argueing, feeling crappy :-/

[Seeker]

GQ,

I am not going to lock it - at least, not yet.

I *am* going to tell Eric that he has once again sunk to a level of repugnant behavior seldom seen at RWD. If we start tracking members who manage to ring the reprehensible bell - Eric wins hands down.

To a large extent, this sort of display by 2012 bares a great deal about him, and reflects almost not at all on the party he sought to impugn.

- Dan

From my point of view it has gone both ways... no one person has been worse than another.  But this is not the place to do it.  Just my opinion from reading the thread.  No disrespect, it is your choice.

[I/O]

Olga do we own a vacuum? 

For sure, vacuums are not the only thing that "suck" about this thread.

[Admin]

From my point of view it has gone both ways... no one person has been worse than another.  But this is not the place to do it.  Just my opinion from reading the thread.  No disrespect, it is your choice.

I did not interpret your post as showing disrespect. Actually, I appreciate getting the opinion of someone who is objective, honest, and candid. I confess to being influenced by my previous experiences with moderating 2012's disputes and attacks on other members - which all too often is directed at the person *connected* to the member, not the member themselves. I admit to having a pretty negative reaction to seeing that kind of behavior - and repeatedly.

- Dan

[Vaughn]

In a attempt to get this train back on its rails, I have decided to split this topic, from
the point where I hopped in - and forward....

Now if Dan or somebody could show me how to change the "spinoff" to No Holds Barred...

[mies]

Your husband does not make all the decisions. You both agreed to what is each others responsibilities. This is not a perfect World and there will be critical course of actions needed to be taken that can't be agreed on but it needs to happen. If you don't think your husband is smart enough to make wise decisions, you should not marry him. If he's a considerate man and cares about your happiness, he will probably let you make most of the decisions. Most things in life aren't critical.

Your lack of motivation and/or lack of domestic skills are partially the fault of your parent(s). As you were growing up, they should have made you contribute something back to the family such as helping mother cook and clean. They also don't need to tell you as nicely as you would like your husband to do.

Your lack of motivation and/or domestic skills are partially your fault. As you were growing up, you should have seen your parent(s) feed, clothe, and provided a home for you and out of the goodness of your own heart you should voluntarily help them without being asked.

Billy,

few questions for you:
- how do you know that Aloe's husband is earning "enough"? How do you know that the income he is providing is "enough" for Aloe and meets her expectations? You comment that Aloe is not doing enough, how do you know that her husband is keeping his promises? He promised he will provide her - does he provide Aloe with everything she needs or hopes for? How about those 20 euros she spent out of her first salary? How do you know he is providing her the level she had expected to have in marriage? Should she also make a scandal and tell him "earn better or else!" ?
- Do you think that Aloe's husband is working only because he made an agreement with Aloe or he would be working anyway, at the same job he's working now - no matter was he married to Aloe or not?
- Why you are commenting only on Aloe's parents (this passage in your reasoning is totally inappropriate by the way), and you give no comments at all about her husband being or not being prepared to family life. How do you know that her husband knows how to clean, cook, and take care of the house? How do you know that parents of her husband did a good job teaching him to take care of himself and of household?
- what is so mature about smoothly transiting from living with a caring mom who does all the cleaning - to living with Aloe, who is now required to do all "mom's work"?
- what about motivation of her husband? What about his domestic skills?

Mind - I have no intent to attack Aloe's husband - I'm sure he is a wonderful guy - otherwise Aloe would not marry him. I just want to clear for myself several flaws in your critical opinion.

[possum]

- how do you know that Aloe's husband is earning "enough"? How do you know that the income he is providing is "enough" for Aloe and meets her expectations?

I'm not Billy but I will try to answer.. Aloe's expectations are not necessarily her husband's responsibility.. If Aloe had unreasonably high expectiations of her life abroad, and her husband failed to dispel the common misconceptions, then I can see how their relationship could have gone sour over a period of time.. That said, I think Aloe is too smart to have expected a life of luxury in a small Belgian town, so to me this thread is just evidence that they're still figuring out each others responsibilities and we should stay out of it..

[OlgaH]

That said, I think Aloe is too smart to have expected a life of luxury in a small Belgian town, so to me this thread is just evidence that they're still figuring out each others responsibilities and we should stay out of it..

