Visa free travel to Europe from Ukraine

[SFandEE]

Read today in the Kyiv Post a quick article on the Foreign Ministry's effort to secure visa free travel for Ukraine to Europe.  What do you think about that?

[Ravens9273]

Ukraine has been trying that for years with no luck. Their chances also will probably get harder to accomplish that considering their newly elected President is more Pro Russia and not for taking Ukraine to the West.

[Mir]

Well at the moment it is just a roadmap and it could be years if ever the road is travelled.

I think they have little hope for a visa free travel but expect agreement on a free visa (no visa fee fro Ukrainians)

[Gylden]

I wouldn't be surprise to see the visa requirement reimplemented for US citizens traveling to Ukraine.

[ECOCKS]

I wouldn't hold my breath for a change on travel into or out of the EU.

[possum]

Don't delude yourself into thinking this has something to do with politics.. In this new brave world, money is king as evidenced by the very existence of the European Union.. Why do you think it's a little easier for Russians, the citizens of the Evil Empire, to get a shengen visa? Because the economy is a little bigger that that of Ukraine, particularly in terms of per capita GDP..

Having said that, the visas will stay in place for both countries for as long as their economies fall short of the European standard.. Too many illegal immigrants from a poor country would mean the collapse of the system.. If the visa restrictions were lifted tomorrow, there would be a mass exodus from Russia and Ukraine that would be devastating for all parties involved..

[Jack]

yea, I agree possum.

Even pro-Russian Yanukovych knows how important the dollar is to Ukraine, no matter if through tourism or Western investments. The visa free Ukraine is certainly going to encourage both.

Putin finally has his puppet, Yanukovych, in place.  I expect we'll see something like a 99 year lease signed between Ukraine and Russia for Russia to maintain it's submarine base in Sevastopol.  This has a real thorn in the side of the Kremlin the last several years as the current lease is coming up for renewal.  Had Yushchenko remained Ukraine's president he had indicated he would not be renewing the lease on the Crimea submarine base. The Kremlin did not like this and as we have seen over the past few years Russia was passing out thousands of Russian passports to Sevastopol residents who said they would rather be Russians.  Just as with Georgia this would have been the reason Russia would have sent troops to Crimea, to protect "it's Russian citizens"  and securing the submarine base wouldn't hurt either.

Anyway with comrade and ex-prison inmate Yanukovych soon to be running the country Putin will not have to use force to get and keep his Sevastopol submarine base.

[Gylden]

Jack,

You are absolutely right, I am sure the lease will be renewed. Not sure about the visa free travel though, maybe, but then why doesn't Russia allow visa free travel? I am just saying it wouldn't surprise me though, not that I am convinced of it.
 

[possum]

but then why doesn't Russia allow visa free travel?

Do I have to spell it out? I don't think Russia should drop the visa requirement unilaterally.. Not to mention, visa-free entry is already available to citizens of certain countries, namely most of the FSU, some South American countries, Cuba, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Israel with Brazil to be added to the list later this year.. Also, the Russian visa is very easy to get compared to the humiliating process of acquiring the US or shengen visa for Russian/Ukrainian citizens.

[Gylden]

Possum,
Do I insult you with my stupidity? What is it that you feel the need to "spell out"?
 
In my post I was asking the question, if Russian politicians feel that there is much to be gained through western tourism/investments, why don't they make visa free entry into Russia? (this is in reference to the election results in Ukraine, with the new pro Russian president)
We all know that if there was easy visa's out of Russia, it would create a problem, but I don't think there would be any mass migration from the west.

[Nat]

I remember that introduction of visa-free entrance was made in terms of the process, which was supposed to make it easier for Ukrainians to get visa to the EU. Since it was introduced, the EU has made visas for Ukrainians more expensive, in order to get them they have to collect more bureaucratic documents and reveal personal information - money flow on their personal accounts (with the numbers of these accounts), copies of documents, which are not supposed to be given to strange people (flat passport, car passport and information about other valuable property). Some countries don't allow to get visa through travel agency, which will collect all the needed papers and apply for visa - you have to go to the embassy personally, even if you live in another city, queue in long lines from 5 a.m. to the evening, and then you can get a visa refusal because you don't have one more paper to prove something, for example, that you spend your money so that you have enough left to travel. Even if they follow all these rules, Ukrainians won't get visa, if the don't book and pay the hotel in advance for the whole trip. They won't be given a visa for the term, which is longer than their booking. So it makes it impossible to travel as civilized people do that - moving from town to town and taking hotels after you can see them and understand that they aren't far from the city center and that the information that was written on the site is adequate.
So, knowing all that, what do you think, should Ukraine keep visa-free entrance for the EU? Does the EU at least somehow follow the terms of the process, within which Ukraine made the entrance visa-free? If Ukraine introduces visas for the EU, can it make terms of receiving visa worse in return?

