Russian Soul..what is it?

[sunandsail]

But when I visit my home town, people are still more open and benevolent even to strangers. You would go to someone just to say hello and can end having dinner with them. There are plenty cheering examples especially memories from my childhood.

I'm guessing your home town is much smaller than Moscow.

The smaller the town, the more likely this welcoming behavior.   True in US, Canada - and I'll guess Russia too - probably everywhere.   It isn't that the people are different - it is just the natural human reaction to being around million of people vs a few.  You see millions, you're weary about the next person.  You see a few a day - and the next person is a welcome change.

[RussianWind]

The only times I heard The "Russian Soul" line was by Russians marketing performances for tourists.

I would say that the termin "Russian soul" combines all positive and negative cultural features of the majority of the nation. I don't understand why we need to argue about it if everybody understands that Russian people are still very different from American people. Let's invent the termin "American soul"

[GQBlues]

The smaller the town, the more likely this welcoming behavior.   True in US, Canada - and I'll guess Russia too - probably everywhere.   It isn't that the people are different - it is just the natural human reaction to being around million of people vs a few.  You see millions, you're weary about the next person.  You see a few a day - and the next person is a welcome change.

...and in a broader lens, much of it is true when Russia first opened it's borders to international visitors, in tangent the birthing of the MOB. For a while there, foreigners got the sensation and attention of a rock star, only for the natives to eventually realize the John Candy's of the west are anything but musically inclined.

[SANDRO43]

That's it! Borovicka / Slivovica. Deliciously intoxicating!....

In other words, plum brandy .

Slivovitz or Sliwowitz, Bosnian: šljěvovica, Croatian: šljěvovica, Czech: slivovice, Polish: śliwowica, Slovak: slivovica, Slovene: slivovka, Serbian: Шљивовица šljivovica, is a distilled beverage made from Damson plums. It is frequently called plum brandy and, in the Balkans, is part of the category of drinks called rakia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slivovitz

Called palinka in Hungarian:

Palinka (Hungarian, Pálinka; Romanian, Pălincă) is a traditional Hungarian and Transylvanian fruit brandy. It is most often made from various kinds of fruit; the most common varieties are made from plums, pears, or apricots. It may also be made from apples, cherries, mulberries, or quince.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palinka

[LEGAL]

. Let's invent the termin "American soul"

RussianWind we have a term in America its called "AMERICAN GREED" 

[GQBlues]

Have your tongue tasted these delightful Slovakian spirits yet, Sandro?

I'm not much of a drinker as I would get a buzz just from smelling the bottle caps most of the time but I did enjoy drinking these distillates, especially borovicka (berries?). I prefer the apricot over the plum for the slivovica. My other hard liquor preference will have to be tequila. Pilsner and Zlaty are 2 of the top 5 beers I like worldwide. Yeah, a shot of Peppermint Schnapps before that first ski run is also amazing.

I didn't know that palinka/palenka (palenke means 'market' in our language) is the Hungarian equivalent for these, I presume from the Slavonic stem '-palit', meaning 'fire, hot, or burn' (?)

As always, you're a wealth of information, Sandro.

[SANDRO43]

Have your tongue tasted these delightful Slovakian spirits yet, Sandro?

Yes, in a little Hungarian restaurant I discovered some 40 years ago in town .

My favourite was their Barak Palinka (apricot brandy), but they also had plum and cherry brandy, the latter similar to German Kirschwasser. Nice drinks .

[OlgaH]

Let's invent the termin "American soul"

Do we really need to invent?
The American Soul
 http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/books/books.php?id=4088

I would say that the termin "Russian soul" combines all positive and negative .

and many Russian thinkers pointed out that the country's development of full value will be possible only after overcoming of that negative traits.

Why such a huge country with rich neutral resources is actually behind? Is there something mysterious?

Hegel wrote in his work Philosophy of Law that the State is the spirit of the people itself and the state system of a particular nation depends on the nation's nature and maturity of self-consciousness. BTW Slavyanophils used the Hegelian term "Spirit".    

So, threeships, the all that "mystery" of Russian Soul (but better to use probably mentality as Lily mentioned) is very well uncovered in Russian literature and philosophical works and even in Russian folklore that also includes the jokes.

