on her doorstep, she has no idea as to whether he will show up and how things will be. 

I will use RIGHT NOW as a perfect example. 
I have not only been to the Ukraine, I have been to the woman's city before.  I talked to her about things I saw there, specifics that I pretty much could only know by having been there.  She has seen a photo of me in front of a landmark that she knows. 
She still is worried, and has admitted it, that I may not show up. 
So in 2 weeks when I do, she will be pleasantly (so it seems) surprised.
I do not believe she is an aberration. 
And she has met several Americans in the past. 

Tell me she is not keeping her options open, still, right now.  Why would she not? 
WOVO is fine.  I'm doing it.  WMVM is fine.  Someone else said it, and I said it in another thread. 
There are right and wrong ways to do either of those approaches or some other alternative for that matter.
But the idea that somehow the women are "better" because they are always focused on one man is far fetched at best.  Sure, there may be some who do exactly that.  I have no proof.  I do have firsthand proof that SOME seriously write to more than one man, seriously meet more than one man, and keep options on the table. 

[Turboguy]

We have a lot of words and a lot of strong opinions and personally I don't think there is a right answer.  I think it is more a case of what is right for you and what is right for someone considering the circumstances they are in.

I think if you go the WOVO route without a real strong basis for the visit you have a high risk of wasting a trip.

I think if you have someone you have been in hot, heavy communication with then a WO with a backup plan might be the best choice.

If you just have contacts or want to find a woman from the FSU then a WMVM may be the best course.

If you are doing a WMVM and a gal doesn't want to meet you because you are not visiting only her then there are lots of other women who will meet you and you are better off forgetting her.  

Nice post XMan

I think you need to be honest but that doesn't mean you need to flaunt that you are visiting other women.

I think there may be times that meeting 2 or 3 women per day may be the best choice but if a woman comes a long distance to meet you that is a poor way to go.

I think you can't learn much in an hour but you can learn more than you can writing emails for a few months.

I think using video chats may help move you closer to a final choice and is better than just emails but I never tried it to have any experience.

There are lots of methods and lots of ways of going about this and every one of them have people who have found what they were looking for but there is always risk no matter what method you use.  Minimizing the risk is a smart move.

[Dave13]

Turboguy, I cancelled my meetings after I discovered Anna had myself were very interested in each other.

[Gylden]

Sorry, tried pasting in something that wouldn't work..

[Turboguy]

Turboguy, I cancelled my meetings after I discovered Anna had myself were very interested in each other.

I did that myself one time.  I had set up a trip to meet 5 or 6 women over a two week period and was into such deep and seemingly meaningful correspondence with a gal that I started chopping other women off the plans.   With this gal we had days that we spent 12 hours continuously sending long e-mails back and forth.  By the time I made the trip it was a VO.   When I did meet that girl it all fell apart and we spend 10 minutes together and it turned out to be one of the worst trips I ever made.  Actually her name was also Anna and hopefully not the same Anna. 

Hopefully your trip will turn out great and we all wish you the best.   That trip I just talked about was one that soured me on WOVO which had never been my favorite method anyway.

[Gylden]

Regardless if I met one lady or 10 ladies and didn't hit it off with any of them, I would never waste a trip, or consider it waisted.

I concede it is only my opinion.