Moscow trip report, I have returned.

[Kunstkammer]

Learn Russian language: SUKA!!  brave girl

I think you mean "суки"  in this case  

[OlgaH]

I bet she is under 25... he should be 40+

she is only 4 years younger

[RussianWind]

Yes Olga, I already scrolled some his earlier posts, thanks he doesn't have many of them. I wonder what happened with the Ukrainian girl in 2008?

[Kunstkammer]

Yes Olga, I already scrolled some his earlier posts, thanks he doesn't have many of them. I wonder what happened with the Ukrainian girl in 2008?

Maybe she had HIV, that was his biggest fear and all.

[OlgaH]

I wonder what happened with the Ukrainian girl in 2008?

I don't  I think it is just obvious that something did not work between them. So what. Such thing happens between man and woman.

[Admin]

The negativity on this forum blows my mind.

judnnc,

I think most folks just want to insure you are going in with your eyes wide open - and, you have something of an obligation to insure hers are wide open as well.

In that regard, allow me to point you to some hard cold stats we developed not long ago. On this page -- http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p18.html - you will see the harsh results associated with people who decide to marry quickly. The 'sweet spot' as it were, seems to be at the 4 month point. That is - those cross-cultural marriages that had LESS than 4 months between first contact and decision to marry (these two demarcation points are important to note), suffer a significantly higher rate of divorce.

As most who have experienced it would counsel AGAINST divorce (it *is* something to be avoided), the facts and stats in this area are, at least, worth noting. I, for one, would never counsel a final decision based on stats - but at the same time, I definitely counsel an informed and aware choice for all parties.

I hope this helps.

- Dan

[Turboguy]

So, either I am an ignorant, inexperienced American fool that cant see what all you have apparently learned, which is Russian women are money-grubbing, visa-seeking, plotting and scheming bitches?

Or did I just correspond with wonderful gal for the last 3 months and take advantage of the time I had with her?

Im not old and wealthy like alot of you guys. I cant just fly back and forth to Russia willynilly on a whim.

Shes coming, she has 90 days to live with me, then we will learn more person-to-person stuff.. if it doesnt work out, off she goes. If it does, and I think it will, then great. Things only have to be as complicated as you make them.

We don't necessarily think that you are an ignorant, inexperienced American fool.  We do think you may be making some foolish mistakes and taking something that has risk built in to an even greater level of risk then most face.  

When IMBRA first came out I was as anti-IMBRA as anyone could be.  Sometimes I see people taking actions that make me feel there was a reason for IMBRA.    This is one of them.   a K-1 visa is not an opportunity for people to spend 90 days together to see if they want to get married.  It is for people who want to get married to have time to make arrangements for the ceremony.  

IMBRA gives you a lifetime allowance of 2 K-1 and requires a waiting period of two years between them.   There are ways to get around this but it does make doing a K-1 more risky for the guy.   If this doesn't work out that is one of the risks you are taking.

Most of us are a little concerned because you have said that you can't afford to make a trip back to spend more time together and that you have a lot of financial obligations and not a lot of disposable income.   Others have pointed out that marriage to a RW can be expensive.   You have a lot of costs ahead of you.  Immigration costs, airline tickets, possibly a car for her and driving lessons and the likelyhood will be that she won't be able to work for a while.  It is going to be expensive for you and you need to use your money wisely.

Most of us are a little concerned because you haven't spent a lot of time with her.  It is really not enough time to really know her.  I had a failed K-1 before my current marriage.   On my first 5 day trip to meet my first fiancee she seemed like the most wonderful woman I could ever have dreamed of meeting, She had a wonderful personality, beautiful, good cook, careful with money, seemed very honest and sincere.   I planned a second trip for 2 months later and told her if that went well we would do a K-1.  She said, "Why wait".   She seemed so wonderful that even if I found a few flaws she was still going to be head and shoulders over any woman I had ever met.   I started a K-1 three weeks before my second visit.