And all that "mystery" comes to a very contradictory Russian nature when ability to work hard is combined with laziness, lack of initiative and weak sense of responsibility, when  practical mind is combined with irrationality and negligence (or mismanagement) and so famous Russian avos' (to do something in a hit-or-miss fashion), when optimism (sometimes so unlimited) is combined with fatalism,  when the anarchic and rebellious spirit is combined with total submissiveness and so on.

One of famous Russian fairytale heroes is Ivan the Fool who gets some kind of mysterious strange orders from Tsar - "to go nobody knows where and to find nobody knows what" and Ivan the Fool is successful in fulfillment of Tsar's orders...

I recall one old Russian joke...  Russians have many jokes about themselves.

Russian  lumberjacks got a chainsaw made in Japan. They cut a birch tree and exclaimed "Wow!", they cut an oak tree and again exclaimed "Wow!". They cut a cedar tree and again exclaimed "Wow!"  Than they tried to cut  a concrete post and of course the chainsaw was broken. They looked at the chainsaw and exclaimed complacently: "A-a-a,  b!tch, you can not do it... and took their axes

   

[threeships]

IMHO, 'Russian soul' would be another term for Russian mentality.

What do you mean under 'transparent' in relation to this notion, I wonder?

I didn’t mean to let the cat out of  bag. hmm...I think this "Russian soul" thing is associated more to altitude than  mentality, “transparent” or not.  I don’t mean this in a derogatory way of course.  People of the former USSR are the most resilient and most forbearing among us.

[facetrock]

What is a Russian soul...I have been informed several times by women that I had to understand the Russian soul to understand them.
I was also told on the other hand it was easy to understand me because I had no soul. Everyone knows America has no soul so it was impossible for me to have one.

 Funny thing is when you ask them to explain the mysterious all knowing magical Russian soul the women look at you as if you were a small child and then explain it cant be described in words. Yeah, that really helps. How the hell are Americans supposed to get a soul if no one will tell us what the damn thing is.

At least we have soul food and soul music. Something the Russians had to import from America.

[Blues Fairy]

What a crap. Never ever heard of people speaking of their soul superior here

I was also told on the other hand it was easy to understand me because I had no soul. Everyone knows America has no soul so it was impossible for me to have one.
Funny thing is when you ask them to explain the mysterious all knowing magical Russian soul the women look at you as if you were a small child and then explain it cant be described in words.

That's the type of arrogance I was talking about, RW.  Your example (quoting me) was a misnomer - a generalization, perhaps, but arrogance?..  I don't think so. 

[OlgaH]

threeships, you have said that you are interested in Russian culture/history, I think the Berdyaev's THE  PSYCHOLOGY  OF  THE  RUSSIAN  PEOPLE. The  Soul  of  Russia would be  interesting reading for you. His work was written in 1915 but still topical  

http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1915_007.html

[OlgaH]

Funny thing is when you ask them to explain the mysterious all knowing magical Russian soul the women look at you as if you were a small child and then explain it cant be described in words.

Maybe they just don't know the words  

We have a Russian saying  : He has heard the ringing but he doesn't know where it came from - he doesn't know what he is talking about

[threeships]

threeships, you have said that you are interested in Russian culture/history, I think the Berdyaev's THE  PSYCHOLOGY  OF  THE  RUSSIAN  PEOPLE. The  Soul  of  Russia would be  interesting reading for you. His work was written in 1915 but still topical  

http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1915_007.html

thank you... I will certainly read it over

[Ludmila]

Threeships, hi, and nice to see you here.

As a matter of fact, this is a fundamental issue. Russia and the Western world.

For a Russian living in US,  and an American living in Russia it is almost impossible not to notice the difference.
Surely, there are many people who do acknowledge the difference. Some focus on everyday, domestic things, some-- on body language, etc.


But it takes a true genius of mind, like a prominent philosopher, with an insight into both cultures to give a detailed, comprehensive, many sided analysis.

The Russian philosopher BERDYAEV, whom Olga has mentioned in an earlier post up the thread is that very philosopher I am talking about.

