Russian Soul..what is it?

[OlgaH]

As I mentioned before the term Soul or Spirit of a nation is not a Russian intellectual invitation . The term you can find in the work by European thinkers. The term spirit of a nation in the works by Voltaire and  Montesquieu is actually a term culture.

Oswald Spengler in his work “The Decline of the West” in his theory of culture and civilization conjectured that culture is a soul of civilization.

 “Conversely a civilization dies if once this soul has realized the complete sum of its possibilities in the shape of peoples, languages, creeds, arts, states, and sciences, and thereupon goes back into the primitive psyche from which it originally emerged”

How close the terms ”soul of a nation”, “culture” and "mentality" between themselves?

The term mentality as a way of thinking, perception of the world and spiritual mood inherit in an individual or in a group appeared in the West intellectual works in 20th century as an identification of consciousness with intellect. In the Culturology Dictionary’s summary  of use of the term mentality in Russian culturology, philosophy and also social and political essays the term mentality is a characteristic of national peculiarities or peculiarities of culture as a display of a many-sided and complicated process of psychological activity that includes both conscious and unconscious, specific correlation between emotional and rational, and also peculiarities of a way of thinking of a national-ethnic group towards a community in whole  between  aspiration for innovations and preserving the cultural potential of the past. Mentality is a world outlook matrix.

Cultural mentality is underlying structure of a culture that historically and socially rooted in consciousness and behavior of many generations of people combining different historical epochs during the developing of national culture.  

American anthropologist and cultorologist  Alfred L. Kroeber  defined the term culture as a schematized and modeled way of thinking transmitting mainly through symbols that present itself in people’s achievements including incarnation of that achievements in historically selected and transmitted ideas with associated with that ideas valuables and material works (for example works of art).
In Edward Burnett Tylor’s understanding the culture is a complex of knowledge, believes,  arts, traditions, morals  laws …

Actually culture is accumulation of experience and knowledge of  mankind or particular nation encoded in the symbolic systems, implements and means and transmitted from generation to generation and of course it is undergoing through the process of modification and perfection.  

Culture originally  is from Latin word cultura that means “to cultivate”

Every nation has its own identity. And during its formation the process of modification under influence of different factors is inescapable but only on the basis or cultural archetypes – the basis elements of culture that form the constant models of the spiritual life.  
The very beginning of the ethnology as science we can notice in the works by Herodotus about the traits of a nation, the nation's customs, morals and manners and geographical location.
 
You can look for the Human geography and the Cultural geography, the sub-field. The idea of the influence of geographical location and climate on the formation of a national identity is still topical.
"The spirit of a nation is determined by geographic and climatic particularities; it exists in time, and necessarily percurs the development of a particular principle, and therewith the development of a particular consciousness and reality,--it has an internal history" (John Bernhard Stallo, a German-American academic, jurist, philosopher, and ambassador).

“Just like the individual spirit, so the spirit of a nation has specific traits in every single entity, and it can be discerned in all its acts. In art and crafts, in customs and laws, in the education and upbringing of children, in the knowledge of the divine and in the religious worship – in all acts in peace and war, in all its periods and vicissitudes, a nation could always be distinguished from other nations. It is though true that sometimes it is difficult – und much understanding would be necessary to discover the relationship between this spiritual phenomena, their value and their interconnections”.  (Nachman Kohen Krochmal,  a Jewish Austrian philosopher, theologian, and historian).

[Shostakovich]

 SHOST, PHILOSOPHY ISN'T A HOLLYWOOD MOVIE WITH A HAPPY END, WHERE THE GOOD GUYS BEAT THE EVIL. WHERE YOU GET ALL THE ANSWERS.

BERDYAEV FOCUSES ON THE, SO TO SPEAK, "SUBTLE VIBRATIONS" OF THE PROCESS, CALLED LIFE, AS WELL AS PERSONALITY.

PHILOSOPHY ISN'T A TOURIST EXCURSION, ITINERARY,ETC. PHILOSOPHY IS ABOUT ANALYSIS OF LIFE, ITS DEPTH, MYSTERY-- WHICH WILL NEVER BE SOLVED.

IF YOU DID NOT SUSPECT, FOR SOME PEOPLE LOVE IS A MYSTERY, RELIGIOUS BELIEF IS A MISTERY, HUMAN'S INNER WORLD IS A MYSTERY. SCIENCE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO GIVE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS OF OUR BEING.

 ACCORDING TO BERDYAYEV, THE MYSTERY OF A PERSONALITY WILL NEVER BE EXPLAINED.THE PERSONALITY OF A HUMAN BEING IS MORE MYSTERIOUS THAN LIFE ON THE WHOLE.

