RWD Commandment #2 - Time to Rethink It?

[Jumper]

Really, not sure how this got so far off-topic, but all I was ever trying to say is that you can (well I can ) get deep enough into a relationship without actually meeting even from even 5,000 miles that having the Back Up Plan w/ another woman demeans both the woman and the potential new relationship.  I'm no stranger to dating (see other thread "Why Try This" if you want my opinion on dating AW), I just ventured here to see if there was another option from what is easily available in the US - I'm assuming that's why ALL of you are here as well - unless you have no option in the US, but that too would be off topic.

I have "met" several woman so far from the FSU (sorry w/ the EU reference earlier) that do seem to have a different perspective on life than the AW I date here.  I've now become close to someone and I want to sincerely give this new relationship a shot.  She is genuine (in that she is who she says she is) plus she was far more wary of me than I was of her initially.  We both did basically a background check on each other before even progressing to video chat.  Neither of us have the time or inclination to have a pen pal or video friend (I'm a single dad, own a business, travel, etc. - she has a pretty high level job by Ukrainian standards, is a single mother and has extended family to care for). 

So after all of this effort, and by effort - I mean TIME and ENERGY - both precious to me.  In fact, I only post here late at night and when I'm out of town as I am now sitting in the airline club waiting on my flight.  To invest this same amount of effort in a Back Up Plan not only seems just basically wrong to me – it would be impossible anyway. And no need to remind me that we haven't "met" yet unless it's important for you to do so – I really do understand that.  However, despite not physically meeting yet, I know more about her already than any woman (or wife) that I ever have at the beginning of a relationship.  Because of my schedule I’m not able to meet her until April, but I’ve made arrangements piggybacking on a business trip and am very much looking forward to it.

So, I guess I have no more opinion to offer here because it is absolutely correct that I have not met her, but I’m fine with the MOWOBUP (Meet One w/o Back Up Plan) and I promise my heart will not be broken if things don’t work out – just disappointed.  At the end of the day, it’s just another trip – but one that seems worthy to me.

 One last question for you guys please – how many of you are happily married to your “back up plan”? 

Thats fine?
Frankly there is no need for the last sentence though .
Of course there is nothing wrong with how you feel?
You've made a choice, and INVESTED yourself in  a relationship.
perhaps wisely..  who can know ? romance is  fickle thing but you've done some time getting to know someone
 and that's great?
 
The commandment you originally posted about,
 did not infer to make a second INVESTMENT in a second relationship. as a backup plan.
You took that meaning yourself, ,one that was never intended.

Even after being told that a backup plan could be as simple as tourism plans,
or  having a  local dating agencies address.

you still take this small shot

One last question for you guys please – how many of you are happily married to your “back up plan”?  

In light of all the alternatives to what  a back up plan can be..the only thing driving such a question , is some moralizing on your part.
why the need to do so?

[spectris]

Because AJ, if you have no moral compass - what do you have?

[Gylden]

Greg,  Not everyone approaches this adventure as a business adventure and no one ever said that a backup plan cannot be another woman, these decisions must be made by each person and fit to their moral views and personality.

Kievstar,  I am sure you are aware of it but I would like to say, there are people who have found their wife in the FSU who didn’t come here before making the journey. You can put me on your list of those who thought they knew, before coming to the forum in a successful marriage.

Spectris,  You can “back pedal” all you want about the commandment, but we will call your B.S. on it every time. In your OP I am sure you were just confused about the fact that a backup plan doesn’t have to be other women. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a moral compass, I am 100% in your camp about this one. I too did WOVO and was very certain about my wife even before we met face to face. My backup plan was to visit an old friend/co-worker and see around a bit if things went sour.

Conclusion:   
1.   The second commandment should stay intact!!    Right??
2.   Use your moral compass to determine WOVO/WMVM (either is ok as long as it fitd to your moral compass)
 

[Jumper]

Because AJ, if you have no moral compass - what do you have?

Well hopefully not self-righteousness?  lol!
Hey , I'll sleep well knowing my own integrity ,ethics, core values,and morality are alive and healthy.

I do not see posters  suggesting  that someone have two(or more) *in-depth* relationships at once ,as a backup plan.

I agree completely with you or anyone else ,(including myself ) to go WOVO if they want!

From here you  seem intent on elevating yourself above some *imaginary friend* whose evil plan is to have in depth pen pal relationships going on with two women !! and going over to meet them without being honest about it  (the cad)

but ignore the multiple suggestions of alternative back up plans , that have nothing to do with your imaginary friend..