Possum, I'm with you. "Мухи отдельно, котлеты отдельно" or "Separating the flies from the cutlets".    From Aloe's previous posts  I understand that she knew about the financial situation before marriage. So, I think it is elementary collision of two individuals starting a family life    

[possum]

Possum, I'm with you. "Мухи отдельно, котлеты отдельно" or "Separating the flies from the cutlets".    From Aloe's previous posts  I understand that she knew about the financial situation before marriage. So, I think it is elementary collision of two individuals starting a family life    

I'm not much of an expert in these matters, as I've never been married, but I know enough to know that at first every marriage is like a turf war.. Two people fighting over dominance in the household, trying to get the upper hand and to stick the other person with the most amount of responsibilities.. Because they know that once the roles are established, it's really hard to change certain things.. For instance, a man who has never vacuumed the floors isn't going to suddenly start doing that two years into the marriage..

[BillyB]

- how do you know that Aloe's husband is earning "enough"? How do you know that the income he is providing is "enough" for Aloe and meets her expectations? You comment that Aloe is not doing enough, how do you know that her husband is keeping his promises? He promised he will provide her - does he provide Aloe with everything she needs or hopes for? How about those 20 euros she spent out of her first salary? How do you know he is providing her the level she had expected to have in marriage? Should she also make a scandal and tell him "earn better or else!" ?

Based on Aloe's posts in the pasts I suspect her husband makes less than average money. Aloe accepted that fact and was still happy to have a life with him. If Aloe has a problem with her husband not meeting her expectations, she can come forth and say she's starving and don't have enough Winter clothes to stay warm. Ladies like Aloe and Brave girl are two different RW. Brave girl would not accept a man who makes average income. Aloe would and I don't think money is a problem in their marriage so I stuck with the issues Aloe mentioned.

- Do you think that Aloe's husband is working only because he made an agreement with Aloe or he would be working anyway, at the same job he's working now - no matter was he married to Aloe or not?

Aloe's husband would work regardless if he was married to Aloe or not. The sacrifice he's making when being married with Aloe is sharing what he earns. As a bachelor, he can pocket everything for himself. He is making a sacrifice for a woman he loves sharing his money and the home he earned over time. As a younger man, he probably didn't have a home and thus could provide for a woman at that time.

- Why you are commenting only on Aloe's parents (this passage in your reasoning is totally inappropriate by the way), and you give no comments at all about her husband being or not being prepared to family life. How do you know that her husband knows how to clean, cook, and take care of the house? How do you know that parents of her husband did a good job teaching him to take care of himself and of household?

I did not only comment on Aloe's parents and I did comment on Aloe's husband numberous times. If he read what I said, he would be hurt. I said he acted immature and women should not get married to young immature men. I don't know what the husband's domestic skills are like. Aloe didn't comment on them. If Aloe's husband didn't work all his life and didn't help his parents with any chores during his teen years, I would place some blame on his parents.

- what is so mature about smoothly transiting from living with a caring mom who does all the cleaning - to living with Aloe, who is now required to do all "mom's work"?

If one has skill to clean, transitioning to a job that requires cleaning will be easier. If Aloe's husband never worked a day in his life before marriage, he's proabably not going to adjust well when he does get a job. He may even get fired a couple of times if he's not performing up to the task. Aloe will suffer from her husband's incompetance and her husband will suffer from her incompetance. They are young and have room to learn and grow if they have a desire to learn and grow.

- what about motivation of her husband? What about his domestic skills?

Answered that earlier in this post.

[OlgaH]

I'm not much of an expert in these matters, as I've never been married, but I know enough to know that at first every marriage is like a turf war.. Two people fighting over dominance in the household, trying to get the upper hand and to stick the other person with the most amount of responsibilities.. Because they know that once the roles are established, it's really hard to change certain things.. For instance, a man who has never vacuumed the floors isn't going to suddenly start doing that two years into the marriage..

I have a good number of years of marriage experience so I  respectively disagree with you that it is like a war about dominating position in a family on the base of amount of responsibilities    

I don't know if Aloe's husband was living separately from his parents before marriage and for how long  and how many times he vacuumed the floor.    I don't know if they discussed prior marriage all the issues about housework and if Aloe honestly said him:  

When i lived with my parents before this, ive never done any housework, now that may be an excuse, but im just saying its not always obvious to me when something "needs" to be done.

For a woman who never shared a "burden" of housework in her parent family of course it is very frustrating when she starts her own family.

If Aloe's husband was "warned" by Aloe about all that housework she never done before he should of course be ready for it.  