May be my post on this very topic dating some four months ago will help you to broaden your horizons. I am just copying it for you:




"Guys, I just thought it would be interesting for you to glance and  read  a couple of paragraphs from philosophic observations and thoughts on Russia vs Western World of a Russian prominent philosopher of the 19-th c ( honoris causa---an honorary member --  of Theological Faculty, Cambridge University, England . FYI, other Russian honoris causa were Tchaikovsky and Turgenyev) :

"Western spirit is very rationalized, regulated and organized. Western spirit is " bearing the ''press", the "chains" of civilization.
Russian spirit is free, always remains irrational, unorganized and unregulated. Russian spirit does not observe Western formula/ patterns of life.


Russians have a basic NEED to express their spiritual life. Westerners have a strong NEED  in privacy, a need to be closed to others and stay reserved.

Russians are more sociable, more inclined to communicate, passionately, sharing thoughts and feelings, argue, oppose, etc ( here, I am adding my own thoughts that cyber opportunities are enabling a westerner to communicate in a manner  otherwise unlikely to be used by him in a physical encounter, being under the subconscious press of etiquette and  national traditional mentality -- argueing, enflaming, using endearing words, etc-- what can be easily and  clearly seen on this very forum).

I will stop here. I don't want to burden you more. There are tonnes of interesting observations, research data, conclusions throwing light to deep root causes of spiritual problems, giving answers to more than a few issues that life has  and will inevitably pose ( in this or that form) before you and your Russian soulmates, as well as millions of Russian emigres in the contemporary history."

[Shostakovich]

A very interesting debate.  What is the Russian soul?  A subject we must all ponder deeply, forever, and still end without the slightest clue.  In his exhausting essay, the great intellectual Berdyaev has said many fine things and identified this trend and that but has failed to deliver a concluding message that reveals the mystery at last.  If there is such a thing as the Russian soul that really has a consistent force behind it, rather than being the product of a jumble of conflicting desires, Berdyaev has failed to mine it out. 

My guess is that, at the end of this epic quest we will find no soul, no consistent striving or set of values that unify Russians.  Russia is too big with too long of a history, with this group and that moving in and out through wars and bloody conquests.  My Russian history book tells me that this can be understood from the geogrpahy.  Russia is made of of plains - not many natural features to aid in defenses hence always this group sacking that group, over and over.  In the lack of soul Russia and America are alike.  I find truth in the European criticism of the US when they say it has no culture.  It may not have been so true in the 19th century but it is now.  There are just too many diverse groups - economic rather than cultural forces are what hold the ship on course. 

Berdyaev says "Russians almost seem ashamed, that they are Russians; foreign to them is national pride",  True in the first assertion, false in the latter.  Many Russians I have met seem overly defended, quick to criticize, it shows their insecurity and yet they carry around this treasure they call Russian Pride.  Certainly it is true that, especially in the era after Peter the great that Russia has produced great cultural treasures but it is with some frustration that one encounters that Russian attitude that seems to think that the only cultural products of any value have been produced on Russian soil.  You can see it in the ladies profiles when they proclaim their love of 'Russian classics' - as if no classics were ever produced from Greece, France, Italy, India or Germany.  I'll eat my keyboard when I see the ladies profile who tells of her great love of Thoreau or Emerson.  Russian Pride can be overwhelming but what stands at the core?  I think it's basically something simple - "Be it ever so humble, there is no place like home".  Most people are alike in this.  The French I meet are proud of France, etc., etc.  It's the rare person who transcends domestic identification.

To an outsider Russian behavior may be somewhat difficult to navigate but it comes clear with careful attention.  For our purposes here it's not necessary to understand the whole culture, just one individual from it.  In that the understanding of the general physical, psychological, spiritual and sex differentiated considerations are far more important than the cultural ones. 

Maybe there is something to the notion of a Russian soul but I suspect it could be very much like the Wizard of Oz, who announces itself with great fanfare, yet when the curtain is pulled back one finds just a normal person who only wants to be taken seriously.  Berdyaev just dresses it up as something far more important than is really its due.  In any event I don't think the quest for the Russian soul ranks with the quest for something like the Atman of India - there is no existential treasure in it.  On the other hand I agree with BF - the Russian soul can be used as a proxy to excuse behaviors that, in ones native land one would never stand for:  My childish fits of anger are due to Russian soul, it's just the way we are; we Russians believe in all kinds of superstitions, magic and other nonsense - you must respect these beliefs as they come from my culture; etc. 