So since you have your imaginary friend trapped in one scenario only,and with his moral compass needle bent..!!
, do you feel better now that you are clearly on superior moral high ground than him?

 
For fun lets present another possibility?

 If you went to the FSU on a WOVO trip,
and  have a local agencies address around , just in case  things go wrong between  a couple..?
How is that mistreatment of the other person ?
 
 If you feel that it is living up to some imagined standard to stay involved with someone, who may not like you at all romantically,  and is only acting as  gracious host for the two weeks out of respect?
 They may think of you as a true friend and want to spend time , but they may be simply acting graciously and you wouldnt know.
Then you arn't really being considerate of that host now are you?


So you see?
 Two can play at this  game of *setting up a random scenario *
to support their side of the silly debate?

Perhaps accept not everyone does things exactly the same?
Nor was the commandment written as you interpreted it , and continue to ,despite being given countless illustrations of alternatives.

[GregfromGa]

My wife wasnt a back up plan but she could have been called one I guess. After writing to and going to see another girl, coming home, writing dozens of more letters and lots of phone calls I returned to see her and that's where I accidently ran into my wife. I knew I would never marry the original girl after meeting my now wife of going on 7 years. Now there has been a couple of times in your posts where you eluded to  the experience of dating by the members here and whether FSU girls were our only option. What exactly do you mean by that? Are you trying to say that the majority of members here couldn't find an AW to date? I hate to be the one to break it to you but you talked about being in a relationship with this girl. Until you go meet this girl face to face, you and her are no more than just pen pals. Jerry Seinfeld says your not in a relationship until the nipple makes it's first appearance. There's a lot of truth to those words of his.

[kievstar]

Glyden, my understanding your wife visited you first ?  So I agree there are different methods. I have met more many AM who married RW and they never heard of this forum.  Fact I am not sure I have met anyone in the USA who knows what this forum is.

There are less than 500 active members (contributing) here and many members have not posted in more than a year.   But many men read this forum and never post or register.  Like Greg I have seen many men clueless in Kiev after there cyber girlfriend had no interest after first meeting.  You had your wife visit you so you really have no experience on backup plan.  Your ideas are worth considering but you do not have the actual experience of going to Ukraine to meet your wife. 

[Gylden]

Kievstar,
No actually you understand wrong.
I met my wife in Poland first time. I made the arrangements, because I wanted some neutral place and at the time needed a visa to Ukraine and she needed a visa to Poland which was very easy for her to get. I chose Poland, Warsaw in particular because I have a friend who worked for me in California while he was going to University. Meeting my wife was more of a priority than visiting Ukraine, especially with the thought that she would be moving here. You can speculate that there was an equal chance of her not showing up, especially as I broke one of the other commandments and sent money before meeting her. The difference is that I was VERY sure about her, through the amount of correspondence we had.

Anyway just a short version.
 

[Faux Pas]

Because AJ, if you have no moral compass - what do you have?

Seems to me that you are missing the thrust and the point entirely. This is no moral issue or dilemma. Until you have met this lady you really are nothing more than expedited pen pals. It really doesn't matter how many emails and Skype hours you have logged. You don't "know" her. You can feel like you know everything about her but all you know is what she has told you and what she wants you to know. What you really know is the fantasy you want her to be and so far she has seemingly lived up to it. Spectris, you are displaying common characteristics that indicate you are in love with the idea and fantasy of this lady.

Listen, in all likelihood she is probably a terrific woman. You've apparently determined that and nobody here, that knows what they are talking about, would deny that. That doesn't however mean the chemistry that you have on Skype is going to transfer and carry over into that personal meeting. It is wonderful that you feel so good about this lady and your upcoming meeting. Everyone here warning you really does hope your meeting turns out the way you hope. But, just suppose for a minute after the first date and dinner meeting, one of you does not see a second meeting happening. What will you do with the rest of your time?

[kievstar]

I just read the 10 commandments and I violated a number of them.  But I do think there very good guidance.

Warsaw is a nice city. Good place for a meeting. 

[Jumper]

 I certainly broke plenty of them..
but  still think it's a  good list.

It's like a pirate thing ..

The Commandments, they be  more of a *guideline* matey..
 

[Daveman]

Because AJ, if you have no moral compass - what do you have?