[Gylden]

Nat,
I think it is just terrible the way it is with visas, my Ukrainian wife had to do just that. Overnight train trips to the embassy in Kiev with incredible amounts of paperwork/translations/apostles etc. It was fortunate that we were prepared and it went good, but it was still plenty of work.
Don't know what the best answer is but certainly it could be better.
 

[possum]

Possum,
Do I insult you with my stupidity? What is it that you feel the need to "spell out"?
 
In my post I was asking the question, if Russian politicians feel that there is much to be gained through western tourism/investments, why don't they make visa free entry into Russia? (this is in reference to the election results in Ukraine, with the new pro Russian president)

I don't believe small scale foreign investments and tourism are a priority for Russia right now.. There are a number of areas where serious foreign money is welcome, such as technical innovations, the energy sector, manufacturing facilities.. none of which fall within the average joe's scope of interest.. Foreign small business initiatives, while not specifically discouraged, are not a priority..

We all know that if there was easy visa's out of Russia, it would create a problem, but I don't think there would be any mass migration from the west.

True, but there would be more people coming with the attitude that Russia is their colony, therefore they can go there whenever they want, do whatever they want, and never have to worry about those pesky Russkies showing up at their door in prosperous Europeland..

[Nat]

Nat,
I think it is just terrible the way it is with visas, my Ukrainian wife had to do just that. Overnight train trips to the embassy in Kiev with incredible amounts of paperwork/translations/apostles etc. It was fortunate that we were prepared and it went good, but it was still plenty of work.
Don't know what the best answer is but certainly it could be better.
 

Was that a visa to the USA? I can tell about those too Your wife was lucky to get it!
My aunt lives in the USA. She often invites her mother and father to visit her, and they've done it several times. Once she decided to invite her brother. He'd just retired at the age of 45 (he had worked as a police officer - economical crimes), had a wife and a small child, good pension, flat in the city center, big good car (Mazda or Chevrolet, I don't remember). I can't say he was wealthy, but he wasn't poor wither. So he collected all the needed papers, paid for visa interview and went to Kiev. He got a refusal. As embassy explained to him, he was a potential immigrant - because he had no job and couldn't afford gong to the USA. Btw, my aunt was an intern doctor in her final year that time and had a decent salary and her husband worked as a doctor too. She provided all the papers that she had bought the ticket for him and that she was going to feed him and care for him while he was in the USA. 2 doctors gave their guarantees that he won't hungry in the USA - but he got a refusal and advice to find a job. A former police officer, who had just retired, and had a good pension, whose wife was working and earning money too, needed to find a job to be able to see his sister in the USA. Well, he managed to find a friend who had a private firm and who gave him a paper, that he's already approved for the job and starts right after his trip to the USA. My aunt also asked a congressmen in the USA to send a letter to embassy and he guaranteed that my uncle wanted wanted to visit his relatives, that he knows them and verifies their words. So he paid for the visa interview once again, collected all the papers once again and went to Kiev to get a visa. Do you think he got the visa? No! He still looked like a potential immigrant for them!
What visa-free entrance to the EU? 

[kievstar]

The people who really want to get into EU from Ukraine can do it easily to live.  There is not going to be some mass exodus. If you look at EU the mass exodus already happened. 

With Euro 2012 coming up there will probably be little change in visa into Ukraine.  They may charge a little more to get the free income as people will come to Euro 2012 not matter the amount of charge in the airport.

Ukraine should impose visa rules the same as other countries do with them.  They do this it will lead to lessened rules into EU.  Russia does this and citizens of Russia have an easier time into EU than Ukraine. 

[Gylden]

Those are real horror stories!!  
My wife's visas all three of them were shengen visas to Norway. It is maybe a better system here, as I provided a letter of invitation for her to visit and made a financial guarantee to the police. In this case if the one who you invite makes trouble they send the inverter a bill.

[ECOCKS]

Nat:

Good to see some reality stories coming out about visas. Too many guys (and gals) get the impression that this is a piece of cake.

Don't know the Russian numbers, but while the percentage of approved applications are improving in Ukraine, there is still a roughly 30% rejection factor. The number is, of course, higher for those younger, single gals but few want to hear it. Equally, there is enough knowledge of the process in Ukraine that some choose not to apply anyway.

One of the more educational things to do when you get to Ukraine is to actually drop by ACS and have a quick discussion with the duty staff. They will freely tell you what flags they look for, questions that trip applicants up and the horror stories of applications that are a waste of time. This goes for both K's and tourist visas.

[Nat]

kievstar, I agree, because if the country doesn't respect itself, nobody will respect it.

[UTRO]

Nat, so true.

My wife applied for 3 Temporary Visas for her to visit her husband in Canada, moi.
She was refused 2 out of the 3 times. The one approval was something unbelievable! It leaves you wondering if you should Hug your country or Kick it in the Ass for all the 'hoops' they make you jump through to obtain a Temporary Visa... application forms, processing fees, photos, my banking information, translated and notarized documents (passport, birth certificate, work record, flat title), my invitation, her employment letter, my employment letter, evidence of funds for travel, my 08' income tax receipt, courier fees....
It's a headache and a heartache, when after all is said and done you are refused.