At this point I feel I must add the obligatory  so that no one takes offense.  In fact your Shostakovich is really a great fan of Russia and even some Russians - but then again I don't like most Americans either.

[OlgaH]

In his exhausting essay, the great intellectual Berdyaev has said many fine things and identified this trend and that but has failed to deliver a concluding message that reveals the mystery at last.  If there is such a thing as the Russian soul that really has a consistent force behind it, rather than being the product of a jumble of conflicting desires, Berdyaev has failed to mine it out.  

Shostakovich, actually Berdyaev reveals the "mystery" very well and that "mystery" is in contradictory nature of the Russian national soul  that  interferes with progress of developing of the Russian national self-consciousness.

My Russian history book tells me that this can be understood from the geogrpahy.

BTW whole Russian philosophy and literature points out the geographical influence on the formation of Russian national mentality  

[OlgaH]

Berdyaev says "Russians almost seem ashamed, that they are Russians; foreign to them is national pride",  True in the first assertion, false in the latter.  

and at the same time Berdyaev says "Russia -- is the most nationalistic land in the world, a land of unseen excesses of nationalism, of the pressuring of subject nationalities by Russification..."  

and another example of contradiction in Russian national soul

"...all this gives us the right to assert this thesis, that Russia -- is a land of endless freedom and of spiritual distances, a land of wanderers, solitaries and seekers, a land rebellious and harsh in its elementalness, in its Dionysianism amongst the people, with no wish to know forms.

And here also is an antithesis. Russia -- is a land of unprecedented servility and horrid abasement, a land, lacking in the awareness of the rights of the person and not defending the dignity of the person, a land of inert conservatism, of the enslavement of religious life by the state, a land of strong manners and hard on the flesh. Russia -- is a land of merchants, immersed in fleshly burdens, acquisitive, conservative to the point of immobility, a land officials, never overstepping the bounds of their reclusive and morbid bureaucratic kingdom..."

[Shostakovich]

and at the same time Berdyaev says "Russia -- is the most nationalistic land in the world, a land of unseen excesses of nationalism, of the pressuring of subject nationalities by Russification..."  

and another example of contradiction in Russian national soul

"...all this gives us the right to assert this thesis, that Russia -- is a land of endless freedom and of spiritual distances, a land of wanderers, solitaries and seekers, a land rebellious and harsh in its elementalness, in its Dionysianism amongst the people, with no wish to know forms.

And here also is an antithesis. Russia -- is a land of unprecedented servility and horrid abasement, a land, lacking in the awareness of the rights of the person and not defending the dignity of the person, a land of inert conservatism, of the enslavement of religious life by the state, a land of strong manners and hard on the flesh. Russia -- is a land of merchants, immersed in fleshly burdens, acquisitive, conservative to the point of immobility, a land officials, never overstepping the bounds of their reclusive and morbid bureaucratic kingdom..."

All great and wise observations, poetically rendered - but ...

Shostakovich, actually Berdyaev reveals the "mystery" very well and that "mystery" is in contradictory nature of the Russian national soul  that  interferes with progress of developing of the Russian national self-consciousness.

To be a Russian soul it must be a soul that all Russians share.  It is of course possible to have a soul in conflict.  One meets those people from time to time and woe unto them.  But rather I suspect it is that some segments within Russia have sets of values or a soul that differ from other segments within Russia.  Thus Russia does not have a soul in conflict, it is just a big multi-faceted country, much like the US.  I think some countries at certain times could be said to have a soul.  Like pre WWII Germany - hard to imagine the country united in the way it was without a set of values that were more or less consistent across the populace.  For example Hitler would have never gained his foot-hold without an undertone of antisemitism within Germany.  But this is a difficult discussion to be objective about, hence it is perhaps moot.

[OlgaH]

Regarding geographical influence you also  can find  in the Berdyaev's work "About the power of space over Russian Soul" (1914-1918) 

 

[Shostakovich]

Regarding geographical influence you also  can find  in the Berdyaev's work "About the power of space over Russian Soul" (1914-1918) 

 

Glutton for punishment that I am, I'll probably read that one too!

[OlgaH]

But rather I suspect it is that some segments within Russia have sets of values or a soul that differ from other segments within Russia.  Thus Russia does not have a soul in conflict, it is just a big multi-faceted country, much like the US.