I've been following this thread with a little but of glazed amazement over my eyes.. perhaps that has obscured my vision.  Why exactly would you (possibly? Maybe I misunderstood) consider one's having some kind of backup plan as indicative of a faulty or absent moral compass?

[spectris]

OK, honestly for those of you defending a Back Up Plan as simply something "to do" if Plan A doesn't work out, I'm sorry for bringing it up.  That just seems so obvious to me as to not be necessary to be an actual Commandment considering the context of the other 9.  In retrospect, I suppose the title of this thread should have been "Back Up Woman?" as that is what I was questioning.

And I have certainly not read EVERY post here, but out of curiosity I have read many of the Trip Reports and "Back Up Plans" seem to always refer to alternate women and is commended and encouraged close to 100% of the time by some of the same people commenting here, so please forgive me for missunderstanding.  I guess I missed the posts suggesting the sightseeing tours and museums. 

Anyway, if someone is seriously considering a trip to the FSU or ANYWHERE in the world btw, absolutely YES he/she should definitely have some "plan" (still don't get the "backup part", but...) for what to do if his date goes badly (or if his plane is delayed or his wallet stolen or his cell phone lost or he becomes sick or...).  Geez, if this is really necessary to explain to someone than for God's sake YES it should remain on the list - no argument.  In fact, it should be upgraded to #1.

[Gylden]

Spectris,
Don't feel bad, I made the same EXACT mistake when I first came here. I am pretty sure that there would be no one or almost no one who would go to the FSU or anywhere else for that matter without considering that there might be something that could go wrong and that it is maybe a little smart to keep it in mind when planning such an adventure. God help him if not. But as you have read the posts from guys who have traveled there many times, there are those that do and I repeat God help them, especially because it sounds to me that they are not just boys. I think the real bottom line on this is to not get carried away with romantic thoughts or dreams.
 

[markc444]

 Geez, if this is really necessary to explain to someone than for God's sake YES it should remain on the list - no argument.  In fact, it should be upgraded to #1.

Spectris I would say from my personal experience that it needs to stay on the list.  I am heading over to Siberia next Friday and without this forum and many suggestions from folks...I may not have thought of the backup plan.  Simply because I do not travel much and especially not to meet someone so far away.  If it does not work out I as well will be disappointed because she seems like a lovely lady but not broken hearted as I have just kept the whole relationship in check in mind.  But thanks to all these guys and ladies who were so kind to respond to me I figured yeah...a back up plan is good.  So if in real life we just cant click like we do online and on the phone I am just gonna take a long ride on the Trans Siberian Express from Chita and see a whole lot of Russia in 2 weeks.  No matter what it will be an adventure.  So I am just saying in the end here, don't stop telling folks they need a backup plan because for some of us it takes a little while to sink in but it s nice to have the guidance.  

[Jumper]

Mark,
That is a pretty cool back up plan.

[GregfromGa]

That's a great plan Mark. Hopefully you will not need that train ticket. Also make sure you leave behind that moral compass behind because you never know when you might meet someone special. If things are not going right and you'll know, well make them right by not wasting precious time spinning your wheels. I do wish you the best of luck in this endeavor. Keep us informed because unlike a few here, I don't have all the answers and I'm always willing to listen and learn.

[Simoni]

2. Always have a back-up plan

And absolutely you can develop relationships w/o meeting in person. 

In the pre-internet days when men were apparently working from address lists and agency guides – maybe a BP was appropriate back “in the day” – but its 2010 now. 

It's different in person that it is by letter or phone or skype.  Chemistry just is not always felt face to face like it feels before meeting.  Fascination and fantasy has deluded many a poor man.   

The smart man understands this and has a back-up plan.

[Misha]

So if in real life we just cant click like we do online and on the phone I am just gonna take a long ride on the Trans Siberian Express from Chita and see a whole lot of Russia in 2 weeks.  

Cool! An excellent example of how you can great things in Russia other than drowning tears in beers if things do not work out 

[Jumper]

That's a great plan Mark. Hopefully you will not need that train ticket. Also make sure you leave behind that moral compass behind because you never know when you might meet someone special. If things are not going right and you'll know, well make them right by not wasting precious time spinning your wheels. I do wish you the best of luck in this endeavor. Keep us informed because unlike a few here, I don't have all the answers and I'm always willing to listen and learn.

Greg,
You met your wife ,just in line at a train station right?

[Gylden]

Good luck Mark and good backup plan, I too am learning much from the members here, for example I never really thought that a grown man could actual sit in a bar to drown his sorrows. I thought it was only something for movies and losers.
 

