Split this board?

[Mars]

An open question to Dan and others.

I haven't been around as long as some others, but from what some, such as AJ, have said this silliness with WOVO vs WMVM has been around for 12 or more years on the various discussion boards.

True an exchange of opinions can be initially useful, but not where they go on endlessly.

I think one of the most useful things this board could really use are more honest trip reports.  But I have seen and heard privately that only a very masochistic man would post a true trip report here if he took a WMVM trip.

I never quite understood the extreme attacks on the VM trip reports, until this past few weeks.

Now, based on the ongoing poll of 'Found mate VM vs VO' I see clearly that this board is clearly dominated by the VO group.  This probably explains why it is impossible for a man to post a VM trip report without getting torn to shreds.

True, there is a section in TR for a 'no comments' TR, but people who post TRs really do want to get some feedback.  They just don't want to be massacred.

Aside from TRs, it could really be very helpful for the WMVM crowd to exchange some ideas concerning how to go about it.  But again, those in this group are hesitant to discuss the methods openly because of the extreme attacks that come from the VO group when anything like this is attempted to be discussed.

Further, once a person has been identified as VM, he will be followed around from thread to thread and subjected to constant attack and ridicule, except if he was or is married to a FSUW.  You get to keep your God status.  :-))

I know nothing about how websites such as this are constructed and operated.
But is it possible to split this site in some way such that the VO group can be separated from the VM group and vice versa?

I realize this idea will be jumped on by many as some sort of hidden censorship, but I really don't know of any other way that an area can be set aside for a truly open exchange of VM ideas free from the overwhelming and unrelenting assault from the VO group which have the advantage of numbers plus the virtually unanimous support of the women.

I presume everyone with any fairness at all can agree that simple calls for more civility in the discussions will have zero effectiveness.

[Blues Fairy]

I suggest we spin off a board for defensive people and offer all who are seriously bothered by "extreme attacks" to go there and enjoy themselves. 

[SMS60]

Oh for chriss sakes

Just put the people you dont agree with on ignore. Problem solved.

You will read everything you agree with and feel all soft and fuzzy inside

[Mars]

Just put the people you dont agree with on ignore. Problem solved.

You will read everything you agree with and feel all soft and fuzzy inside

Absolutely not true.  You did not read my post.
Tell me how ignore will solve the two problems I mentioned?

[Mars]

I suggest we spin off a board for defensive people and offer all who are seriously bothered by "extreme attacks" to go there and enjoy themselves. 

Good demonstration of my points.

[Gylden]

Mars,
Honestly, I went through the thread about VO vs VM to see what you are talking about and I can't see what you are talking about. I copied and pasted into a document a few on the first couple of pages. If you want I can post them here, but maybe you can just read through them yourself.
For the most I found mostly VM guys trying to convince VO guys that VO is stupid.
Maybe there is some merit to the VO, if there are so many as you say here with success stories and the FSU women here are saying the same thing??

Anyway just so you know, I personally enjoy your posts, even when we don't agree.
Also from what I have read here for the most everyone says that there is no one right method, just our experiences differ.

Hope the board doesn't split!
 

[Blues Fairy]

Good demonstration of my points.

Which points exactly?

[RussianWind]

I have a feeling that Mars is taking hallucinogenic pills  

[boaterguy]

I have no objections to those who do the WMVM. I would never have found myself in that situation as I was not actively seeking an FSUW. What I have a problem with are the egotistical players that have to bloat about their expoits of all the women they visit! God's gift to earth so of course all these beautiful ladies let him give them a trial run so they can try to hang on to God's gift!

To be honest there are not that many around.....are there? 

[Mars]

Mars,
Honestly, I went through the thread about VO vs VM to see what you are talking about and I can't see what you are talking about. I copied and pasted into a document a few on the first couple of pages. If you want I can post them here, but maybe you can just read through them yourself.

You are missing my two points in the OP.

1) We are missing the benefit of VM trip reports.
2) VM men are reluctant (because of unrelenting attacks) to freely discuss methods, etc.

So it is not the endless threads on VM vs VO that you reference that is the main problem in and of themselves; It is the 1) and 2) that are subsequently stiffled.

Sure it can be claimed that VM men are just weak, but 3 on 1 basketball (counting the females here) really isn't very sporting.

[Gylden]

You are missing my two points in the OP.

1) We are missing the benefit of VM trip reports.
2) VM men are reluctant (because of unrelenting attacks) to freely discuss methods, etc.

So it is not the endless threads on VM vs VO that you reference that is the main problem; It is the 1) and 2) that are stiffled.

Sure it can be claimed that VM men are just weak, but 3 on 1 basketball (counting the females here) really isn't very sporting.