Yes, during the whole history of Russia is going process of merging of other nationalities into the country and yes it is a big multi-ethnic society with Russian population about 80% and where the Russian culture is official and prevail due to historical roots  

btw there were studies why  households of Jewish and German immigrants were much stronger than households of Russians though they all were in the same conditions    

 

[Ludmila]

SHOST, SEE MY COMMENTS TO YOUR POST IN UPPER CASE FONT.

A very interesting debate.  What is the Russian soul?  A subject we must all ponder deeply, forever, and still end without the slightest clue.  In his exhausting essay, the great intellectual Berdyaev has said many fine things and identified this trend and that but has failed to deliver a concluding message that reveals the mystery at last.  If there is such a thing as the Russian soul that really has a consistent force behind it, rather than being the product of a jumble of conflicting desires, Berdyaev has failed to mine it out.

 SHOST, PHILOSOPHY ISN'T A HOLLYWOOD MOVIE WITH A HAPPY END, WHERE THE GOOD GUYS BEAT THE EVIL. WHERE YOU GET ALL THE ANSWERS.

BERDYAEV FOCUSES ON THE, SO TO SPEAK, "SUBTLE VIBRATIONS" OF THE PROCESS, CALLED LIFE, AS WELL AS PERSONALITY.

PHILOSOPHY ISN'T A TOURIST EXCURSION, ITINERARY,ETC. PHILOSOPHY IS ABOUT ANALYSIS OF LIFE, ITS DEPTH, MYSTERY-- WHICH WILL NEVER BE SOLVED.

IF YOU DID NOT SUSPECT, FOR SOME PEOPLE LOVE IS A MYSTERY, RELIGIOUS BELIEF IS A MISTERY, HUMAN'S INNER WORLD IS A MYSTERY. SCIENCE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO GIVE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS OF OUR BEING.

 ACCORDING TO BERDYAYEV, THE MYSTERY OF A PERSONALITY WILL NEVER BE EXPLAINED.THE PERSONALITY OF A HUMAN BEING IS MORE MYSTERIOUS THAN LIFE ON THE WHOLE.

AT THE SAME TIME, A HUMAN PERSONALITY IS A MICROCOSM , AND CONTAINS EVERYTHING AND ALL.

 SOUL IS "LYING" MUCH DEEPER IN THE " STRUCTURE" OF A HUMAN BEING, AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WRETCHED BEHAVIORS OF LADIES THAT YOU CAME ACROSS," WHO ASK FOR MONEY", "HAVE ENTITLEMENT ATTITUDE", ARE GOLD DIGGERS, ETC. ALL THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE SOUL.

SOUL IS WHEN YOU FEEL THAT PARTING WITH THE BELOVED ONE IS AKIN TO LITTLE DEATH, WHEN THERE IS A MYSTERY WHETHER YOU WILL SEE THAT PERSON AGAIN ( THERE ISN'T ANY GUARANTEE OF ANYTHING IN THIS LIFE).

SOUL IS WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AT YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR, YOUR GRAY HAIR, GAZE INTO YOUR OWN EYES,AND ONE FINE DAY YOU ASK YOURSELF A QUESTION " FOR THE SAKE OF WHAT ?" ( I HAVE A STRONG SUPPOSITION THAT MADOFF, PROBABLY, DOES NOT).

 SOUL IS WHEN YOU ARE ASKING YOURSELF A QUESTION :" AM I REALLY FREE, OR THEY TELL ME SO?''

SOUL IS PRICKS OF CONSCIENCE, ADMITTING TO YOURSELF, BEING ASHAMED BEFORE YOURSELF, ETC ETC.
 
THAT'S WHAT IS IN QUESTION.
 
 

[Blues Fairy]

The idea that landscapes can influence the formation of a nation's "soul" seems rather wacky.  What about those Russians who have lived in town all their life (as most Russians do nowadays) and haven't had a glimpse of an open field in years?  No soul? 

[Misha]

The idea that landscapes can influence the formation of a nation's "soul" seems rather wacky. 

And, it does not explain very well the differences between Russia and Canada Sure, Russia is still twice as big as Canada, but we have 4 or 5 times fewer people, so if anything, we should be more "Russian" in terms of soul than the Russians themselves if landscape is the main driving force in shaping soul and character  Yet, Canada remains very different from Russia