"Flies and cutlets"

Though they both knew about their financial situation the annoying flies of financial discomfort (when desires don't coincide means)  will fly around.  It is inevitable. The most important part is not to let them to propagate putting eggs on the cutlets  

"Cutlets and responsibilities"

Who earns the money to buy meat for cutlets?
Who goes to a store to buy meat for cutlets?
Who choose the meat for cutlets?
Who grounds the meat for cutlets?
Who makes the cutlets?
Who washes the dishes after?

That's what needed to be resolved and compromised  
    

[possum]

I have a good number of years of marriage experience so I  respectively disagree with you that it is like a war about dominating position in a family on the base of amount of responsibilities    

I didn't mean that literally, Robert..

[OlgaH]

I didn't mean that literally, Robert..

My apology  if I misunderstood something in you previous post.

Robert as I also had 13 years of marriage experience before we got married so we actually have never had such problems. More over I known things about housework since my childhood and I have good examples how it should be shared from my family Probably that's why even during my first marriage I did not experienced such big problems regarding housework.  

[possum]

My apology  if I misunderstood something in you previous post.

Robert as I also had 13 years of marriage experience before we got married so we actually have never had such problems. More over I known things about housework since my childhood and I have good examples how it should be shared from my family Probably that's why even during my first marriage I did not experienced such big problems regarding housework.  

By turf war I meant a subtle process of dividing responsibilities between spouses as their marriage progresses, by which they hope to avoid activities they're least comfortable with, replacing them with those they're good at or at least those the other spouse despises even more.. Not everything can be discussed and agreed upon before the marriage..

[Boethius]

I don't think it is the cleaning that is the issue here.  That is the secondary issue, which is easily resolved.  The issues here are the threats of divorce, or "not wanting to continue".  That is manipulation by Aloe's husband, whether intentional or not, and it is not a good sign.  It says something about his character, or lack thereof.  His comments about my money are troubling as well. 

Aloe, there is nothing wrong in seeking counselling.  It is not about having someone else work out your problems, only you can do that.  But it does help sometimes to have someone removed from the problem identify trigger points each of you have.  You can change behaviours, but it generally takes a concerted effort.

[mies]

I'm not Billy but I will try to answer.. Aloe's expectations are not necessarily her husband's responsibility.. If Aloe had unreasonably high expectiations of her life abroad, and her husband failed to dispel the common misconceptions, then I can see how their relationship could have gone sour over a period of time.. That said, I think Aloe is too smart to have expected a life of luxury in a small Belgian town, so to me this thread is just evidence that they're still figuring out each others responsibilities and we should stay out of it..

This is exactly the point I was making. Why if we talk of husband's performance - any income is "enough", and everything above his abilities is called "unrealistic", and when we are talking about wife's performance - she must go above and beyond, else- she will be called lazy, unmotivated, and "not meeting her contractual marriage obligations"?
Husband is going every day to work - fine, Aloe is also doing housework regularly. But I bet her husband isn't rich, so he isn't an "excellent provider", and quite likely - Aloe would be glad if he were earning more. Then - why her wishes are called "unrealistic expectations", and his demands of "excellent housework" are fully justified?

I'm not much of an expert in these matters, as I've never been married, but I know enough to know that at first every marriage is like a turf war.. Two people fighting over dominance in the household, trying to get the upper hand and to stick the other person with the most amount of responsibilities.. Because they know that once the roles are established, it's really hard to change certain things.. For instance, a man who has never vacuumed the floors isn't going to suddenly start doing that two years into the marriage..

it had never been an issue between me and my husband

[mies]

Aloe's husband would work regardless if he was married to Aloe or not. The sacrifice he's making when being married with Aloe is sharing what he earns. As a bachelor, he can pocket everything for himself. He is making a sacrifice for a woman he loves sharing his money and the home he earned over time. As a younger man, he probably didn't have a home and thus could provide for a woman at that time.

And how much exactly is that?
(i do not really want to hear the number - i just want you to keep it in mind when you are talking of "sacrifice").
If her husband continued to live with his parents - then he could pocket the money. If he decided to rent an apartment, maybe with a roommate - he would unavoidably have to clean/do his part of housework, and he would pay the rent. What are Aloe's "variable cost" to her husband? How much electricity and food she consumes monthly? I do not believe it is much. Otherwise - her husband would not be able to afford it.  My random guess - it's about the price of few dinners out, or some apparel.  

Thank you for your reply and the dialogue, Billy

[Sculpto]

wow.. now it comes down to dollars and cents... if a guy has to support his wife he is owed everything.  Brilliant.