When I made that second visit I saw the other side of her Jekyll and Hyde personality.  One Moscow friend of mine and the wife of one of the members here at the time who was from the same city both had long talks with her and both said she seemed very strange and that I should be careful.  For two thirds of the trip she acted more like she couldn't stand the sight of me and we agreed to cancel the K-1.  The last 4 days she was back to the woman I met on the first trip and we ended up continuing it.  I will keep this short and just say the whole thing was a disaster.   If I had waited to do the K-1 until I saw her full personality I would not have done the K-1.   It is an easier decision not to start one than to cancel one you have started if you have any hopes.

On the other hand my wife was the same person when I met her that she had been in the letters and the same every time we were together and is still the same person.   It is a lot safer to get to know someone better than you do your fiancee before filing a K-1.

From what you have said she seems like a good woman.   The part about her offering to pay for half the K-1 fees is a plus in some ways.  It may raise some concerns about her being desperate to leave Russia and being too eager but all in all I think it is more a good thing than a bad.

One of the things that concerns a lot of us is that she is going to have a big disruption in her life.  If she has to put her tail between her legs and return to Russia it will be hard for her.   That is just another negative of going into things before you know each other too well.  The other risk is that if she wants to be here bad enough she may become a GCG which can create big problems for you,

There is a fine line between being determined and being hard headed.  I am not sure which side of that line you are on but I think you will be doing what you think is right regardless of any well meaning advice here.   I did the same in the past and have been in your shoes.   We just want you to know the risks and we all hope that this will turn out well for you but we do worry about the both of you.   Good Luck

[Admin]

Maybe she had HIV, that was his biggest fear and all.

That kind of speculation is unkind and unproductive.

- Dan

[Jumper]

The new OWW  
Several have worn that label like "The Red Badge of courage"


You do need to realize a K1 , is not intended to use as you are doing,
 and she will need to lie about her intents,as you need to enter the K1 with full intent to marry.
(it is not for  a trial,even though used that way)
with such  a short "visit" , and no follow ups..
her interview for K1 approval could be scrutinized more closely ? maybe,maybe not,
but her answers in interview i would think will  be important.

Did you document your visit together well? it is a requirement.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone doing the interviewing to ascertain if the applicant is elgible for a K1 visa.
what would you ask? (you are looking for intent)
*if* asked why the two of you did not see each other more ( a reasonable question)
she can't answer that you dint have the time or funds..???

 The consulate or embassy staff have a job to do, and one on those is to weed out applicants.
this is *reality* , not trying to be "negative"

 Does she have  a computer at home? can you email/ call her daily?
if so, talk every day.
 if he doesn't have  a computer ,or cell i would buy her both and net service! tomorrow
(some will cringe at that advice! but if you are hell bent to continue onward on this course,
its a good investment wether you ultimately lose them or not)

it is no substitute for you traveling to Togilati to visit her around her friends and family..
but it is *something*

(i still urge you to go visit her at her home city..meet the family,, take in a *bit* of her surroundings,daily life, and culture..)

A year ago you were fine with just a RW to have fun with in ukraine or jamaica,., no long term thoughts needed..,..
This is much more serious.. most here would just like to see you treat it that way, and you don't seem to be.
but we don't know the whole story..

anyway,
I do hope all works out for you!!  
If you are both ready to take the risks, acknowledge them, and plan accordingly for any given outcome,,
 you're both adults! right? so good luck!


The best advice i can think of ?
 do not let a gruff tone delivered here,
 ,dissuade you from reading everything here you can,,
and continue to at least give some though to the advise ,regardless how it is delivered..or wether you agree with it..
it is still worth mulling  over...

[Ulysses]

To Turbo.....and AJ
        Thanks......this is the sort of "constructive" comments that I referred to a few posts ago...........ones based on experience AND a desire to keep the process of the Forum going.   I can learn something from this......U.  

[Kunstkammer]

That kind of speculation is unkind and unproductive.

- Dan

You couldn't figure out it was a joke about his post and not actual 'speculation' ?

His "number 1 concern" was contracting HIV from her.  Kind of telling if you ask me.

[Admin]

You couldn't figure out it was a joke about his post and not actual 'speculation' ?