Mars,

I have just spent some time looking at the trip reports (was looking after my last post).
Can you direct me to a thread, where someone has been attacked? (I am really interested)

I saw that there is a place here where folks can post trip reports that no one can reply to. Maybe if someone is afraid of being attacked this would be a good place to report.

I will play with one hand behind my back!!   (basket ball)

[I/O]

Deary me, there has got to be some fun in this one.

Mars for what it is worth, the longer I am married to a RW, the less notice I take of much of the BS scattered around these boards. When I first came in here (and other boards) a few years ago, my fate was well and truly sealed, I wasn’t searching nor was I particularly interested in the searching phase or trip reports. I read a few TR’s which were filled with “glossing over” the facts and anyone who had travelled extensively could have seen through those “glossings” in a heartbeat. I quickly lost interest in TR’s. Other threads are not much different, there is an element of information in each and a whole lot of imagination.

My reasons for joining these boards at the time were to learn something about the next phase (My upcoming marriage to a foreign woman) and to offer something back as I had travelled (for other reasons) far more than most chasing foreign skirt ever would or will. As a consequence of that travel I had probably actually spent as much or more time chasing skirt (As a single man does when he travels) than most will / would anyway and therefore thought (mistakenly) I might have something to offer.

What I learned was nobody was / is particularly interested in other real experiences other than to play the armchair expert role and the vast majority come to these boards seeking confirmation of their own (often way out) ideas. The consequence is I don't take anything on these boards very seriously anymore and often find myself simply making light of something I notice. Perhaps that's not very productive………………………………..

this silliness with WOVO vs WMVM has been around for 12 or more years

Yes it has been around forever in the same way as age gaps and other contentious issues. Nothing will change anytime soon.

based on the ongoing poll of 'Found mate VM vs VO' I see clearly that this board is clearly dominated by the VO group.

Interesting comment because one of my early posts / involvements here was to throw an arrow at the VM crowed and clearly by the response, they outnumbered (vastly) the VO crowed at the time. Change is in the air?

could really be very helpful for the WMVM crowd to exchange some ideas concerning how to go about it.

If you are looking for a free shot, it isn't going to happen because there is no way to go about the VM thing without lying to some extent and as such it is always open to the likes of me throwing up moralistic arguments.

was or is married to a FSUW.  You get to keep your God status.  :-))

Oh for chriss sakes

Second reference to me in a short space of time so one must respond……… :angel:

I presume everyone with any fairness at all can agree that simple calls for more civility in the discussions will have zero effectiveness.

Yes indeed although it has softened somewhat over the years. Gone are the good ol’ days when you could call a b**** c*** a b**** c*** and an r-sole an r-sole.

I have a feeling that Mars is taking hallucinogenic pills 

:noidea:

Mars, Dan and his partners have developed a reasonably good product here over time. I'm sure they would be the first to admit it isn't without its faults but it does serve a useful purpose. Fragmenting it as you suggest has happened already over time and has manifested itself in the form of other boards which IMO are not or have not been particularly successful. Suggesting fragmentation is a much a dream as is hoping for the moralistic r-soles like me to stop throwing arrows at the VM trippers. It isn't going to happen.

Now, if you'd like to understand what the words "Vitriol" and "Attack" mean, go to any RW discussion board and post a VM trip report.

[vwrw]

I do not think that the situation is as bad as you depict it. I only remember two persons (Pike and Albert) who were massacred while they reported their VM trips or shortly after the reports. Others were accepted warmly and even with compassion.

Although they both were intelligent, educated, extraordinary and interesting people, their reflections on women stank. It seemed that their purpose was to demonstrate through depictions of the women they dated that the women are filthy, disgusting, and promiscuous sluts regardless of the social-economic status the women have. I do not think they were massacred for doing VM trips but for the repulsion readers felt looking at the women through eyes of those members.

[RussianWind]

What I learned was nobody was / is particularly interested in other real experiences other than to play the armchair expert role and the vast majority come to these boards seeking confirmation of their own (often way out) ideas.

And men who travel are thinking over how they write these reports even before they get on a plane.

When I told girls about these reports, they displayed a negative reaction. What for? And why with so many personal details.  Who needs these chronological diaries 

[I/O]

Who needs these chronological diaries

Egos.

[BC]

At least it seems we're out of the engagement ring thread stage, that's progress IMHO

I really fail to see how folks can take all this so too seriously, including themselves.

Relax and have a chuckle or two instead.

[Misha]

For the most I found mostly VM guys trying to convince VO guys that VO is stupid.

Pretty much. I just found it odd that some were calling VO "insane" when you have 20+ married members who found their spouse with a VO approach.