If a man wants a maid he should just get a maid.  If he wants a whore he should just get a whore.  If he wants a wife to share his life with.. then he needs to understand that she has feelings and needs and emotions.  If he is incapable of doing that and wants a whore/maid who will follow him around and take orders and be ready to polish his machinery whenever he wants.. he better be damn rich or go to find his wife from some country where such behavior is acceptable.  I don't think there are many women in the FSU that would fit that mold that are under 35.

June Cleaver is extinct.

[Misha]

If he wants a wife to share his life with.. then he needs to understand that she has feelings and needs and emotions.

And, if she wants a husband to share her life with, then she needs to understand that he has feelings and needs and emotions.

As I have been saying all along, both sides must respect the needs and feelings of the other.

[Sculpto]

And, if she wants a husband to share her life with, then she needs to understand that he has feelings and needs and emotions.

As I have been saying all along, both sides must respect the needs and feelings of the other.

I have been saying the same thing Misha.. you took my quote out of context.

[OlgaH]

By turf war I meant a subtle process of dividing responsibilities between spouses as their marriage progresses, by which they hope to avoid activities they're least comfortable with, replacing them with those they're good at or at least those the other spouse despises even more.. Not everything can be discussed and agreed upon before the marriage..

To avoid activities they're least comfortable with? It is an illusion and people with such illusion are not ready for living together  

I agree that it is not possible to discuss everything before marriage but elementary views on life together can be discussed prior,  and  many many things will appear only during life together and that things will be more serious than "who should vacuum the floor, how often the floor should be vacuumed and should be corners also cleaned every time when you vacuum the floor ".  

I don't try to justify Aloe's husband behavior. But I also would not put all the fault on him . Could be there such possibility as Aloe did not hear her husband during their previous conflicts about the same thing? Probably.  

[SMS60]

House work and cleaning should be exciting and fun

[Shadow]

Aloe I have not read the full thread, but do not give up.
Remember that December is a very expensive month for many people, meaning that January can be a real problem to manage the money and make it through the month.

You have to communicate to solve the problems, and where he may rather keep silent you should feel when something is bothering him. If you can do anything about it, do so. If you can not, make it clear that your target is happiness for the both of you.

Do not worry about 'getting back to how it was'. Life changes, but that should make the bond stronger.

[Ronnie]

So what do you do if you have a fight with your spouse and you realize that you dont feel the same about your marriage anymore? Yesterday i had a big fight with my husband, about the same thing, stupid housework, i dont clean enough, so yesterday he threatened me with a divorce unless i go vacuum immediately. In my book, that is not something you say to someone you love. I went and vacuumed, while despising myself for submitting to this kind of blackmail. We made up yesterday, but i cant help feeling so much differently about our marriage now. I do not feel safe with him anymore, i do not have a feeling that if something happens he will be there. I do not feel that he is the closest person on earth to me anymore... This is so devastating.. I just wanna go back to the way things were, we are always so happy. But he never ever tells me if something is bothering him, he always keeps it in until he blows up, so every time it happens for me its completely out of the blue cuz i go around thinking he is happy, and every time he blows up, i cant help thinking that he is unhappy and im an idiot for not seeing it. And after that phrase yesterday, i feel that he doesnt care about me that much, because he said something so awful. Nobody in this world needs or loves me, only my parents. How can i feel safe with someone who can turn around and file for divorce and kick me out, out of the blue while im thinking that we are doing good? How can you even love someone if you say such things to them? How can you be their closest person if they never tell you when something bothers them? I feel so disappointed and very very very very sad about my newfound feelings

The theme here is a familiar one to many of us.  I want to validate your feelings, Aloe.  You can't feel close and give your heart and soul to someone who will so freely use it as a club to beat you with.  What he (or she) who plays this game doesn't understand is what it does to the relationship.  The relationship will eventually die.  It will die a death of 1,000 cuts.  Each time this club it used you silently withdraw into a protective shell.  Who can trust a partner who will be quick to walk out?  Who can love someone who cannot be trusted.  And so, the love withers and dies.  Making up  is only temporary make up on a wound that never fully heals.

If any man or woman reading this story of Aloe's finds that they are in a marriage or relationship where such threats are made, you need to have a heart-to-heart talk with the offender.  If you are the offender, then don't be surprised one day when you find your partner responds with, "You want a divorce?  Okay, are you going to file the papers or shall I?"