His "number 1 concern" was contracting HIV from her.  Kind of telling if you ask me.

Kunstkammer,

Humor is sometimes (often?) difficult to interpret in written media - particularly when one skims over things as I have been doing recently. Apologies that I missed it.

As for HIV - that is not humorous in any way, and probably good that our members have a concern for their risks in that regard.

- Dan

[OlgaH]

You do need to realize a K1 , is not intended to use as you are doing,
 and she will need to lie about her intents,as you need to enter the K1 with full intent to marry.
(it is not for  a trial,even though used that way)

How many working American men can take month or two month vacation per year? According to payscale.com average is 2.9 weeks per year for people with 20 or more years experience.

But question is what is better for a woman to get to know a man better: (1) when he comes to visit her for two or three (such a luxury) weeks per year or to live with him during two-three months day by day side by side in his country and in his home (as I would say "to observe his behavior in his natural environment"    )    

[Ulysses]

Why not a tourist visa???   It has been noted here lately that it's not such an rarity as it once was.   

[OlgaH]

Why not a tourist visa???   It has been noted here lately that it's not such an rarity as it once was.  

If it is possible it is a good idea. I think if it would be so easy every woman would be happy to use such an opportunity.
A year ago one of my friend was denied visa without any explanation. She wanted to visit her brother who is living in US. She has her own apartment, job and child but she is divorced.

[Jumper]

How many working American men can take month or two month vacation per year? According to payscale.com average is 2.9 weeks per year for people with 20 or more years experience.

But question is what is better for a woman to get to know a man better: (1) when he comes to visit her for two or three (such a luxury) weeks per year or to live with him during two-three months day by day side by side in his country and in his home (as I would say "to observe his behavior in his natural environment"    )    

Olga, i was merely pointing out the rules of the game,, to judncc,,??
he doesn't seem clear on them?
and needs to be?

I doubt he would like her to answer in her interview ,,
 *I am planning to observe his behavior in his natural envirment*

 i just do not think it will have the desired effect on the interviewing officer.

It really was an attempt to help?
 without outlining " the ABC's,  of how to circumvent the intent of the visa.




i don't really even want to get into the statement he made ,
that he has one days vacation left on the books..
when she gets here he will work most of the 90 days then right?
the time he has to spend ,even in his own country,  is still rough..she needs to adjust day one..
so he dos need to prepare for that , there are things he can do to help?

Recognizing the obstacles,(and yes even their height)  is the first step in hurdling them?

telling him that *jump* is 10 feet, the next is 8  feet , is helping him ? not always criticizing?
its up to him how to take it?

[OlgaH]

Olga, i was merely pointing out the rules of the game,, to judncc,,??
he doesn't seem clear on them?
and needs to be?

I doubt he would like her to answer in her interview ,,
 *I am planning to observe his behavior in his natural envirment*

AJ, I understand.    I don't know how often they ask at interview "Ar you going to marry or what?" I was not asked any such question. But even if she will be asked she can simply say "yes we are". And it would not be a lie. They are going to marry but during three months anything can happen.

If a man and a woman, both of them,  decided to use the time as a trail period and both have such opportunity I think it is better for both of them to do so.

People divorce after two years and five years... after 2 years GC and after 10 years GC...  So, what is better?

[OlgaH]

i don't really even want to get into the statement he made ,
that he has one days vacation left on the books..
when she gets here he will work most of the 90 days then right?
...

AJ, do you know exactly what things they discussed and what things they did not discuss?  

May be they had all that conversations about his job, about his financial status and many other things.

Why there is such need as to suppose that OP or his lady in the state of some kind of (passez moi l'expression) moronic confusion   :noidea:

[Ulysses]

Ah yes......there have been many assumptions in the limited information revealed....and many jumping to conclusions of several sorts...
let's hear from Judncc again.....