[Shadow]

Anyway, if someone is seriously considering a trip to the FSU or ANYWHERE in the world btw, absolutely YES he/she should definitely have some "plan" (still don't get the "backup part", but...) for what to do if his date goes badly (or if his plane is delayed or his wallet stolen or his cell phone lost or he becomes sick or...).  Geez, if this is really necessary to explain to someone than for God's sake YES it should remain on the list - no argument.  In fact, it should be upgraded to #1.

Spectris one thing I must agree with is that the backup plan does not have to be a plan. To plan every step ahead, including those to take if a step goes wrong, will usually limit your opportunities. When you have a situation, look at it clearly and do what is to you the most logical thing. If you are going to visit more than one woman, that is not a backup plan but a plan. The backup plan is what you need when none of the women turn out to be available.

Mark444.. you mgiht even meet someone on the train. 

[Turboguy]

As far as how many of us are married to our "backup plan"  In reality depending on how you define backup plan most of us are.   

Wouldn't a back up plan be any women we met after the first one who we made the trip to meet, after falling in love with a photo, totally convinced in our heart that this was going to be the woman we would spend the rest of our life with?

Your comment a few pages ago about a back up plan being more important in the pre internet days might have some flaws.   In the pre internet days women not only didn't have internet but they didn't have cell phones.   Back up plans in those days were less important since they were hard to make work.  I am not saying it couldn't be done but only if you were using agencies.

I think the OP brought up an interesting question and perhaps he will get lucky with his first trip as some do.   Usually a few trips when the lady marches you off the plane and directly into the shopping mall where she wants $ 500.00 shoes, or directly into the bar where she wants to start getting drunk at 10 am or when she can only spend limited time with you so her boyfriend doesn't get jealous makes backup plans and WMVM seem more appealing.

[GregfromGa]

Good luck Mark and good backup plan, I too am learning much from the members here, for example I never really thought that a grown man could actual sit in a bar to drown his sorrows. I thought it was only something for movies and losers.
 

Maybe you should get out a little more. Almost every bar I've ever been in has at least one poor bastard with a story he is more than willing to tell. For some reason I think you might be doubting me a little on this. I mean after all I'm the one that said I've met a number of guys in Obriens that went to Kiev to meet some girl and he never showed up. I mean where else would you recommend one go? The most popular expat bar in Kiev seems like a pretty logical place to me. Keeping in mind that I've only been to Kiev about 20 times the past few years, maybe I just got lucky or unlucky and met the only guys while there that this sort of thing has happened to. I'm not talking about guys that went there and things just didnt work out, I'm talking about guys that went there and the girl never shows up at the airport, or the guys shows up and the girl spends a couple of hours with the guy and is always too busy to meet for the next 5 days. I have absolutely no doubt that this sort of thing happens everyday.

[Gylden]

Greg,

Hey, no way I am doubting you, I am sure you have met those guys. I think I am being maybe a little too sharp. To be just straight forward Greg, it is just my view, that a grown man should act like a man and not let something like that get to him in such a big way. From my perspective, if a guy is such a marshmellow, he should probably stay home and find a girl local, as many have said here, this isn't for everyone. I will admit, you won't often find me in the bar, but I do enjoy having a beer with my firends, in fact I hope that one day I run into someone from the forum in Kiev, as I think it would be great to swap stories face to face. (alot like these relationships, just aint the same until the first meeting)
I would like to say though, from what I have read here and the impression I get, you are one hell of a guy and I would want you in my camp if the "s" hit the fan!
 

[GregfromGa]

Well Glyden I appreciate that. I do what I can and I understand what your saying about men being men. I would like to think that if I wrote a girl for 4 months and had sent her money and flowers and chocolate and I went to see her and things went South in a hurry that I would be composed but the fact is I really don't know how I would act. I'm  pretty sure I wouldnt cry in public, maybe in my apartment. LOL...In September a guy from Texas stumbles in to Obriens and bellies up to the bar where we're all standing around, he recognizes my accent and we get to talking. It seems the girl he was supposed to meet and stay with didnt show up. He couldnt find a hotel in the center, he was lost and heartbroken. Luckily we hooked him up with a guy that helped him rent a flat a few doors down from the bar. That happened on my last night in Kiev. Who knows what happened to the guy.

What also happens a lot is these guys will go there and spend a week or two and think that all is well and when they return, the girl breaks it off. Like I said, I got very lucky.