AT THE SAME TIME, A HUMAN PERSONALITY IS A MICROCOSM , AND CONTAINS EVERYTHING AND ALL.

 SOUL IS "LYING" MUCH DEEPER IN THE " STRUCTURE" OF A HUMAN BEING, AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WRETCHED BEHAVIORS OF LADIES THAT YOU CAME ACROSS," WHO ASK FOR MONEY", "HAVE ENTITLEMENT ATTITUDE", ARE GOLD DIGGERS, ETC. ALL THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE SOUL.
 

Lud,

First off, thanks so much for the clarifying remarks.  It was indeed a pleasure for me to learn that philosophy is not a Hollywood movie.  I seen a few movies in my time.  Forest Gump told me that 'Life is like a box of chocolates' and I suppose that's kind of philosophical.  Darn right, you just never know what you're gonna get!  So maybe a Hollywood movie is like philosophy.  Well, it's just too big for my little head, that's for sure.  Mostly I just keep tellin' folks where the pickle-lilly and catsup is so they can dress up their burger like they like and everyone seems to go away happy.

I like a good mystery!  Some feller I was a-readin' just yesterday was yammerin' all about it, talkin' crazy: "And he who would not languish amongst men must learn to drink out of all glasses; and he who would keep clean amongst men must know how to wash himself even with filthy water".  Well, OK, whatever, blah-blah-blah.  Then he goes on to say that "Alas, there are so many great thoughts that do nothing more than the bellows: they inflate, and make emptier than ever".  Ooo-Weee, whaddya think that Bedradevil would have to say to that?!  Hunh?  Like I say, it's all too complicated for me.  As for science, well what I know is that when I pull the handle on my milkshake machine, I get a milkshake.  You got your chocolate and you got your vanilla but once in a while we throw some strawberry in there.  Personally, I don't like it as it all smells like that goo the chemical works throw into the river but the customers seem to like it.  I don't know, I don't know - it all just makes my head spin.  What does that joker I was readin' have to say?  "And others are like eight-day clocks.  In these I have mine amusement for I wind them up with my mockery and watch them whirr thereby". 

Anyway, here's a little ditty for ya:



 

[Ludmila]

Shost, thank you for the song, I love country music, too. It's simple, understandable,  and not heavy for perception.

I would hate to impose any ideas on anybody.

I respect you, what you do for living,  your effort to live this life the way you can,  and your way of  understanding  life-- what it is all about-- the way you do.

And, of course, I hope you live in harmony with yourself. I only wish you the best.

[Shostakovich]

Hello Lud,

Glad you liked the tune.  Roots country, as opposed to that dreary 'young country' does have a wonderful simplicity and innocence.  It may be the first ingredient of great music, unfortunately it only goes so far.  Life is not simple and requires more than a simple song.

Hardly anyone lives in harmony with themselves, it's why they keep looking for completion - for a RW perhaps: good luck in finding the completion they seek there.

[Blues Fairy]

ACCORDING TO BERDYAYEV, THE MYSTERY OF A PERSONALITY WILL NEVER BE EXPLAINED.THE PERSONALITY OF A HUMAN BEING IS MORE MYSTERIOUS THAN LIFE ON THE WHOLE.

Berdyaev has not seen the latest research on human emotional mechanisms (or on "life of the whole", for that matter ).  The formation of personal traits can be perfectly traced to early development; emotional responses begin to form and manifest themselves as early as 6 months - and they are greatly influenced by the style of parenting.  A person's character is a product of his/her genes plus, of course, family upbringing and education; how landscapes and the elusive national "soul" figure into the equation I fail to see.  And I have yet to see one common-sense, scientific explanation of how a group of people totally unrelated to each other except that they live in one country may have any commonality of psychological traits - I'm not talking about cultural customs here. 

[OlgaH]

And I have yet to see one common-sense, scientific explanation of how a group of people totally unrelated to each other except that they live in one country may have any commonality of psychological traits - I'm not talking about cultural customs here. 

In analytic psychology it calls the collective unconscious. What works have you read on the the collective unconscious and human geography? 

[Blues Fairy]

In analytic psychology it calls the collective unconscious. What works have you read on the the collective unconscious and human geography? 

I was asking for a scientific proof, can you present one?  In your own words, please, without piling up links and names and asking condescendingly if I have read any of them. 

[OlgaH]

I was asking for a scientific proof, can you present one?  In your own words, please, without piling up links and names and asking condescendingly if I have read any of them.  

Blues Fairy, it is the second time when I ask a simple question "What works have you read" and the second time you can not give a simple answer  

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9632.msg185505#msg185505

Reminds me a situation with one of my high school students.