[Gylden]

I understand judnnc's point, he wants to spend time with his girl in his own (and possibly her future) environment. IMO this is very important as some have noted here. It helps to better understand both the environment for her and to get to know each other better for both of them. It is logical and very common sensible.
It is just such a SHAME!! that there is no "logic" provided for, in the immigration laws of the US!! (could lend itself to even better stats concerning divorce rates (fewer div.) with some small changes in the law)
I would like to say; it is fantastic to see how this forum can respond to members in this kind of situation. A lot of good points here for judnnc to consider.

 

[Turboguy]

During the interview they quite often ask how much time the couple has spent together.   One visit of 4 days will make them scrutinize the application closer.   I think he should pay very close attention to some of the questions that have been asked in past interviews since I doubt if she knows many of the answers and he had better have a pretty good cheat sheet available for her.  I think he should also pay close attention to the evidence they look at and there are lots of things he can do in the time before the interview to create as strong a case as possible since in reality they won't know each other very well.

Olga, I agree in a perfect world using the K-1 to get to know each other would be a great thing but basically what they are doing is actually visa fraud.  That doesn't mean many others have not done the same or that it may not be the best choice for them but technically it is circumventing the intent of the K-1.  I have to agree with AJ on this one but I do see your point and agree with you in theory.

Going for a tourist visa might be worth a shot given the current high approval rate.

The pluses would be:

She could come for a year not 90 days giving them more time to learn about each other.
She could be here in a couple of months and not 5-7 months.
There is less pressure of a deadline for them
The cost is far less.   I believe a tourist visa is $ 130.00 and no medical required.

The minuses are.

If she was declined it would add 6 weeks or so to the time to later do a K-1
There might be a possibility the declined tourist application might make them look harder at the fiancee visa application.   That shouldn't be that much of a problem.

[OlgaH]

Olga, I agree in a perfect world using the K-1 to get to know each other would be a great thing but basically what they are doing is actually visa fraud.  

Turboguy,

Visa fraud is when a woman comes and sees the things about a man, his home, his lifestyle that she woul not expect and doesn't like but she marries him anyway and then tries to stay in US using any possible way. Or when a man helps her to adjust to a new life, to fell strong and independent and she leaves him after her 2 or 10 y. GC.

Going for a tourist visa might be worth a shot given the current high approval rate.

Yes it is worth. But if you are Russian your salary should be not less than 50,000 rubles (though depends on a person who will examine an application or interviewer), you need to have your own apartment also it is better to have a car, enough savings in dollars in a bank (and the saving should indicate enough long period during which it was saved) and important part to convince US embassy that you don't have any intention to immigrate. And even when people have everything they are denied visa... oh because some interviewer at US embassy are not convinced...  usually it happens when woman young and pretty and it is her first visa.      

[Kunstkammer]

She could come for a year not 90 days giving them more time to learn about each other.

Tourist visa does not allow to stay more than 6 months anyways.

Edit - just to clarify the visa is a multi-entry visa good for entry for one year, however you are only stamped for up to 6 months on a tourist visa at passport control at the port of entry.  Multiple (ie several) trips on one tourist visa, especially after a long stay are given a lot of scrutiny by the border agents.

[Kunstkammer]

But if you are Russian your salary should be not less than 50,000 rubles (though depends on a person who will examine an application or interviewer), you need to have your own apartment also it is better to have a car, enough savings in dollars in a bank (and the saving should indicate enough long period during which it was saved) and important part to convince US embassy that you don't have any intention to immigrate. And even when people have everything they are denied visa... oh because some interviewer at US embassy are not convinced...  usually it happens when woman young and pretty and it is her first visa.    

Nope, things changed a little bit. All these apartments-cars are not required anymore. All they look at is employment. They might also ask about plans for a trip. And I believe if she says she is going to stay with her boyfriend for 6 months she will be denied. But even if she will get a visa, saying she is going on a 2 week trip and then staying 6 months it is not breaking immigration laws "de Ure" but "de facto" she will more than likely not get tourist visa ever again.

We just went through this process in November at the SPb consulate, it is much different, even a completely different form, than in 2007.

[OlgaH]

Nope, things changed a little bit.

Question is how much? A consular officer and interviewer's decision is very subjective. Time to time my friends and I browser Russian forums and people are still  denied visa despite all the requirements they have met.