However, there is the Illegal Immigrant concern which Possum stated.
The problem with all FSU countries is that Corruption does exist in everyday life and within bureaucracy. This is what Western governments have to deal with when when issuing Visas to Russians. Is the paperwork legitimate? Does this bank account exist? Does the person actually have this money or did Papa lend it to her? Is there probable enough reason that she will return before the Visa expires, etc...
In the West, or at least in Canada, we can't 'declare' a lower income. Whatever our yearly issued federal T4 Income tax receipts state we made, is what we made..... in Russia false 'declarations' are made all the time.

So unfortunately, this really isn't a Western made problem that requires Visas from FSU residents. It's a homemade problem.

Would there be an influx of illegal Russians into the West, if Visa restrictions were lifted?
Probably not, but of the 150,000,000 population that exists, even a 2% migration would equal 300,000 people. That would be a lot of Illegal Immigrants to deal with. A major headache.
Canada had to reimpose Visa restrictions on the Czech Republic last year after nearly 3,000 refugee claims were filed since Visa requirement for visitors was lifted in October 2007. That compares with fewer than five claims in 2006.

What can you do?

[Gylden]

Utro,

Yes, there is no easy/simple answer. When Bulgaria and Romania were admitted to the EU there was suddenly an influx of people to the other EU lands and it was very noticeable and made several problems. In the end though it seems to have found some sort of equilibrium.

[Nat]

You know, that's like with American rules on flying in the planes. A lot of normal people are checked, their water is taken away, the aren't allowed to keep their bads with them , and then terrorist checks in for the flight with his passport.
Who has plenty of time to queue in lines, go here and there to embassies and collect papers? People, who have job or who have nothing to do? Who can put a huge amount of money on their accounts? People, who have just a decent salary and actually save money along the year to go on holiday in the summer or those, who are ready to borrow money from somebody just to get a visa? If a person doesn't have job, it means he/she can't travel? Is that a USSR or what? So i don't think it's done against illegal immigration - because illegal immigrants will find time and ways to get a visa even if the terms are quite tough. But those, who earn not much, or those, who have a good salary, but no free time for such trips, are put into such a humiliating situation when they have to spend time and prove they are not criminals.

[UTRO]

You know, that's like with American rules on flying in the planes. A lot of normal people are checked, their water is taken away, the aren't allowed to keep their bads with them , and then terrorist checks in for the flight with his passport.
Who has plenty of time to queue in lines, go here and there to embassies and collect papers? People, who have job?

Oh I agree Nat.

I too, have in the past, lined up at the Russian Consulate in Toronto to apply for a Visa.
Svetlana has told me many stories of trying to obtain Visas for the USA and the UK. Lining up for 8 hours only to have to come back the next day and be told No. Not easy for a Woman who had to take time off of work, travel 24 hours on a train to Moscow from Kirov and back...

Now I too take advantage of Russian Corruption when I apply for a Visa... For $500, I have a Multi-Entry One Year Business Visa. Is states that I work for a Regional Government. I never had to stand in a lineup to get it. If it were only so easy for Russians to do the same for Western Visas.

My Visa to visit my wife whenever I wish, is a Good thing about Corruption....... the Bad, is the Club Fire in Perm that killed 150 people.

[RussianWind]

but then why doesn't Russia allow visa free travel?

Because it is the rules of the game. Once diplomats are expelled, another country will do the same for whatever reason. Medvedev said two years ago that Russia was ready to cancel visas but it should be a reciprocal action. Ushenko sagged to the west but did he gain anything? I doubt. At least Ukraine got good money from tourism (sex tourism too  ) and a good lesson. Did it worth? I dunno, there are pros and cons.

possum, if there were only economical reasons, poor Romania and Hungary shouldn't be ever accepted in the EU.

Nat, I agree the brother looked like a potential immigrant in the eyes of visa officers. If he had no relatives in the US, he had more chances to get his visa how odd it may sound to you.

[UTRO]

But those, who earn not much, or those, who have a good salary, but no free time for such trips, are put into such a humiliating situation when they have to spend time and prove they are not criminals.

Nat, I agree 100% that it is extremely humiliating for Russians and all world citizens that have to go through this process.... and are Legitimate Visitors.

In fact, "Humiliation" is the exact word Svetlana used when I encouraged her to apply for a Canadian Temporary Visa before we were married. She refused to even try. After being subjected to the experience of refusal from the Americans and British, she knew there was little point of trying for a Canadian Visa.
Yet, here was a 30 year old Woman who had a well paying job, a mortgage free flat, had visited the UK and USA as a student, had visited numerous countries including, Hungary, Germany (2), Czech Republic, Finland, Turkey (2), Dominican Republic (2), Jamaica and Egypt, and had been granted several Single and Multiple entry Schengen Visas.

Even though she returned to Russia each and every time, it still didn't matter.

I understand your frustration

[RussianWind]

who had a well paying job

Define a "well paying job" please