"I don't like Dostoevsky." "What do you not like about Dostoyevsky and/or his works?" and the student was in the total prostration to give an explanation.  

Just a rhetorical question... Why I should not mention any names?  :noidea:

Never mind  

[Shostakovich]

Holy smokes it's heatin' in here.

Psychology is a science?  Maybe it will one day be.  In any event.  If something happens you can make a science out of it.  But it is important to remember, as Lud has pointed out, that science too has its limits.  This is not a mystical reactionary stance.  Read Irwin Schroedinger's 'What is Life' if you want the skinny.  Science may well engineer a living flower but will never explain what life is for.  My sense is that science is running out of gas.  Fundamentally, people want experiences not explanations.  You can map the brain, and note all the transformations therein, but in so doing, will never experience the color blue just the way that brain does.  At the core of life stands a mystery.  I am going with the notion that our experience opens that mystery not a microscope. 

[Blues Fairy]

Blues Fairy, it is the second time when I ask a simple question "What works have you read" and the second time you can not give a simple answer  

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9632.msg185505#msg185505

Reminds me a situation with one of my high school students.

"I don't like Dostoevsky." "What do you not like about Dostoyevsky and/or his works?" and the student was in the total prostration to give an explanation.  

Just a rhetorical question... Why I should not mention any names?  :noidea:

Because the question is arrogant (sounds like "first tell me what you read and then I'll talk to you"), and because if you cannot explain and argue about a concept in your own words, then chances are, you don't know what you are talking about. 

I did read the Jungian theory about collective unconscious, a while ago, but as I remember, it had more to do with race memory (from the analysis of dreams) and not with any particular national character (Russian etc).  One could very well argue that common interpretation of archetypal symbols might have more to do with a shared ancestral language rather than common psychological traits.  All our languages spring from a tree rooted in a few pra-tongues (I'm sure Sandro can throw in a map or two ) Of course, doubtless, our mind is shaped by the language we speak.  But there's nothing unconscious about it - language has more to do with the powers of abstract thinking; and nothing particularly national, for that matter.

[OlgaH]

Because the question is arrogant (sounds like "first tell me what you read and then I'll talk to you"), and because if you cannot explain and argue about a concept in your own words, then chances are, you don't know what you are talking about. 

Blues Fairy, I'm sorry that my simple question put you in such defensive position that you accuse me in arrogance, and inability to argue.

My sincere apology and sympathy to you 

 

[Blues Fairy]

Blues Fairy, I'm sorry that my simple question put you in such defensive position that you accuse me in arrogance, and inability to argue.
My sincere apology and sympathy to you

Defensive?  Oh please.  I only asked you to do me a favor and speak in your own words, concisely and clearly  - a simple sign of respect to your opponent on a public forum.  I am perfectly willing to continue the conversation, but I will not be patronized, Olga.

[IAmZon]

My mastery of Russian consists in only watching Doctor Zhivago 3 xs; reading several history books; and dating a few girls - not very seriously.  So, take this for what it is worth

When the term "Russian Soul" has been expressed to me, I understood it to mean a cultural propensity to tolerate hardship and disappointment STOICALLY ( "In a stoical manner; ability to suffer pain and hardship without showing feeling or complain." )  To be without a sense of entitlement.  To be distrusting of governments and institutions.  To be private and desire a low public profile.  I presumed this to be a function of the Russian history and current affairs.

When I have the read the term here and in "MOB propaganda,"  I took it as a grain of salt .... like all Italians a great lovers; all Germans are great mathematicians; all Swiss are organized; etc...

[OlgaH]

My Russian history book tells me that this can be understood from the geogrpahy. 

Shostakovich,

The study of geography and climate influence on formation of the national characteristics both anthropological, cultural and psychological really interesting. There is also interesting works on relations between geography and psychology. 

Some scholars in their works point out that the sense of collectivism prevails over sense of individualism in Russians and  so called Sobornost  (spiritual community of many people living jointly) as also one of distinctive features.

To survive people really needed to create joint communities. It could be explain by instinct of self-preservation. As Carl Jung was mentioned his hypothesis (as he said in his work) of collective unconsciousness  based on his empirical researches  and clinical observations  could be also interesting in this aspect.  As he supposed the instincts are close to archetypes and give a reason to consider that the archetypes are unconscious model of instincts or model of instinctive behavior. That archetype of collectivism very well was displayed  during totalitarian regime. When whole country was living under slogan "If you are not with us you are against us" and mass blaming of dissidents.

Of course it is just a supposition   

[OlgaH]

Shostakovich,

here is an interesting observations 

http://www.eastwestreport.org/articles/ew06408.htm

[IAmZon]

mildly interesting .... http://www.eastwestreport.org/articles/ew06408.htm

But when I ran into the word "MINISTRY,"  I felt my interest fade. 