[Misha]

Interesting comment because one of my early posts / involvements here was to throw an arrow at the VM crowed and clearly by the response, they outnumbered (vastly) the VO crowed at the time. Change is in the air?

Yes, the times are changing. Twelve years ago, e-mail was just getting established as a means of communication and there were no dating sites to speak of and social networking and Google were nonexistent. Now, Russians are increasingly joining sites such as Facebook and WM are joining dating sites such as singles.ru and social networking sites such as vkontakte. If anything, it will be increasingly difficult to do WMVM trips as women will quickly ask to join your Facebook friends. If she sees dozens of Russian women in your list of friends, she may wonder  That and the fact that women in places such as Russia have heard all the horror tales of Western sex tourists and are not for the most part all that desperate to leave, they will expect much more in terms of courting than was the case a decade or even a few years ago. That and the fact that agencies are losing their relevance is certainly making past experience quickly obsolete.

[sunandsail]

You'll definitely need four boards, not two.

VO with big age diff
VO without
VM with big age diff
VM without

Also, a separate board for purchasing $700 coats.

[I/O]

Also, a separate board for purchasing $700 coats.

and the fact that agencies are losing their relevance is certainly making past experience quickly obsolete.

Interesting comment. Not sure I'd agree with obsolete but I certainly saw a few things recently in Russia which made me feel I'd want to be a lot sharper than I was a few years ago if I were ever to enter the fray again.

[Vaughn]

I just found it odd that some were calling VO "insane"...

Hey, wait a minute - VO are my real life initials. I might be "mad" but surely not "insane".

[KenC]

Mars,
Buck up fella, you're being quite overly sensitive.  As long as you have an opinion, there will be someone here that doesn't agree with it.  BTW, I do not see anyone thread stalking you at all.  Bare in mind that there are avid readers here and if a disagreement with your opinion is lodged in one thread, it is quite likely to be lodged in other threads too.  Prove your points by winning the debate, not by running away.
KenC

[I/O]

Prove your points by winning the debate

Better still, prove a point by presenting factual argument. Winning debate isn't so difficult, presenting verifiable facts often is.

[GregfromGa]

Pretty much. I just found it odd that some were calling VO "insane" when you have 20+ married members who found their spouse with a VO approach.

For the record, just so we'll know for future references. Who were the 20 members again? And while we're talking about records. I said it was absolutely insane for not having a backup plan. A backup plan can be a variety of options not just 5 other girls to visit. How many guys that are new or new here are going to come here and admit they really screwed up by going to see one girl that never showed up? or took them shopping for a new coat and boots 30 minutes after they cleared customs at Boryspil?or stayed on the phone their entire date while eating sushi? or brought along a friend,of course they bought the friend dinner as well, only to never see them again or have zero contact with them after they back for the USA? I'm happy it worked out for those 20. A blind hog will find an acorn every now and then as well. I like the reference that was used about a broken clock is right twice a day as well.

My first time I went to Ukraine, I went to see one girl. Lets call her girl #1. Nice girl, pretty girl, but a huge mistake. First of all the photos she posted were at least 6 years old. I couldnt wait for her to get back on the train to Kharkiv. She was nice and wouldve made a terrific wife. I even went back to see her months later and thats when I met my wife while buying the ticket to go see girl#1.The best analogy I can give is it's like being so pumped up and ready to eat vanilla ice cream for the first time. Well then you go to an ice cream shop and they have 60 different flavors with 100 different toppings and it's all free. Now after meeting my wife, I never made contact with another woman. I knew it was over. Heck I dont even look hardly anymore because I married so far out of my league that I'm afraid God will strike me with lightning for even considering it.

My point is this and while I dont have the hard numbers because there isnt any. This is just my opinion of being around here and over there and involved in this process for 8 years. If it worked for 20 guys, how many didnt it work for? I really really think the numbers would be staggeringly higher.

[Faux Pas]

Mars

Would you care to cite some examples? Most of the TRs I've read where the OP was flamed were large majority VO. Usually the result of some bonehead thought process. But as others have mention if you are going to have an opinion on the forums, prepare to defend it. There will always be someone who disagrees with you. Grow yourself a pair and live with it. This will be the case among VM's if they were to have a separate forum. Same with VOs. The theme of this forum is RW and all the intricacies and nuances it entails. In essence, it covers all such questions.

I've noticed you start a lot of threads on the VO vs VM subject. Almost serially. What is it you seek? Affirmations that VM is "THE" way to go? That it's "okay" to lie? The ends justify the means? Forget it, it ain't gunna happen. From my observation over the years the VO approach has been chastised much more than VM and the VM approach has long been encouraged.

If you are happy with the VM approach, power to you. Stick with it. Many have been successful with that approach. This thread like all the others liked themed will turn into another long winded, hot air debate.