The presumption at work in that word is hard for me to get my mind around

[OlgaH]

When I have the read the term here and in "MOB propaganda,"  I took it as a grain of salt ....

Yes, rivardco the term is very commercialized - Russian women with Russian soul full of mystery.

Walter Schubart, a German philosopher, noticed in his work "Europe and the Soul of the East" that different nations gave different human ideals. Hindu gave ideal of ascetic, Chinese - of  wise man, German - of a soldier.... and Russia - of a woman...    

Of course a woman. What else it can be.  I guess it is due to the cult of God Rod (creator of the Universe)  and his co-creator Rozhanitsa aka Bereginya (a home and family keeper) The word Rod means clan, birth. Rozhat' - to give birth. So through all the time the cult still exist though of course not without modifications but still with all that "mythology" you can read on MOB websites    

[OlgaH]

rivardco just abstract your mind from MINISTRY and look at this like at observation by a regular foreigner. 

[OlgaH]

For people who are interested in business in Russia probably would  be helpful some works by Geert Hofstede
http://www.geert-hofstede.com/

He actually showed how that archetypal collectivism hurts business in Russia when logic and rationalism is not taken into account and one of the several problems due to that is lack of responsible employees and workers.

[Shostakovich]

Shostakovich,

The study of geography and climate influence on formation of the national characteristics both anthropological, cultural and psychological really interesting. There is also interesting works on relations between geography and psychology...

Yes, yes, a very interesting debate indeed.  So OlgaH, you want me to step into the cat-fight you are having with BF?  Is it safe?    This notion of soul is clearly not scientific and so clearly it's not possible to have a precise conversation about it.  This, however, does not obviate its utility.  Soul to me means that a person comes into the world with a certain bias towards behaviors, values etc.  I don't accept the tabla rasa/random model for the world.  It is not what I observe.  The concept of soul seems to have certain validity as it models certain phenomenon.  As with all philosophical concepts it serves as a placeholder until material proof can be managed.  If people come into the world to do certain things do countries also?  This seems a little tenuous as the notion of a country is artificial whereas a person has discrete boundaries.  When you step across the boarder from France to Switzerland you don't encounter a new soul.  Certainly the notion of collective influence is important.  Yes, if one is exposed to a set of historical influences/geography/people/office/sounds/whatever it will have its affect on the mind.  Naturally, if people's lives are exposed to the same influences it biases them in their emotional life in similar ways creating Jung's collective unconscious.  It means there are shared emotional patterns within people from different regions. But this is where we can draw the line between conditioning and the innate nature, or soul a person has.   And this too has its limitations as the generalization only extends so far.  Some have robust minds, others follow the crowd.  Even within a region not all will fall under the influence of the collective unconscious.  In the end, for me the notion of a national soul has rather limited utility.

[Gator]

I read this thread and thought that I could add something.  Yet nothing crystallized in my head, so I looked up different definitions of soul:

1.  The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.   Because many RW are heathens, this definition is not applicable.

2.  Perfect embodiment of an intangible quality.  If so, what quality?   The most common intangible quality that I have observed among RW is skepticism.

3.  A person's emotional or moral nature.  This presumably is largely manifested in personality and values, which in my experience vary widely among the RW I have known with too little in common to suggest something as pronounced as 'Russian soul.'

4.  A sense of ethnic pride among Black people and especially African Americans, expressed in areas such as language, social customs, religion, and music.  All Americans know this type of soul, yet the concept does not transfer to RW other than social customs (e. g., dress, food).

5.  The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.  I think this is the closest for the purposes of this discussion, yet is there something remarkably different and prevalent among RW who have lived here in America for a few years.

6.  Solea solea. A flatfish found in European waters, aka  Dover sole.  Finally, something I understand.

[sunandsail]

Filet Of Sole.   Delicious.

[SANDRO43]

6.  Solea solea. A flatfish found in European waters, aka  Dover sole.  Finally, something I understand.

In that vein, you should also have added the capital of South Korea .

[Shostakovich]

Filet Of Sole.   Delicious.

Best idea yet.  It's dinner time.

[groovlstk]

When I hear the words "Russian soul" I think of an anecdote I read years ago by a Russian author, and it was in response to a Westerner's complaint about the level of service in Russia. As an example, the author used a suitcase maker - a man who dreamed all his life of being a poet. The suitcase maker intentionally made bad suitcases because, in his mind, he was a poet and if he made good suitcases, well then he'd be a suitcase maker. (At this point the author had the levity to point out that the suitcase maker in his example had never actually written a poem in his life .)